Author Topic: Why I am no longer supporting Invictus-Innovations  (Read 18417 times)

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Offline cogitativecurve

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it doesn't matter who mines them it matters who holds them while they appreciate.  Most of the major miners out there must turn around and sell their PTS to cover their expense

That's where you're wrong. It DOES matter who mines them. Because if you get 10,000 small guys mining a bit and making some coin they'll stick around and support your project. If you get 10 guys sucking up all the resources with vast cloud mining pools you'll have nobody to support you. As soon as the financial opportunity dries up those 10 guys will dump their PTS and move on. You'll end up being the leader of a broken down crypto experiment that nobody cares about any more.

If you don't get the wide base of supporters in the beginning your project is doomed. I hope you figure out some way to make it work. Maybe on the next DAC you should focus all your efforts on trying to make it accessible to the millions of CPU miners at home who don't want to compete with botnets. Figure out a way to block cloud miners and botnets and you'll become the king of cryptos.

what do you think dumping means?
it means selling to other people: the new supporters

Two profound observations:

1.  We would love to please everybody.
2.  You can't please everybody.

Everybody has a different definition of "fair", usually meaning "what works best for them."

The momentum algorithm was the result of a lot of R&D and bounties to come up with a "more fair" solution and to achieve the goal of maximum decentralizationOur Prime Directive.  Maximum decentralization inherently means "benefit the little guys".

We will continue to search for better ways to achieve this goal and sponsor bounties to stimulate community research toward that end.

But this is an arms race.  People with great resources will always find a way to out-compete those who don't.  Every move we make will have counter moves.  We will then make counter-counter moves. 

Because Distributed Autonomous Corporations are not incorruptible if they are not distributed and autonomous.

Centralization is the enemy of everything we stand for. 
And fighting it is more important to us than personal wealth.
+++++++++++++++++++1111111!1
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Offline smiley35

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I know I got to this thread late but in response to the OP,

You are entitled to your opinion... Then leave.... I am sticking around, I believe in Dan and Invictus I have invested in protoshares, and I plan to sink another 200+ btc into angle shares in the coming months. I believe in the vision, I've seen bytemaster's history both in general and on DAC's (bitcoin included) and I believe he is the man to pull this off, and I'm behind this team until it succeeds or crashes and burns. It's to bad you don't feel the same OP but I wish you the best of luck. Dan n team.... I am amazed by the idea's put forth in this forum on a daily basis. I have not been this excited since I discovered bitcoin. Cheers

(fap fap fap I know, I should post this to r/circlejerk)

Offline cogitativecurve

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In a number of current articles at LetsTalkBitcoin.com we have documented our definition of what constitutes a true Distributed Autonomous Corporation (DAC). You can find them on the links tab at Invictus-Innovations.com

Invictus Innovations, INC is a flesh and blood company subject to all of the risks and regulations of the jurisdictions in which we operate.  We are highly distributed by design, but we are not autonomous and do not have DAC-like immunity to coercion from the Powers That Be.  We remain Invictus Innovations, INC.  ProtoShares might in some ways be viewed metaphorically as Invictus, DAC.

I love the careful wording. For instance, the word "metaphorically" dismisses any mutually inclusive elements between what is "real" and what is "virtual".

By the way, I liked what you wrote about definitions in your "social consensus" post, as well. I'm trying to find that post right now. I'm in the middle of reading "Ethics of Liberty"...remarkable content! I found chapter 19 "Property Rights and Theory of Contracts" particularly intriguing. It brings up the idea of a broken promise not being indictable if theft of property did not take place in some form. So, I like also how you keep things tentative so as to not have evidence of unfulfilled promises. Invictus has held true on both counts. It has not only avoided any kind of theft, but has done quite the opposite, evidenced by my free Memory Coins. And, it has not broken any promises due to keeping everything voluntarily transparent and tentative, rather than stating absolutes about the future.

The original post seems unmitigated and unsubstantiated.
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Offline earthbound

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[Quite belated as this may be, nevertheless . . .]

First, a personal note, and then I'll try to back away and take a more neutrally observant tone.

Most of my ProtoShares have now been invested in a Keyhotee Founder ID, and will probably next go towards AngelShares, but dude, for whatever it's worth, yes I see your pain (I hope I even feel it--Lord knows I've had some serious misfortune in my days), but I can't nary do a thing for it. Well, maybe I can throw some shreds of specks of PTS your way. I'd recommend anyone else to do the same (or even send you a lot of PTS, if they can) just to buy back your support :)

Second, there's an underlying silly, prima facae idea here, that if choices made by one (or many) lead anyone else to misfortune, it could only mean the misfortune was intended by the one (and that the one should be regarded guilty unless proven innocent). This position is unreasonable, because it simply discards the self-evident truth that people in general have good will, so that it is usually more reasonable to assume or hope that others meant well, even if they could not always do as well as others hope.

But on balance, it seems to be Invictus is doing a lot of good and creating a lot of value, and if in the mix they make errors (it is safest to assume), doesn't that mean that they are . . . human?

(And, quite topically, not robots?)

Now, that said . . .

I'm astonished. Herein was an argument which both accused of ill-willed manipulation, and in the same breaths, with quite the very same ill-will it accused others of, proposed somehow forcibly excluding others (cloud miners) from a market?

(By "the very same ill-will," I refer to the manifest ill-will toward cloud miners.)

And trying to exclude a whole class of investors wouldn't be ill-willed manipulation?*

And this quite hypocritical proposal, at the same time an aspersion of hypocrisy is thrown out?

What?!

Swallowed up as it is in pain, this argument doesn't even see that it proposes exactly the same kind of inequality which it (erroneously) accuses others of deliberately creating.

On the principle of equality, Mr. Lincoln and his supporters were very insightful. I recommend a watch of the film "LINCOLN." Therein is a performance of a venerable Statesman, who argued that the phrase " . . . all men are created equal . . . " should not be taken to mean that all men are equally great. He properly insulted the racist ill logic of a Statesman (whom he opposed), by saying his opponent is proof that all men are not created equal (or in other words, his opponent is a small-minded fool). He argued rather that the phrase speaks of equality before the law, or in other words, it means that the principle of law (and the human rights it defends) should have equal application to all men.

(This argument was evidently one of the influences that led to the abolition of slavery.)

What does this have to do with anything here? Well, an argument which was had here sought to enforce unequal opportunity on others, to recompense for a supposed wrong.

That kind of argument will always beget misery.

The fact is that life is unfair. Men are not created equal (in greatness, and in resources, etc.), but men do have a right to be given equal opportunity. These two facts must logically lead to the conclusion that, assuming a level playing field, those who invest their resources more wisely will come out ahead. It also means that brutal chance may dish a good deal to one and a bad deal to another. In other words, everyone has equal opportunity for either fortune or misfortune--you can never predict what kind of misfortune will befall anyone. It can happen to anyone and everyone.

Where circumstance has dealt misfortune, pointing fingers (seeking to blame anyone--and thereby forming a supposed pretext to create inequality against them--which is vengeful, by the way) isn't going to go anywhere other than somewhere miserable. Granted, misery is a strangely comforting place, because at least a miserable person can safely predict to themselves that they will not so enthusiastically prepare for future opportunities, where they could be exposed to risk and be possibly hurt again.

Serious shit happened to Batman, but he got back up! :)

*And how the hockeysticks would any design even block cloud miners? So not worth it. A system should allow equal access to all participants, regardless of how much or how little power those participants wield. Otherwise, it simply isn't equal. Those who put in greater resources will probably get greater returns, but ideally, those with less resources can get a similar return (proportionally) for their smaller investment. And look around! Just today, someone unleashed a GPU POW miner, which apparently only increases returns four-fold (ish), where previous algorithms were simply decimated by GPUs. If going to all the trouble of designing and open-sourcing an algorithm which, at least, people are having a much harder time "cracking" for an unequal advantage--if that isn't proof of good will, I don't know what is.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2013, 05:26:04 am by McGreedy »
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Offline Stan

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it doesn't matter who mines them it matters who holds them while they appreciate.  Most of the major miners out there must turn around and sell their PTS to cover their expense

That's where you're wrong. It DOES matter who mines them. Because if you get 10,000 small guys mining a bit and making some coin they'll stick around and support your project. If you get 10 guys sucking up all the resources with vast cloud mining pools you'll have nobody to support you. As soon as the financial opportunity dries up those 10 guys will dump their PTS and move on. You'll end up being the leader of a broken down crypto experiment that nobody cares about any more.

If you don't get the wide base of supporters in the beginning your project is doomed. I hope you figure out some way to make it work. Maybe on the next DAC you should focus all your efforts on trying to make it accessible to the millions of CPU miners at home who don't want to compete with botnets. Figure out a way to block cloud miners and botnets and you'll become the king of cryptos.

Amen.  ;)
+1
Protoshare will becomes a pseudo-centralize currency!
A centralized or even pseudo-centralized currency is something we want to avoid.

Which is the whole point of our proposed Alternative DACs experiment for PowerBall, DAC.
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline AJ_

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it doesn't matter who mines them it matters who holds them while they appreciate.  Most of the major miners out there must turn around and sell their PTS to cover their expense

That's where you're wrong. It DOES matter who mines them. Because if you get 10,000 small guys mining a bit and making some coin they'll stick around and support your project. If you get 10 guys sucking up all the resources with vast cloud mining pools you'll have nobody to support you. As soon as the financial opportunity dries up those 10 guys will dump their PTS and move on. You'll end up being the leader of a broken down crypto experiment that nobody cares about any more.

If you don't get the wide base of supporters in the beginning your project is doomed. I hope you figure out some way to make it work. Maybe on the next DAC you should focus all your efforts on trying to make it accessible to the millions of CPU miners at home who don't want to compete with botnets. Figure out a way to block cloud miners and botnets and you'll become the king of cryptos.

Amen.  ;)
+1
Protoshare will becomes a pseudo-centralize currency!
A centralized or even pseudo-centralized currency is something we want to avoid.
Protoshares- PiiX21df7kfDAhLzmSBdbuc7kwjFaki79L
Keyhotee-5QdZUBn6BLpc7xqTkZ6nVwh83k8GbsaRMvy5kdEczgfV2tcaQr
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Offline Lighthouse

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Oh he's implying people cloud mining now will take a loss because the price went down from the recent highs?   Yeah, the cost of cloud mining is less than $4 per PTS, the price is high because most people would rather hold for the first payout than sell for these low valuations.   Just because a thing is undervalued doesn't mean the price goes straight up to the correct level, look at how long it's taking people to figure out how valuable Bitcoin is - Protoshares is where Bitcoin was three years ago, covered those first two years in about two weeks!
Before you say the price of PTS is too high, take a look at theThe Reason.  Protoshares are an entirely new type of Cryptocurrency, one that pays to hold.

Offline bytemaster

I hear you guys with 3000+ vps accounts were pulling in 250pts/hour. Let me tell you what happened here. Greed overcame logic and you lost out on your gamble. Everyone knows that alt coins, even bit coins are not a sure thing. Good luck recovering you losses. I'm sure glad I didn't have coinlust at the time and did something stupid like I did a few months ago..  :o

Live and learn...

From what I can see btc38 is still trading above $9 and the current price on coingrounds of around $6 still covers cloud computing mining costs.   
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline Lighthouse

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I hear you guys with 3000+ vps accounts were pulling in 250pts/hour. Let me tell you what happened here. Greed overcame logic and you lost out on your gamble. Everyone knows that alt coins, even bit coins are not a sure thing. Good luck recovering you losses. I'm sure glad I didn't have coinlust at the time and did something stupid like I did a few months ago..  :o

Live and learn...

What are you talking about?
Before you say the price of PTS is too high, take a look at theThe Reason.  Protoshares are an entirely new type of Cryptocurrency, one that pays to hold.

Offline MisO69

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I hear you guys with 3000+ vps accounts were pulling in 250pts/hour. Let me tell you what happened here. Greed overcame logic and you lost out on your gamble. Everyone knows that alt coins, even bit coins are not a sure thing. Good luck recovering you losses. I'm sure glad I didn't have coinlust at the time and did something stupid like I did a few months ago..  :o

Live and learn...

Offline udeluxe

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At least we all seem to agree that continued efforts to enfranchise the "little guy" are critically important.  We will continue to sponsor research to do just that.

^^ this is absolutely crucial. people will rapidly lose interest in watching an 100x accelerated bitcoin where the vast majority of the wealth has already been siphoned off by those with access to cloud compute clusters and botnets. meanwhile mining collecting 0.2 a day whilst people selling 10k at a time..wtf? what a turn off!! how can it feel like completely missing the boat at such a short time after official launch, is that right?

left to pick up a pizza crumbs @ 10x price from mere fortnight ago, hoping there is a someone with bigger greed out there to allow them to earn, it needs to be more than that cause it's just depressing to see such a disparity already.

This had potential, hope it can still turn things around.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 12:38:49 pm by udeluxe »

Offline stuartcharles

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I don't really understand the point in moaning. Even if you start today mining pts today its way more profitable than feather coin or litecoin (which i also mine).

We all know from btc to pts this is all a gamble. My advise is try and get a small piece from as many of the pies as you like the look of. Forget moaning, we are all likely to win in the end. (group hug!)

Offline td services

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I too was caught off guard with the sheer resources thrown into mining at the outset. Evidently there were already highly skilled CPU miners with experience from Primecoin who were able to rapidly deploy and optimize. This wasn't very evident from the discussion and level of interest appearing in the forums for the few of months leading up to the launch. My main interest was the decentralized p2p direct trading being developed with Bitshares. The plan of favoring CPU mining over GPU and ASIC was very appealing to me. I did not expect cloud mining to actually be viable.

I've had to pivot from mining to purchasing on the markets, and just treat it like investing in pre-mined coin in a very promising, innovative project. I would rather have seen the money go to funding development on the project, like the Mastercoin launch, than to mass miners. Overall, I also think there is a huge potential in this project, I'm glad to see the founders have still managed to end up with a large enough stake to encourage them to keep working on it.

Offline Stan

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it doesn't matter who mines them it matters who holds them while they appreciate.  Most of the major miners out there must turn around and sell their PTS to cover their expense

That's where you're wrong. It DOES matter who mines them. Because if you get 10,000 small guys mining a bit and making some coin they'll stick around and support your project. If you get 10 guys sucking up all the resources with vast cloud mining pools you'll have nobody to support you. As soon as the financial opportunity dries up those 10 guys will dump their PTS and move on. You'll end up being the leader of a broken down crypto experiment that nobody cares about any more.

If you don't get the wide base of supporters in the beginning your project is doomed. I hope you figure out some way to make it work. Maybe on the next DAC you should focus all your efforts on trying to make it accessible to the millions of CPU miners at home who don't want to compete with botnets. Figure out a way to block cloud miners and botnets and you'll become the king of cryptos.

what do you think dumping means?
it means selling to other people: the new supporters

Two profound observations:

1.  We would love to please everybody.
2.  You can't please everybody.

Everybody has a different definition of "fair", usually meaning "what works best for them."

The momentum algorithm was the result of a lot of R&D and bounties to come up with a "more fair" solution and to achieve the goal of maximum decentralizationOur Prime Directive.  Maximum decentralization inherently means "benefit the little guys".

We will continue to search for better ways to achieve this goal and sponsor bounties to stimulate community research toward that end.

But this is an arms race.  People with great resources will always find a way to out-compete those who don't.  Every move we make will have counter moves.  We will then make counter-counter moves. 

Because Distributed Autonomous Corporations are not incorruptible if they are not distributed and autonomous.

Centralization is the enemy of everything we stand for. 
And fighting it is more important to us than personal wealth.

+1

At least we all seem to agree that continued efforts to enfranchise the "little guy" are critically important.  We will continue to sponsor research to do just that.
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline sonulrk

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it doesn't matter who mines them it matters who holds them while they appreciate.  Most of the major miners out there must turn around and sell their PTS to cover their expense

That's where you're wrong. It DOES matter who mines them. Because if you get 10,000 small guys mining a bit and making some coin they'll stick around and support your project. If you get 10 guys sucking up all the resources with vast cloud mining pools you'll have nobody to support you. As soon as the financial opportunity dries up those 10 guys will dump their PTS and move on. You'll end up being the leader of a broken down crypto experiment that nobody cares about any more.

If you don't get the wide base of supporters in the beginning your project is doomed. I hope you figure out some way to make it work. Maybe on the next DAC you should focus all your efforts on trying to make it accessible to the millions of CPU miners at home who don't want to compete with botnets. Figure out a way to block cloud miners and botnets and you'll become the king of cryptos.

Amen.  ;)
+1
Protoshare will becomes a pseudo-centralize currency!