Author Topic: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement  (Read 220859 times)

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Offline onceuponatime

Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #87 on: December 01, 2014, 04:41:26 am »

Just for shits and giggles lets say BTC decided to change to DPoS in an effort to save itself. How would they do that? Who are "they"? What would be the mechanics of such an upgrade?

How would it differ from what's happening to PTS?

I have a hard time following virtual concepts (as you know)... What are you saying? That 'they' will do it exactly like this?
Or was it a question?

A bit of both I guess. The effort of PTS to change over to DPoS had me thinking about how BTC would change over. We all want to see that happen but how would that actually work?

I'm guessing it would be a fork with pages and pages on bitcointalk just like this thread of the diehards saying you can start a new coin on DPoS but don't call it Bitcoin. So who would have to weigh in to sway the community? Would Gavin be enough? What about all five of the core devs? What if they can't and then there are two "real" Bitcoin chains?

The bottom line is that an upgrade to a crypto is like any other software upgrade. Anyone can still run Windows 98 and Office 97. I think the big difference is that Microsoft is recognized as the owner and sole feature developer. Who owns a crypto?

Tony alsready told you:

It as all lies - it is not "Same coin, same name, same allocation, same exchanges, with only one simple upgrade.'

It is a share drop on my coin - PTS.

Thanks, btw.

Offline Riverhead

Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #86 on: December 01, 2014, 04:34:02 am »

Just for shits and giggles lets say BTC decided to change to DPoS in an effort to save itself. How would they do that? Who are "they"? What would be the mechanics of such an upgrade?

How would it differ from what's happening to PTS?

I have a hard time following virtual concepts (as you know)... What are you saying? That 'they' will do it exactly like this?
Or was it a question?

A bit of both I guess. The effort of PTS to change over to DPoS had me thinking about how BTC would change over. We all want to see that happen but how would that actually work?

I'm guessing it would be a fork with pages and pages on bitcointalk just like this thread of the diehards saying you can start a new coin on DPoS but don't call it Bitcoin. So who would have to weigh in to sway the community? Would Gavin be enough? What about all five of the core devs? What if they can't and then there are two "real" Bitcoin chains?

The bottom line is that an upgrade to a crypto is like any other software upgrade. Anyone can still run Windows 98 and Office 97. I think the big difference is that Microsoft is recognized as the owner and sole feature developer. Who owns a crypto?

« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 04:44:09 am by Riverhead »

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #85 on: December 01, 2014, 04:21:13 am »

Just for shits and giggles lets say BTC decided to change to DPoS in an effort to save itself. How would they do that? Who are "they"? What would be the mechanics of such an upgrade?

How would it differ from what's happening to PTS?

I have a hard time following virtual concepts (as you know)... What are you saying? That 'they' will do it exactly like this?
Or was it a question?

Offline Riverhead

Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #84 on: December 01, 2014, 04:07:39 am »

Just for shits and giggles lets say BTC decided to change to DPoS in an effort to save itself. How would they do that? Who are "they"? What would be the mechanics of such an upgrade?

How would it differ from what's happening to PTS?

Offline Empirical1.1

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #83 on: December 01, 2014, 02:38:13 am »
I would recommend an announcement in the Chinese forum too, I suspect they're the bigger market.
I really like the PTS website too... http://www.ptscrypto.com/

Is there a basic Chinese website translation planned?

should also be the "evolution of crypto-equities" instead of "the evolution of money".  Nice site overall though.


Imo, BitShares is a crypto-equity that changes it's supply based on the value of opportunities. PTS is a 'Crypto-money', it has no inflation on a profitable blockchain, with 10 second, anonymous, cheap transactions. As a pure crypto-currency it's far superior to Bitcoin imo even though it won't challenge BitShares.

Yep. I think they should merge the PTS and AGS and cut the supply in half.  Make is a Berkshire Hathaway it far more valuable and thereby fixing the issues ags holders have with this.  Best way to go.
It ties up every loose end you guys have and attracts wealthy crypto investors because it is a great mechanism for diversification by default for basic investors and it is a new frontier for crypto trading.

AGS is still there exactly as it was for anyone who finds value in that demographic. PTS DPOS is just a 100% snapshot of a dying PTS POW. Whether many third parties want to honour it with snapshots will have to be seen. The PTS price certainly seems to be reacting positively to it, though there were not major sell walls before.

Offline ticklebiscuit

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #82 on: December 01, 2014, 02:24:27 am »
I would recommend an announcement in the Chinese forum too, I suspect they're the bigger market.
I really like the PTS website too... http://www.ptscrypto.com/

Is there a basic Chinese website translation planned?

should also be the "evolution of crypto-equities" instead of "the evolution of money".  Nice site overall though.


Imo, BitShares is a crypto-equity that changes it's supply based on the value of opportunities. PTS is a 'Crypto-money', it has no inflation on a profitable blockchain, with 10 second, anonymous, cheap transactions. As a pure crypto-currency it's far superior to Bitcoin imo even though it won't challenge BitShares.

Yep. I think they should merge the PTS and AGS and cut the supply in half.  Make is a Berkshire Hathaway it far more valuable and thereby fixing the issues ags holders have with this.  Best way to go.
It ties up every loose end you guys have and attracts wealthy crypto investors because it is a great mechanism for diversification by default for basic investors and it is a new frontier for crypto trading.

Offline islandking

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #81 on: December 01, 2014, 02:10:16 am »
No, I said if you are upgrading you should kill (as in burn) the previous coins. The rest is a mere sharedrop on PTS.
If you do not burn it, it is not your place to decide if it lives or dies..it is not up to you to decide.


Nobody here feels "defrauded" by securing their funds and upgrading to a sustainable consensus protocol, which is all we are doing. If I can't convince you that we're adding value here then you are free not to invest.
Ohh, well I am invested as we speak. You are sharedroping on me....and having some strong opinions on my coin as well... I do not mind the sharedrop, all I am saying is you have no right to say my coin 'will die' after you do your sharedrop.

Ok, I think I understand what you are saying now. Unfortunately there is no mechanism for actually "killing" a decentralized currency (this is by design). Proof of burn is an interesting concept, but ultimately infeasible for a hard fork upgrade (same reason why it was not used in creating BTS or in any hard fork upgrade of any crypto ever). For example, I could create delegates and start mining on the old BTSX chain relatively easily today but that doesn't mean that BTSX isn't dead. Consensus is what ultimately "kills" the coin - just like it did with the dozen different BTSX "coins" before BTS. Fortunately for us, PTS is literally dying on its own, so it probably doesn't need any help from us.

Since you are a PTS holder I imagine you will be quite happy with the result. ;)

Is 190 too high for PTS or does it have potential to go higher?
I've been working on a new electronic cash system that's fully peer-to-peer, with no trusted third party. - Satoshi

Offline alphaBar

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #80 on: December 01, 2014, 02:05:37 am »
No, I said if you are upgrading you should kill (as in burn) the previous coins. The rest is a mere sharedrop on PTS.
If you do not burn it, it is not your place to decide if it lives or dies..it is not up to you to decide.


Nobody here feels "defrauded" by securing their funds and upgrading to a sustainable consensus protocol, which is all we are doing. If I can't convince you that we're adding value here then you are free not to invest.
Ohh, well I am invested as we speak. You are sharedroping on me....and having some strong opinions on my coin as well... I do not mind the sharedrop, all I am saying is you have no right to say my coin 'will die' after you do your sharedrop.

Ok, I think I understand what you are saying now. Unfortunately there is no mechanism for actually "killing" a decentralized currency (this is by design). Proof of burn is an interesting concept, but ultimately infeasible for a hard fork upgrade (same reason why it was not used in creating BTS or in any hard fork upgrade of any crypto ever). For example, I could create delegates and start mining on the old BTSX chain relatively easily today but that doesn't mean that BTSX isn't dead. Consensus is what ultimately "kills" the coin - just like it did with the dozen different BTSX "coins" before BTS. Fortunately for us, PTS is literally dying on its own, so it probably doesn't need any help from us.

Since you are a PTS holder I imagine you will be quite happy with the result. ;)

Offline Empirical1.1

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #79 on: December 01, 2014, 01:46:10 am »
Someone is buying up the entire orderbook for PTS.  Looks like someone is bullish.

I think PTS is quite slow so anybody who wants to sell at these prices will probably be waiting a while to get PTS onto bter to sell, so I don't know if these prices will be maintained. I'm not a seller though.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 01:57:12 am by Empirical1.1 »

Offline islandking

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #78 on: December 01, 2014, 01:35:33 am »
Someone is buying up the entire orderbook for PTS.  Looks like someone is bullish.
I've been working on a new electronic cash system that's fully peer-to-peer, with no trusted third party. - Satoshi

Offline fran2k

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #77 on: December 01, 2014, 01:33:03 am »
"Upgrading PTS to DPOS has been planned for a long time, only nobody at I3 had the time to do it."
     If this was the intent of I3 then why did they very deliberately kill BitsharesPTS in order to merge it's value into BTS?

"From a purely technical perspective of course we're starting a new chain with a genesis block based on a snapshot from the old chain. There's really no other way to do it." 
     You want to start a new social consensus blockchain based on the Bitshares toolkit and airdrop on former PTS holders..that's it in a nutshell. That part I have no problem with. The problem is you state that future DAC's using the Bitshares toolkit are "invited" to honor your new social consensus but why would they? Because you have fraudulently called yourself the "new" BitsharesPTS. This looks like a copy and paste, pump and dump trading off a dead coin's brand and hijacked name...crypto coat-tail riding. And your response it "there's no other way to do it?".

"You can stay on the PoW chain and see where it leads. Most likely it won't lead anywhere but simply stop in its tracks."
     THAT WAS THE INTENTION. That was the whole purpose of merging PTS, AGS and all the others. So that there would be one place to snapshot for future DAC's wanting to honor the social consensus. BTS is what represents the Bitshares community not what you're doing. Your blockchain might have a use to some other crypto community but we are already united behind BTS.

"Therefore, the upgrade is mandatory from an economical perspective."
    That's like saying "here, I'm going to give you some free crypto in my new unrelated blockchain and you should take it because it's mandatory from an economic perspective." Try to understand, you are not updating PTS, PTS is DEAD..thus you are not adding value to it, because it no longer exists. It's value has been transferred to BTS. You are squatting on the name.

One final thing. You used the Bitshares toolkit to make your blockchain but are you honoring AGS holders? If not, you are violating the social consensus you purport to uphold.

Thanks, mostly agree also on that.
Witness: rmglab /// Buenos Aires BTS Meetup http://www.meetup.com/es-ES/BitSharesBA/ /// [old BTS 1.0 chain] Delegate bitshares-argentina (ex argentina-marketing-matt608) Thread https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,15781.0.html

Offline toast

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #76 on: December 01, 2014, 01:08:48 am »
Tony has a point that it is a different coin until there is consensus otherwise.

I'm confident alphabar can change the consensus. Not convinced that it's very valuable or worth precious dev hours, but that's a different conversation.

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #75 on: December 01, 2014, 01:02:02 am »

Tony, there is no other choice. The PoW chain is dying or already dead. If you think a protocol change is "unethical" then you should be objecting to every one of the hard forks that BTS has had over the past few months because those are technically a "new coin" as well (not really). To state that the only "ethical" solution is to let PTS die is just bizarre. We're working hard to add value to the Bitshares ecosystem, and most of us are invested heavily in BTS as well. Nobody here feels "defrauded" by securing their funds and upgrading to a sustainable consensus protocol, which is all we are doing. If I can't convince you that we're adding value here then you are free not to invest.

You (as usual) are not answering what I said, but just saying random stuff.

To state that the only "ethical" solution is to let PTS die is just bizarre
No, I said if you are upgrading you should kill (as in burn) the previous coins. The rest is a mere sharedrop on PTS.
If you do not burn it, it is not your place to decide if it lives or dies..it is not up to you to decide.


Nobody here feels "defrauded" by securing their funds and upgrading to a sustainable consensus protocol, which is all we are doing. If I can't convince you that we're adding value here then you are free not to invest.
Ohh, well I am invested as we speak. You are sharedroping on me....and having some strong opinions on my coin as well... I do not mind the sharedrop, all I am saying is you have no right to say my coin 'will die' after you do your sharedrop.

Offline donkeypong

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #74 on: December 01, 2014, 12:54:17 am »
* After the upgrade, a complete rebrand.

Call it Dogecoin 2.0 and let the madness begin.

such dpos. much titan. many dac. wow.

 :P

That's actually brilliant. They had DogeParty also.  What else would get their attention? DogeOrgy? DogeBingeFest?

Offline alphaBar

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Re: [ANN] BitShares PTS Mandatory Upgrade & Snapshot Announcement
« Reply #73 on: December 01, 2014, 12:40:09 am »
Will the spark snapshot be on this new chain?

No, spark snapshot will be taken at same time from old PTS (last block of PTS at December 14, UTC).

Therefore it is incumbent upon the new PTS team to make sure that the old PTS are not tradable after the December 14 snapshot.  I know there are people out there that will try to sell the old PTS after the snapshot to unsuspecting people who have not heard about the new PTS. 

This strikes me as highly unethical, even fraudulent, behavior and therefore it is sure to happen.

You should do all you can to prevent it from happening as well as warning all involved.

This is your biggest argument for the exchanges to treat this as a chain upgrade and discontinue the old one at the same time.  They won't want to collect fees in trading the old PTS known to be worth zero after the snapshot, so this would be in their best interest.

And you certainly don't need this controversy for your new PTS reputation.

Actually the unethical behavior is on the part of PTS 2.0 (or whatever the alphaBar's PTS is called).... they can not claim they will be the only PTS after they sharedrop on PTS... Hell it is not their chain to do whatever with it -they have no legal or moral right to inform exchanges to not  honor/declare dead after their sharedrop or whatever else they like doing to it.


The block production is REALLY slow with the current implementation of PTS, which I think was the main argument against proof of burn as a way to claim new DPOS PTS. It'd be lovely if someone could think of a way to use proof of burn.

Is there no way that the snapshot could be taken, as announced, in order to allocate new DPOS PTS, but then only release the new funds after old PTS is sent to a proof of burn address? Even if people have to wait for weeks for transactions to go through, would it really matter?

Of course it can be done! But this way they will have to really be exposed to how many people actually like their coin to be the new PTS... It is much easier to just state ' We are the new PTS i.e. the new sharedrop target!'

Tony, there is no other choice. The PoW chain is dying or already dead. If you think a protocol change is "unethical" then you should be objecting to every one of the hard forks that BTS has had over the past few months because those are technically a "new coin" as well (not really). To state that the only "ethical" solution is to let PTS die is just bizarre. We're working hard to add value to the Bitshares ecosystem, and most of us are invested heavily in BTS as well. Nobody here feels "defrauded" by securing their funds and upgrading to a sustainable consensus protocol, which is all we are doing. If I can't convince you that we're adding value here then you are free not to invest.