Author Topic: Lets vote for lower fees!  (Read 10336 times)

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Offline Empirical1.2

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What about 0.1% fee with a minimum fee of $0.01 and a maximum of say $0.10

That way if you send/receive <$10 you only pay $0.01. $25 is $0.025 etc..
What would be great! Is it easily doable? What we need for this? Let's start casting votes!  :)

I don't know if it's easily doable. We would have to ask Bytemaster and also see what are the negatives.
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Offline noisy

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What about 0.1% fee with a minimum fee of $0.01 and a maximum of say $0.10

That way if you send/receive <$10 you only pay $0.01. $25 is $0.025 etc..

I think, that would be fair.
Take a look on: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,19625.msg251894.html - I have a crazy idea - lets convince cryptonomex developers to use livecoding.tv

Offline pal

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What about 0.1% fee with a minimum fee of $0.01 and a maximum of say $0.10

That way if you send/receive <$10 you only pay $0.01. $25 is $0.025 etc..
What would be great! Is it easily doable? What we need for this? Let's start casting votes!  :)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 11:08:42 pm by pal »
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Offline noisy

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"How can we be profitable from day 1?"

That is good approach, but somehow bitcoin do not earn money... and most of people don't care about that. Why? Because they believe in the massive adoption of bitcoin in the future, and then all people will earn money every day, just by not spending so huge transaction fees to the banks.

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"How can we be profitable from day 1?"

One more time... this is good approach if you want to create a company which will sell ice creams on the street. But if you want to lunch a rocket and land on the mars... you just cannot think about the profit in the short term. INNOVATION NEED INVESTMENTS - simple as that.

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"How do we attract more users to what we've got?"

And this is another misunderstanding. 99% of people are consumers... so we should allow them consume cheap. I don't understand an idea, that suddenly we want to only attract people which want to be a "referral entrepreneur" at the expense of average user.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 11:05:06 pm by noisy »
Take a look on: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,19625.msg251894.html - I have a crazy idea - lets convince cryptonomex developers to use livecoding.tv

Offline pal

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@MarketingMonk

You try to attract new users from countries there already good financial system (USA, Western Europe), while we could provide free banking for the world. Current fees isolate system in one region. This cutting off China, Eastern Europe, Russia, Greece, Argentina, Africa and others.
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Offline Empirical1.2

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It would be better to raise fees on BTS transfers to allow the network to benefit from all those transfers to/from poloniex.

Lets face it all transfers at this point are just to/from an exchange by people who either want out of BitShares altogether or are transferring to their own wallet for the long term. Its not facilitating any real merchant activity at the moment. Either way they wont mind paying a fee of around 50 BTS.
Fees getting higher with growth of the system, so lowering the fees will be temporary. Eventually BTS will be profitable, but right now there is not enough users to get this profit from.

What size transactions do you think the average Polish/Chinese person will be making?

I'm in favour of the current fees but don't mind decreasing them for lower value transactions..

With a flat fee system people at the lower end are possibly paying an unfair amount.

(It doesn't make sense if US users are on average sending $500 for $0.10 and our say African users are sending an average of $4 and paying $0.10 per transaction too. We could potentially get better value from both markets with a sliding scale.)

What about 0.1% fee with a minimum fee of $0.01 and a maximum of say $0.10

That way if you send/receive <$10 you only pay $0.01. $25 is $0.025 etc..

 
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 11:02:20 pm by Empirical1.2 »
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Offline MarketingMonk

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Price is never really the issue. The real issue in marketing is the perception of value.

That comes from correctly educating the prospective users.

I vote to keep fees the same and focus on the product.

This idea that every business starts off losing money is a limiting belief.

It is a self fulfilling prophesy.

As an online entrepreneur I'm always asking this question when launching a new business:

"How can we be profitable from day 1?"

How differently do you think things pan out with that mindset?

As opposed to:

"We are going to lose money for the first year anyway so we need to think how are we going to survive?"

And the example of Twitter and Facebook relates to BitShares only in as much as the focus at the beginning was getting as many people using the system as possible.

That's where the similarities end.

The problem for Twitter and Facebook in the early years was the lack of a business model and hence no idea how they were going to generate revenue.

We already have a business model and a revenue stream with BitShares so the real question becomes:

"How do we attract more users to what we've got?"

Offline pal

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It would be better to raise fees on BTS transfers to allow the network to benefit from all those transfers to/from poloniex.

Lets face it all transfers at this point are just to/from an exchange by people who either want out of BitShares altogether or are transferring to their own wallet for the long term. Its not facilitating any real merchant activity at the moment. Either way they wont mind paying a fee of around 50 BTS.
Fees getting higher with growth of the system, so lowering the fees will be temporary. Eventually BTS will be profitable, but right now there is not enough users to get this profit from.
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Offline noisy

I never thought I would use arguments like that... but you all probably see "The Social Network" Movie. Do you remember the scene with Sean Parker?

"Hey, you know what? Settle an argument for us. I say it's time to start making money from The Facebook.. "

Take a look: https://youtu.be/dU6scly2AFU?t=1m17s

Take a look on: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,19625.msg251894.html - I have a crazy idea - lets convince cryptonomex developers to use livecoding.tv

Offline noisy

I agree with pal. In my opinion 10 cents is very high fee. I am from Poland, and for me 10 cents mean probably much more than you might think. Previously I thought about making a giveaway thread for Polish community, but with fee's so high... this doesn't make sense.

I don't agree that this is a reason why price of bitshares dropped, but eventually I think high fees will make this continue. Right now bitshares network makes a profit. And you know what? THIS IS NOT TIME FOR A PROFIT! At the beginning of each company there is an investment process. First.. .the owner need to put some money (or time) on the table, to buy/produce some product... the profit sometime is not yet there.

Could you told me, when Facebook and Twitter started making profit? Not in the early stages... and right now bitshares is in the early stage!

We as a community are investors in bitshares. If we are truly long term investors... quick profit should not be so important to us. Right now we should focus, to provide the best experience for customers. Just like that. Fees needs to me low, very low!

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Have you compared the price against the price of trading at an exchange?  For most of them its 0.2% of the amount you trade. 

If you trade more than .2 btc worth of something, youll be paying more trading on an exchange than in bitshares. 

If you are a member of bitshares, then you pay 80% less, so if you trade more than .04 btc worth at a time you pay less than on an exchange.

This is not true.. because you are not taking into consideration, that right now there is no liquidity in bitassets exchanges. The true cost of operation " Buy 1 bitUSD and immediately sell 1 bitUSD" is far beyond acceptance.

We should vote for lower fees!
Take a look on: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,19625.msg251894.html - I have a crazy idea - lets convince cryptonomex developers to use livecoding.tv

Offline speedy

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It would be better to raise fees on BTS transfers to allow the network to benefit from all those transfers to/from poloniex.

Lets face it all transfers at this point are just to/from an exchange by people who either want out of BitShares altogether or are transferring to their own wallet for the long term. Its not facilitating any real merchant activity at the moment. Either way they wont mind paying a fee of around 50 BTS.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 10:23:39 pm by speedy »

Offline pal

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I see your logic. I'm surprised that so many people understand that system should make money. It's good, I'm glad to be part of this. But I search for people with different view and if there is enough of them - we should make a change.  This people could be quietly selling right now and don't know that they can influence system despite all authority.
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Offline Ander

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Doesn't make sense. These are not the reasons the BTS price is low.

The priority is to finish the GUI and implement all the missing features on the GUI level.
The unfinished UI is the main barrier for new users and also the reason we have low volumes on the internal exchange.
When new users arrive the price will recover and when traders start trading there will be profits from transaction fees and an additional reason for the price to rise.

So at this moment it all boils down to having the UI truly ready.

UI is good enough to make transactions and even trade, but now it's too costly


Have you compared the price against the price of trading at an exchange?  For most of them its 0.2% of the amount you trade. 

If you trade more than .2 btc worth of something, youll be paying more trading on an exchange than in bitshares. 

If you are a member of bitshares, then you pay 80% less, so if you trade more than .04 btc worth at a time you pay less than on an exchange.
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Offline pal

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Doesn't make sense. These are not the reasons the BTS price is low.

The priority is to finish the GUI and implement all the missing features on the GUI level.
The unfinished UI is the main barrier for new users and also the reason we have low volumes on the internal exchange.
When new users arrive the price will recover and when traders start trading there will be profits from transaction fees and an additional reason for the price to rise.

So at this moment it all boils down to having the UI truly ready.

UI is good enough to make transactions and even trade, but now it's too costly
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Offline Ander

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1. Low fees are easy sell, we could subscribe more people. Any working referral program will be good incentive for people.
2. We made mistakes in the past, lowering we fees will not be worse than other decisions. But system will become actually usable by people, not investors.

We had low fees in the past and that didnt help us sell anything.  On the contrary, the blockchain losing money caused most of the community to abandon it, driving the market cap from 100M to 8M. 

We need to MAKE MONEY.  This is what will make bitshares take off. 

When btc had its huge rallies in the past, they drove adoption.  We need bitshares price rises to drive adoption, and for that we need the blockchain to be profitable and thus attractive to investors, and for that we need reasonably costed fees around their current level that are still lower than what you pay for any financial transfer, but high enough to make some money.
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