Author Topic: Lets bring " earn x% interest on 'anything' " back to Bitshares!  (Read 33368 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline fav

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4278
  • No Pain, No Gain
    • View Profile
    • Follow Me!
  • BitShares: fav

The BSIP doesn't provide a solution to Yield Harvesting because it doesn't create the issue in the first place. Profits would be sharedropped onto asset holders on a scheduled basis; this proposal is not vulnerable to the 'Yield Harvesting' issue that 'Socialized yield' was.

Please explain. AFAICS BSIP-0019 proposes to pay dividends on bitassets (among others).

What stops me from using my BTS for shorting bitassets into existence and keeping them in my wallet, with the goal of collecting dividends for them?

There's nothing preventing you locking up your BTS as smartcoins for the long term, by doing so you are removing BTS from the liquid supply and become eligible for earning dividends.

To avoid abuse of this mechanism we could evaluate the average asset holdings since the last dividend payment or only allocate dividends for the time that these assets have been in an user's wallet for (if the user has held the coins 14 of 30 days in a 30day dividend schedule, they only receive the 14days worth of dividends).

that's how steem does/did it with steem backed dollar. every second holding counted

Offline R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 841
    • View Profile

The BSIP doesn't provide a solution to Yield Harvesting because it doesn't create the issue in the first place. Profits would be sharedropped onto asset holders on a scheduled basis; this proposal is not vulnerable to the 'Yield Harvesting' issue that 'Socialized yield' was.

Please explain. AFAICS BSIP-0019 proposes to pay dividends on bitassets (among others).

What stops me from using my BTS for shorting bitassets into existence and keeping them in my wallet, with the goal of collecting dividends for them?

There's nothing preventing you locking up your BTS as smartcoins for the long term, by doing so you are removing BTS from the liquid supply and become eligible for earning dividends.

To avoid abuse of this mechanism we could evaluate the average asset holdings since the last dividend payment or only allocate dividends for the time that these assets have been in an user's wallet for (if the user has held the coins 14 of 30 days in a 30day dividend schedule, they only receive the 14days worth of dividends).

Offline pc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1530
    • View Profile
    • Bitcoin - Perspektive oder Risiko?
  • BitShares: cyrano

The BSIP doesn't provide a solution to Yield Harvesting because it doesn't create the issue in the first place. Profits would be sharedropped onto asset holders on a scheduled basis; this proposal is not vulnerable to the 'Yield Harvesting' issue that 'Socialized yield' was.

Please explain. AFAICS BSIP-0019 proposes to pay dividends on bitassets (among others).

What stops me from using my BTS for shorting bitassets into existence and keeping them in my wallet, with the goal of collecting dividends for them?
Bitcoin - Perspektive oder Risiko? ISBN 978-3-8442-6568-2 http://bitcoin.quisquis.de

Offline R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 841
    • View Profile
AFAIK the recent profit of our DAC stems from a giant refund paid by Xeroc's worker. We're far from a situation where the fees regularly exceed our costs.

Your BSIP lacks a solution to the Yield Harvesting problem.
The previous estimate of 1 million BTS in fees per month is approx $320k, given that value was $6k when this thread started I believe the proposal is even more viable. It's up to the committee to figure out fees pegged to the dollar/cny so that we have accurate witness pay (and increased profitability of the DEX).

The BSIP doesn't provide a solution to Yield Harvesting because it doesn't create the issue in the first place. Profits would be sharedropped onto asset holders on a scheduled basis; this proposal is not vulnerable to the 'Yield Harvesting' issue that 'Socialized yield' was.

---

I'm splitting the BSIP in two - one for UIA, another for MPA.

Offline fav

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4278
  • No Pain, No Gain
    • View Profile
    • Follow Me!
  • BitShares: fav
AFAIK the recent profit of our DAC stems from a giant refund paid by Xeroc's worker. We're far from a situation where the fees regularly exceed our costs.

Your BSIP lacks a solution to the Yield Harvesting problem.
Not so far actually. I burned 6.4M BTS and the revenue is 6.2M .. Also, those revenues distributed over multiple weeks would have resulted in a more continues revenue. Ultimately, the reserves *are* back to >1B BTS :D

Yield harvesting is a problem, and I still don't see why holding BTS should make you hold more BTS later on ..dividends are paid by "reduced" supply.

not if you cut 10 or 20% off of affiliate fees, make it LTM exclusive, and reroute them to dividends. that's how I remember the discussion at least

Offline xeroc

  • Board Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12920
  • ChainSquad GmbH
    • View Profile
    • ChainSquad GmbH
  • BitShares: xeroc
  • GitHub: xeroc
AFAIK the recent profit of our DAC stems from a giant refund paid by Xeroc's worker. We're far from a situation where the fees regularly exceed our costs.

Your BSIP lacks a solution to the Yield Harvesting problem.
Not so far actually. I burned 6.4M BTS and the revenue is 6.2M .. Also, those revenues distributed over multiple weeks would have resulted in a more continues revenue. Ultimately, the reserves *are* back to >1B BTS :D

Yield harvesting is a problem, and I still don't see why holding BTS should make you hold more BTS later on ..dividends are paid by "reduced" supply.

Offline paliboy

AFAIK the recent profit of our DAC stems from a giant refund paid by Xeroc's worker. We're far from a situation where the fees regularly exceed our costs.

Your BSIP lacks a solution to the Yield Harvesting problem.

 +5%

I suggest to split BSIP into two - for UIAs and MPAs.

Offline Permie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 606
  • BitShares is the mycelium of the financial-earth
    • View Profile
  • BitShares: krimduss
JonnyBitcoin votes for liquidity and simplicity. Make him your proxy?
BTSDEX.COM

Offline pc

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1530
    • View Profile
    • Bitcoin - Perspektive oder Risiko?
  • BitShares: cyrano
AFAIK the recent profit of our DAC stems from a giant refund paid by Xeroc's worker. We're far from a situation where the fees regularly exceed our costs.

Your BSIP lacks a solution to the Yield Harvesting problem.
Bitcoin - Perspektive oder Risiko? ISBN 978-3-8442-6568-2 http://bitcoin.quisquis.de


Offline R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 841
    • View Profile
Interest/Profit-Sharing/Dividends was discussed in today's Bitshares Hangout, give it a listen when it's released.

Edit: https://steemit.com/beyondbitcoin/@glitterfart/bitshares-hangout-2017-04-28-beyond-bitcoin-radioshow-raw-recording-for-impatients

Would anyone be interested in collaborating on a BSIP for this idea through google docs (or a more FOSS alternative platform)?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 01:13:13 pm by Customminer »

Offline Taconator

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 18
    • View Profile
We also need to know more precisely what the monthly collected fees have been since inception of Bitshares 2.0.  I asked in the dev channel and @Taconator has graciously offered to help within a week if no one else has already helped by then.

Per @tbone's request, please refer to this thread for a discussion on the fees collected by the network through March 2017. I hope that this helps the discussion.

I will chime in on this topic in a separate post later.

Offline cryptosig

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 25
    • View Profile
Very simply I will use whatever system, be that BTS, some ETH solution when that comes along, or some multisignature solution that correctly replicates what I get at poloniex or bitfinex. Where I can store, safely on bloackchain, my crypto assets and earn interest from loans that I make until I have decided to sell them on the exchange or remove them from the exchange.

I can't see getting anyone to use Bitshares over exchanges without the incentive of interest. Nor can I see a use case where I could convince a merchant to store dollars in Bitshares over Paypal without interest on those dollars.
BTSX: wallet_approve_delegate cryptosig
KEYID: wallet_approve_delegate delegate-cryptosig

Offline fractalnode

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 107
    • View Profile
If you reward a short sale, you increase the price of the BTS
If you pay interest for everyone who has bitAssets, then you will create bitAsset buy wall,
which will make it difficult to increase the BTS price.

That's why I do not like this idea.
But I think it would be most beneficial to pay dividends depending on the amount of collateral and open orders on DEX and only for LTM.
It should also be easier to implement.

Similar ideas were discussed here:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23706.0.html

Anyway, first we have to be able to pay dividends or any other kind of simple profit sharing
Less BTS in circulation (more BTS locked up in bitAssets) means less BTS on the sell side thus easier to increase the BTS price.


I know and I agree with you, but I think if you compare these two ideas.
It seems to me that the dividend from the collateral amount gives less friction in the market. Because in that way you only create a buy pressure on BTS for borrowed bitUSD, bitCNY
And the growth of BTS would be faster because you immediately involve an existing community that already knows short sales in Bitshares and it will cause the first wave of price rises.
The rest of the people at that time will buy BTS without knowing much about it because they will just follow money. They will learn about Bitshares later and this will cause another great surge of growth.

Besides, the capital that will be migrating to BTS will definitely come with a vast majority of other crypto, and this capital will not bother  1% -5% of the profit
« Last Edit: April 15, 2017, 06:07:16 pm by FractalNode »

Offline R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 841
    • View Profile
If you reward a short sale, you increase the price of the BTS
If you pay interest for everyone who has bitAssets, then you will create bitAsset buy wall,
which will make it difficult to increase the BTS price.

That's why I do not like this idea.
But I think it would be most beneficial to pay dividends depending on the amount of collateral and open orders on DEX and only for LTM.
It should also be easier to implement.

Similar ideas were discussed here:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,23706.0.html

Anyway, first we have to be able to pay dividends or any other kind of simple profit sharing
Less BTS in circulation (more BTS locked up in bitAssets) means less BTS on the sell side thus easier to increase the BTS price.