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Offline bytemaster

Voting on Hard Forks
« on: October 19, 2014, 04:36:41 AM »

Hard Forks are perhaps one of the most difficult decisions a DAC must make for anything other than a bug fix.   The code represents the "constitution" and generally speaking a hard fork should require more than 51% of shareholder approval.   Unfortunately it is very hard to get that kind of consensus.

Discussions on the voting thread have shown some advanced market-based approaches to voting that could help the community come to a more "fair" hard for decision with greater than 75% approval by creating a market for votes on particular hard forks.

1) Every shareholder gets a vote and can be in one of 3 states:  Yes, No, or "Accept Majority". 
2) Every shareholder may sell their right to vote on a particular issue without selling their underlying BTS.
3) Once you get 51% turnout and 75% consensus a hard fork is activated... (it must already be implemented prior to the vote, just contingent on the vote for enabling it).

What this means:  those who might be negatively impacted by a hard fork and thus vote "NO" can get compensated by those who would be positively impacted by the hard fork by selling their No vote to them for more BTS.    It also means that those who might not "care" will sell their vote to the highest bidder. 

So the process for implementing a non-bug-fix hard fork would be:
1) Discuss on forums and get general consensus that it is a good idea
2) Have developers implement it
3) Have delegates upgrade to nodes that support it
4) Have shareholders vote to enable it

As long as this process is in place then the DAC can remain flexible while having "hard coded" limits on dilution that can be changed without violating the consensus with super majority vote.

For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline eagleeye

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Re: Voting on Hard Forks
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2014, 04:42:06 AM »
 +5%

A win for Advanced Democracy and Direct Democracy.

Greek Democracy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_democracy

A history of Athenian Democracy the nature of it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenian_democracy

If we are Democractic, we all believe in their democracy, the Greeks and Athenians.  I may revise my words later on but please denounce me if you believe I am wrong.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 04:48:08 AM by eagleeye »

Offline Mysto

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Re: Voting on Hard Forks
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2014, 04:44:57 AM »
 +5%

Offline tonyk

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Re: Voting on Hard Forks
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2014, 04:47:05 AM »
Me like!

...will think a bit more about minor adjustments/improvement suggestions, if any, but me like!  :)
Lack of arbitrage is the problem, isn't it. And this 'should' solves it.

Offline roadscape

Re: Voting on Hard Forks
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2014, 04:48:19 AM »
It sounds like a small subset of VOTE functionality, implemented directly on the blockchain? +5%

Could we use such a system to vote on proposals such the ones outlined in the "million issues" thread?
Or do we absolutely need to wait for VOTE until we could democratically solve internal "political/social" issues?
http://cryptofresh.com  |  witness: roadscape

Offline Troglodactyl

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Re: Voting on Hard Forks
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2014, 04:51:03 AM »
This sounds more like a firm fork than a hard fork, but I like it.  There will always be the option of hard forks bypassing this system of course, but it will be even harder to get support for them when there's a built in system for making the desired changes without that.

Offline eagleeye

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Re: Voting on Hard Forks
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2014, 04:52:54 AM »
It sounds like a small subset of VOTE functionality, implemented directly on the blockchain? +5%

Could we use such a system to vote on proposals such the ones outlined in the "million issues" thread?
Or do we absolutely need to wait for VOTE until we could democratically solve internal "political/social" issues?

roadkill *thumbs up*

Whoever is working on bitshares VOTE must come in and consult with bytemaster.  This is the beginning of true democracy.  Call your press people, get the word out in California or other places in the world.

Offline arhag

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Re: Voting on Hard Forks
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2014, 04:57:25 AM »
Ah, so that's what it took to get you to agree to delegate proposals ratified by shareholder vote, I had to provide a way for users to sell their votes on the open market!  :)

Whatever, I am glad you are more willing to embrace blockchain proposals that change the nature of how the DAC operates that can only become activated if enough shareholders directly approve of it. I'm sure you can eventually be convinced to add other details and conveniences to the proposal system once the main framework is in place.

Offline Pheonike

Re: Voting on Hard Forks
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2014, 05:05:42 AM »
Is the default state 'accept majority'? Also 51% for all share holders or those that participate with yes/no vote?

Offline bytemaster

Re: Voting on Hard Forks
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2014, 05:08:42 AM »
Is the default state 'accept majority'? Also 51% for all share holders or those that participate with yes/no vote?

51% all of all shareholders must have a vote of something other than "accept majority"
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline Pheonike

Re: Voting on Hard Forks
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2014, 05:09:36 AM »
Got it.

sumantso

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Re: Voting on Hard Forks
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2014, 05:30:39 AM »
Bter and Btc38 holds a lot of them; so that removes a lot of votes. I personally am reluctant to withdraw from Bter due to the stupid 1% fee. I put BTC in without bonus and bought BTSX, and suddenly I have to pay a tax.

zerosum

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Re: Voting on Hard Forks
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2014, 05:39:56 AM »
 :) :) :)

I must, not so humbly mention, that I was the one hoping/suggesting that the best new great thingy coming for the  VOTE DAC, is going to be the ability to sell your vote...

... I was happy to see my believes, second by... you know who....
... Just to see the totality of the idea, regarding the new VOTE DAC,  crushing most of my believes in what is right and wrong... maybe not morally, but in most any practical sense.


Anyway, even without the 'sell your vote' proposition this is a strong move in the right direction, imho.

 +5%

Bter and Btc38 holds a lot of them; so that removes a lot of votes. I personally am reluctant to withdraw from Bter due to the stupid 1% fee. I put BTC in without bonus and bought BTSX, and suddenly I have to pay a tax.
I am accused a lot of doing the same exact thing in my life... but reading your posts from yesterday and today - you are truly hard to be made happy by anything, my friend.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 05:44:59 AM by zerosum »

Offline clayop

Re: Voting on Hard Forks
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2014, 05:44:14 AM »
Bter and Btc38 holds a lot of them; so that removes a lot of votes. I personally am reluctant to withdraw from Bter due to the stupid 1% fee. I put BTC in without bonus and bought BTSX, and suddenly I have to pay a tax.

Agreed. We should confirm with exchanges that they will be on the 'accept majority' side. But how do we trust them?
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zerosum

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Re: Voting on Hard Forks
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2014, 06:25:11 AM »
Bter and Btc38 holds a lot of them; so that removes a lot of votes. I personally am reluctant to withdraw from Bter due to the stupid 1% fee. I put BTC in without bonus and bought BTSX, and suddenly I have to pay a tax.

Agreed. We should confirm with exchanges that they will be on the 'accept majority' side. But how do we trust them?

It actually does not matter much... Aside from the general principal that you do not keep your shares at a centralized exchange (aside from for trading purposes), anyone highly interested in voting for/against any decision will move it out of the exchange anyway.
So, if you do care how your stake votes, move it out of the exchange and vote yourself.


In general, I highly favor reducing the requirements for passing/rejecting suggestions (forks in this case) over time.

What I mean is the OP suggest 51% turnout (I call it quorum, but anyways)... you require at least 51% of eligible voters to have cast a vote 'for' or 'against' or 'abstained' , for the decision to be final. (In addition to the required percent, 75% in this case, to vote for that particular outcome)
I simply suggest - if this 51% turnout is not reached after, say 2 or 3 weeks, the turnout requirement is reduced by 10% (or 20% or 25%) each of the following weeks.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 06:37:46 AM by zerosum »

 

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