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Offline alphaBar

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Liquid vs. Illiquid AGS
« on: October 21, 2014, 12:41:10 AM »

It was stated on this forum that each dollar of AGS donated prior to Feb 28th was equal to $6.6 of PTS. I think we can all agree that this difference was SOLELY due to the fact that PTS is liquid and AGS is illiquid.

It stands to reason that any plan for converting AGS to a liquid asset should provide exactly 6.6X greater equity for each converted pre-snapshot PTS. In other words, pre-snapshot PTS should receive 6.6X greater equity in the new DAC to offset the "gift" of liquidity granted to AGS holders. 6.6X is in fact the quantifiable "value" of liquidity, as proven by the market price.

Let's ignore post-snapshot PTS for the time being and talk about why this does or does not make sense.

Offline roadscape

Re: Liquid vs. Illiquid AGS
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2014, 01:17:48 AM »
As much as I'd benefit from such a proposal, I say treat them equally.

I'm willing to concede to AGS holders.

Give them one last kickback and destroy AGS/PTS.
http://cryptofresh.com  |  witness: roadscape

Offline onceuponatime

Re: Liquid vs. Illiquid AGS
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2014, 01:27:42 AM »
It was stated on this forum that each dollar of AGS donated prior to Feb 28th was equal to $6.6 of PTS. I think we can all agree that this difference was SOLELY due to the fact that PTS is liquid and AGS is illiquid.

It stands to reason that any plan for converting AGS to a liquid asset should provide exactly 6.6X greater equity for each converted pre-snapshot PTS. In other words, pre-snapshot PTS should receive 6.6X greater equity in the new DAC to offset the "gift" of liquidity granted to AGS holders. 6.6X is in fact the quantifiable "value" of liquidity, as proven by the market price.

Let's ignore post-snapshot PTS for the time being and talk about why this does or does not make sense.

Please state your "disclosure"

Offline alphaBar

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Re: Liquid vs. Illiquid AGS
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2014, 01:38:53 AM »
It was stated on this forum that each dollar of AGS donated prior to Feb 28th was equal to $6.6 of PTS. I think we can all agree that this difference was SOLELY due to the fact that PTS is liquid and AGS is illiquid.

It stands to reason that any plan for converting AGS to a liquid asset should provide exactly 6.6X greater equity for each converted pre-snapshot PTS. In other words, pre-snapshot PTS should receive 6.6X greater equity in the new DAC to offset the "gift" of liquidity granted to AGS holders. 6.6X is in fact the quantifiable "value" of liquidity, as proven by the market price.

Let's ignore post-snapshot PTS for the time being and talk about why this does or does not make sense.

Please state your "disclosure"

My "disclosure" is irrelevant and, even if relevant, unverifiable. I'd just like to hear the rationale for the seemingly random, "equal", or other allocations. Love it or hate it I've provided an objective metric. If you disagree, tell me why I'm wrong.

Offline alphaBar

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Re: Liquid vs. Illiquid AGS
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2014, 01:42:54 AM »
My point is that liquidity has a value which should be accounted for. Instead of making up numbers, let's establish a floor and ceiling on that value. Then we can claim to be "fair" in our allocation. Equal allocation to AGS/PTS is one of the only provably UNfair allocations, since it assigns zero value to the liquidity gifted to AGS.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 01:46:02 AM by alphaBar »

Offline Empirical1.1

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Re: Liquid vs. Illiquid AGS
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2014, 01:46:17 AM »
It was stated on this forum that each dollar of AGS donated prior to Feb 28th was equal to $6.6 of PTS. I think we can all agree that this difference was SOLELY due to the fact that PTS is liquid and AGS is illiquid.

It stands to reason that any plan for converting AGS to a liquid asset should provide exactly 6.6X greater equity for each converted pre-snapshot PTS. In other words, pre-snapshot PTS should receive 6.6X greater equity in the new DAC to offset the "gift" of liquidity granted to AGS holders. 6.6X is in fact the quantifiable "value" of liquidity, as proven by the market price.

Let's ignore post-snapshot PTS for the time being and talk about why this does or does not make sense.

Please state your "disclosure"

My "disclosure" is irrelevant and, even if relevant, unverifiable. I'd just like to hear the rationale for the seemingly random, "equal", or other allocations. Love it or hate it I've provided an objective metric. If you disagree, tell me why I'm wrong.

Pre-snapshot, Post-Snapshot PTS? None of them are honoured. PTS is liquid. It only has value if you currently hold it. The people who held PTS pre-snapshot are able to get a stake and then sell the PTS for it's residual value or continue holding it anytime you sold PTS you received fair value. Only people that currently hold PTS are going to be given a BTS stake that is an approximation of fair value.

You could argue that AGS is given slightly less or that they have a period of time before they can access it I guess.

Edit: Oh I misunderstood. You're arguing pre BTS snapshot should get should get 6.6x AGS

Nah I would just make AGS wait longer before they could claim maybe.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 01:52:20 AM by Empirical1.1 »

Offline alphaBar

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Re: Liquid vs. Illiquid AGS
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2014, 01:50:12 AM »
It was stated on this forum that each dollar of AGS donated prior to Feb 28th was equal to $6.6 of PTS. I think we can all agree that this difference was SOLELY due to the fact that PTS is liquid and AGS is illiquid.

It stands to reason that any plan for converting AGS to a liquid asset should provide exactly 6.6X greater equity for each converted pre-snapshot PTS. In other words, pre-snapshot PTS should receive 6.6X greater equity in the new DAC to offset the "gift" of liquidity granted to AGS holders. 6.6X is in fact the quantifiable "value" of liquidity, as proven by the market price.

Let's ignore post-snapshot PTS for the time being and talk about why this does or does not make sense.

Please state your "disclosure"

My "disclosure" is irrelevant and, even if relevant, unverifiable. I'd just like to hear the rationale for the seemingly random, "equal", or other allocations. Love it or hate it I've provided an objective metric. If you disagree, tell me why I'm wrong.

Pre-snapshot, Post-Snapshot PTS? None of them are honoured. PTS is liquid. It only has value if you currently hold it. The people who held PTS pre-snapshot are able to get a stake and then sell the PTS for it's residual value or continue holding it anytime you sold PTS you received fair value. Only people that currently hold PTS are going to be given a BTS stake that is an approximation of fair value.

Perfectly valid point, and hints at an issue that I tried to avoid (at least initially). But doesn't address the main point which is the very real value of the "gift" of liquidity given to AGS holders.

Offline roadscape

Re: Liquid vs. Illiquid AGS
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2014, 01:57:09 AM »
My "disclosure" is irrelevant and, even if relevant, unverifiable. I'd just like to hear the rationale for the seemingly random, "equal", or other allocations. Love it or hate it I've provided an objective metric. If you disagree, tell me why I'm wrong.

Well put.

If all we have is a collection of seemingly random rationales and limited time, 50-50 is the obvious choice.

Even if your number was verifiable, you have unquantifiable subjective factors on both sides.

If someone has verifiable numbers and strong rationale for AGS vs PTS I'd reconsider.
http://cryptofresh.com  |  witness: roadscape

Offline Empirical1.1

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Re: Liquid vs. Illiquid AGS
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2014, 02:04:55 AM »
It was stated on this forum that each dollar of AGS donated prior to Feb 28th was equal to $6.6 of PTS. I think we can all agree that this difference was SOLELY due to the fact that PTS is liquid and AGS is illiquid.

It stands to reason that any plan for converting AGS to a liquid asset should provide exactly 6.6X greater equity for each converted pre-snapshot PTS. In other words, pre-snapshot PTS should receive 6.6X greater equity in the new DAC to offset the "gift" of liquidity granted to AGS holders. 6.6X is in fact the quantifiable "value" of liquidity, as proven by the market price.

Let's ignore post-snapshot PTS for the time being and talk about why this does or does not make sense.

Please state your "disclosure"

My "disclosure" is irrelevant and, even if relevant, unverifiable. I'd just like to hear the rationale for the seemingly random, "equal", or other allocations. Love it or hate it I've provided an objective metric. If you disagree, tell me why I'm wrong.

Pre-snapshot, Post-Snapshot PTS? None of them are honoured. PTS is liquid. It only has value if you currently hold it. The people who held PTS pre-snapshot are able to get a stake and then sell the PTS for it's residual value or continue holding it anytime you sold PTS you received fair value. Only people that currently hold PTS are going to be given a BTS stake that is an approximation of fair value.

Perfectly valid point, and hints at an issue that I tried to avoid (at least initially). But doesn't address the main point which is the very real value of the "gift" of liquidity given to AGS holders.

Yeah as I said above you could potentially give them less or make them wait longer. The AGSers are the real long term believers and supporters of DACs with a lot of faith in BM so on the one hand they deserve more on the other hand you can err on the side of giving them less as we're the most likely to not quibble over a few % and support BTS regardless.

However looking at PTS price it's holding at round 10% of BTSX price so you could argue that's the region the market is expecting.

So somewhere in that region 8-10% each, 50/50 is simplest & is going to be generally acceptable imo.

(I have equalish BTSX & AGS % but no PTS)
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 02:07:25 AM by Empirical1.1 »

Offline alphaBar

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Re: Liquid vs. Illiquid AGS
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2014, 02:42:03 AM »
Yeah as I said above you could potentially give them less or make them wait longer. The AGSers are the real long term believers and supporters of DACs with a lot of faith in BM so on the one hand they deserve more on the other hand you can err on the side of giving them less as we're the most likely to not quibble over a few % and support BTS regardless.

However looking at PTS price it's holding at round 10% of BTSX price so you could argue that's the region the market is expecting.

So somewhere in that region 8-10% each, 50/50 is simplest & is going to be generally acceptable imo.

(I have equalish BTSX & AGS % but no PTS)

My point in making this thread is that a 50/50 split between AGS and PTS is provably unfair. AGSers already received 6X more in every issued DAC, including BTSX. The 6X multiplier was due solely to the fact that AGS is illiquid and that AGS "donation" was perpetual and non-transferable. Now that people are proposing that we "gift" them all of the benefits of PTS (ie, liquidity), the 6X multiplier should also be retracted.

This is truly one of the failures of democracy at work. Redistribution of wealth at the expense of the less-vocal minority. The people who are checking these forums with enough consistency to "catch" this scheme in progress are those who are, most likely, heavily invested in AGS. Meanwhile, new users, later adopters, and less invested individuals (PTS users, those who are more objective AND more likely to affect our reputation outside of this closed circle) are shafted by the circle jerk that this has turned into. I'm mostly entertained by the whole thing, although I hate to see a wasted opportunity.

Offline roadscape

Re: Liquid vs. Illiquid AGS
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2014, 03:08:31 AM »
My point in making this thread is that a 50/50 split between AGS and PTS is provably unfair. AGSers already received 6X more in every issued DAC, including BTSX. The 6X multiplier was due solely to the fact that AGS is illiquid and that AGS "donation" was perpetual and non-transferable. Now that people are proposing that we "gift" them all of the benefits of PTS (ie, liquidity), the 6X multiplier should also be retracted.

This is truly one of the failures of democracy at work. Redistribution of wealth at the expense of the less-vocal minority. The people who are checking these forums with enough consistency to "catch" this scheme in progress are those who are, most likely, heavily invested in AGS. Meanwhile, new users, later adopters, and less invested individuals (PTS users, those who are more objective AND more likely to affect our reputation outside of this closed circle) are shafted by the circle jerk that this has turned into. I'm mostly entertained by the whole thing, although I hate to see a wasted opportunity.

Devil's advocate:

AGS earned any such bias; BTSX is where it is today only because of the earliest adopters.

3i went out of their way to guarantee nothing for AGS/PTS holders.
They could have just as easily merged their DACs and left the "free sample" concept for 3rd party DACs.
They're throwing us a bone before shunning this "community coin" forever.
http://cryptofresh.com  |  witness: roadscape

Offline oco101

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Re: Liquid vs. Illiquid AGS
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2014, 03:18:37 AM »
AGSers already received 6X more in every issued DAC, including BTSX.

What others DACs ?

DNS is merge and what left is Music. Music does't change the deal for PTS holder or AGS holders so it does not count.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 03:23:04 AM by oco101 »

Offline alphaBar

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Re: Liquid vs. Illiquid AGS
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2014, 03:44:45 PM »
AGSers already received 6X more in every issued DAC, including BTSX.

What others DACs ?

DNS is merge and what left is Music. Music does't change the deal for PTS holder or AGS holders so it does not count.

Whether there were 100 DACs or just BTSX, the point is that AGS was given 6X the equity of PTS solely because they chose to be "locked in". Now we're gifting them the liquidity of PTS and they get to keep the 6X? That is provably unfair... but I'm sure bytemaster will not bless us with his logic on this one other than saying, "it's the best we can do." Sad for a computer scientist to ignore simple logic in this way...

Offline roadscape

Re: Liquid vs. Illiquid AGS
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2014, 04:10:14 PM »
Whether there were 100 DACs or just BTSX, the point is that AGS was given 6X the equity of PTS solely because they chose to be "locked in". Now we're gifting them the liquidity of PTS and they get to keep the 6X? That is provably unfair... but I'm sure bytemaster will not bless us with his logic on this one other than saying, "it's the best we can do." Sad for a computer scientist to ignore simple logic in this way...

http://www1.agsexplorer.com/
5,625.02597337 BTC donated for 1,000,000.0 AGS
415,218.03087392 PTS donated for 1,000,000.0 AGS

177.7 AGS per BTC donated
2.408 AGS per PTS donated

Wheres the 6X
http://cryptofresh.com  |  witness: roadscape

Offline NewMine

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Re: Liquid vs. Illiquid AGS
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2014, 04:30:35 PM »
Whether there were 100 DACs or just BTSX, the point is that AGS was given 6X the equity of PTS solely because they chose to be "locked in". Now we're gifting them the liquidity of PTS and they get to keep the 6X? That is provably unfair... but I'm sure bytemaster will not bless us with his logic on this one other than saying, "it's the best we can do." Sad for a computer scientist to ignore simple logic in this way...

http://www1.agsexplorer.com/
5,625.02597337 BTC donated for 1,000,000.0 AGS
415,218.03087392 PTS donated for 1,000,000.0 AGS

177.7 AGS per BTC donated
2.408 AGS per PTS donated

Wheres the 6X

I am not sure.

You have to know the prices if BTC and PTS to figure it out realisticly.

Say BTC was $600 on average.

$600/177AGS = ~3.4 dollars per AGS

Say PTS was $12 on average

$12/2.4AGS = ~$5/AGS

By those calculations PTS about 30% more for an AGS based on those numbers.

Could be wrong though.

 

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