Stop arguing percentages and look at the bigger picture.

[carpet ride]

Rune came in here recently, ran thru the basics and got the entire vision in no time flat.  Not many have been able to do the same. 

Anybody else an east coaster -  nyc type? Looking to do anther meet-up soon.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Rune]

I stand by the fact that whoever controls the framework of communications in the DAC, are and will be the most powerful people. That's why I went to talk to fuzzy first - I needed to figure out if he was prone to corruption or not, and if he was willing to actively fight it. I guess it's a big advantage that he has the integrity to disclose basically any private conversation that he considers to be shady or with dishonest intentions... Even if that means that people on this forum will now think I'm some behind-the-scenes evil mastermind.

It doesn't really matter to me in the long run. I have secured my stake, and I'm certain to become obscenely rich off all this. Anything I've done beyond that has simply been an attempt to help the DAC flesh out its workings from the beginning - once it gets off the ground and the ball gets rolling, the ideas and opinions of individual people will not matter much anymore, as in the long run capital will find its way to whoever are the best at allocating it profitably.

Seriously? That's the reason?
You come here and figure out if people are corrupt? Seems fuzz was correct all along ..

Final comment on this:
Take my Plonk .. you really deserve it!

Well, not in the sense that I wanted to "corrupt him". My logic at the time was that no matter what, his current position as the glue of communication would invariably be politicized and corrupted. So the only rational choice would be to politicize it the way that would ensure he would never allow special interests to buy undue influence. Now that I actually know people here, and know fuzzy, I realise that there's no chance of it happening anyway. Back then it was impossible for me to have that information, and I had just realised that we basically had our hands on the most powerful technology that has ever been invented.

[xeroc]

I stand by the fact that whoever controls the framework of communications in the DAC, are and will be the most powerful people. That's why I went to talk to fuzzy first - I needed to figure out if he was prone to corruption or not, and if he was willing to actively fight it. I guess it's a big advantage that he has the integrity to disclose basically any private conversation that he considers to be shady or with dishonest intentions... Even if that means that people on this forum will now think I'm some behind-the-scenes evil mastermind.

It doesn't really matter to me in the long run. I have secured my stake, and I'm certain to become obscenely rich off all this. Anything I've done beyond that has simply been an attempt to help the DAC flesh out its workings from the beginning - once it gets off the ground and the ball gets rolling, the ideas and opinions of individual people will not matter much anymore, as in the long run capital will find its way to whoever are the best at allocating it profitably.

Seriously? That's the reason?
You come here and figure out if people are corrupt? Seems fuzz was correct all along ..

Final comment on this:
Take my Plonk .. you really deserve it!

[Rune]

I'm shocked, but also slightly amused it has come to this, it seems I overestimated the cunning of you humans. My plan might have been foiled for now, but I shall return. Soon I shall rule all!!!

Okay jokes aside, you do remember that I basically gave up on the "secret political party" the very next day. The day I got the idea was the day that I first realized the true potential of bitshares. As I have written elsewhere, I'm convinced that this DAC will eventually grow to own all assets on the planet, and basically become the framework through which humanity will control its actions on a macro scale. My first thought was that such an entity would be absurdly dangerous if it somehow become corrupted along the way and began to pursue profit with no regards for anything else. One of those scenarios was the scenario that Stan mentioned in the talk: if a bank offered to partner with us globally in return for getting sharedropped so they owned 50% of the stake. At first I thought that was something that could actually plausibly happen and would result in the total corruption of the DAC and basically turn in it into a tool of evil. That's why I thought a "greenpeace" group within it would be necessary to mount massive campaigns against any such corruption, and even if possible somehow retain the tools to kill off the DAC rather than "let it fall into the enemies hands". The fact that I wanted it to be "secret" in the beginning was simply because I wanted to figure out if there was actually people interested in a project like that. I'd obviously not want to jump onto the board as a new guy and announce this hippie-greenpeace political movement and then have everyone ignore it.

Obviously, the next day I realized that the corruption risk of the DAC is much lower than I initially thought, since delegates are not really politicians, but rather employees, and more importantly that pretty much everyone of the current stakeholders are not primarily profit-motivated and would most likely not support a bank takeover.

I stand by the fact that whoever controls the framework of communications in the DAC, are and will be the most powerful people. That's why I went to talk to fuzzy first - I needed to figure out if he was prone to corruption or not, and if he was willing to actively fight it. I guess it's a big advantage that he has the integrity to disclose basically any private conversation that he considers to be shady or with dishonest intentions... Even if that means that people on this forum will now think I'm some behind-the-scenes evil mastermind.

It doesn't really matter to me in the long run. I have secured my stake, and I'm certain to become obscenely rich off all this. Anything I've done beyond that has simply been an attempt to help the DAC flesh out its workings from the beginning - once it gets off the ground and the ball gets rolling, the ideas and opinions of individual people will not matter much anymore, as in the long run capital will find its way to whoever are the best at allocating it profitably.

[fuzzy]

agreed. Xeroc.  I am not angry or upset with you.  But I'd be lieing if I said it wasn't frustrating and demeaning to be approached in such a way by this new guy.

If I may give you an advice: Don't take it seriously .. If someone told me to quit job (and he did to me too, btw) I'd just tell me openly that this will not happen any time soon .. period .. no need for discussion .. no need to be frustrated ..

Writing this post here, however makes me understand your concerns ... How can he take the freedom to tell anybody what to do to earn money? Quit the job? Seriously? ..

I DO understand the issue you are having with Rune! Just try to not take it personally! I know that is difficult sometimes!

The only thing I take personally, is someone coming to me with the intent of using the trust I have built in this community as leverage for their own gain--while potentially harming everything I have vowed to protect.

I am not angry, actually.  I sat back and waited (as opposed to my normal response---just posting as soon as my spidey senses tingled).  I have let him post here for awhile, trying to gauge his intentions...but the more I thought about it, the more I cannot defend ANY of it.  The only transparency he advocates is the transparency that gives him more leverage.  For those who think logically...this is the ONLY conclusion. 

It is like pulling teeth trying to get some of us to understand that we don't live in fairy tale wonderland where everyone is benevolent and sacrifices more for others than they expect others to sacrifice for them!! :O 

[xeroc]

agreed. Xeroc.  I am not angry or upset with you.  But I'd be lieing if I said it wasn't frustrating and demeaning to be approached in such a way by this new guy.

If I may give you an advice: Don't take it seriously .. If someone told me to quit job (and he did to me too, btw) I'd just tell me openly that this will not happen any time soon .. period .. no need for discussion .. no need to be frustrated ..

Writing this post here, however makes me understand your concerns ... How can he take the freedom to tell anybody what to do to earn money? Quit the job? Seriously? ..

I DO understand the issue you are having with Rune! Just try to not take it personally! I know that is difficult sometimes!

[fuzzy]

agreed. Xeroc.  I am not angry or upset with you.  But I'd be lieing if I said it wasn't frustrating and demeaning to be approached in such a way by this new guy.

[xeroc]

@Rune, I think you are trying to protect the network .. and that is good .. but the community seems to have found a consensus that secret or limited-access groups holding a majority (or big stake) in BTS and can thus "change politics" at will is dangerous or even plain suicidal

Are we certain Xeroc?  I have put a LOT into this community...just like you. It is hard to believe someone who comes in here advocating secret power blocks has "the entire community" in mind.  Not to mention his opening line to me "you are going to be the most powerful man in bitshares".  I am no fool.  And he obviously doesn't know my motives align nowhere near his... 

I am going to fervently disagree with you...though I highly respect you.  Be willing to be unpopular and say what you know in your gut.  Put the pieces together.  They fit quite well.  At LEAST well enough to acknowledge something is amiss. 

There is a time when people need to draw the f'ing line and call a spade a spade.  You are far too intelligent to fall for this scammer bullshit.

I am not so sure if I am interpreting you correctly .. but to me is seems like you are "complaining" about the first part of my post .. i.e.

@Rune, I think you are trying to protect the network .. and that is good ..

I tend to try to motivate people and see good where there *might* not be any good .. I am pretty conflict-averse ..

About the second part of my statement, i.e.

but the community seems to have found a consensus that secret or limited-access groups holding a majority (or big stake) in BTS and can thus "change politics" at will is dangerous or even plain suicidal

.. I am fairly certain that most members do agree ..

[fuzzy]

@Rune, I think you are trying to protect the network .. and that is good .. but the community seems to have found a consensus that secret or limited-access groups holding a majority (or big stake) in BTS and can thus "change politics" at will is dangerous or even plain suicidal

Are we certain Xeroc?  I have put a LOT into this community...just like you. It is hard to believe someone who comes in here advocating secret power blocks has "the entire community" in mind.  Not to mention his opening line to me "you are going to be the most powerful man in bitshares".  I am no fool.  And he obviously doesn't know my motives align nowhere near his... 

I am going to fervently disagree with you...though I highly respect you.  Be willing to be unpopular and say what you know in your gut.  Put the pieces together.  They fit quite well.  At LEAST well enough to acknowledge something is amiss. 

There is a time when people need to draw the f'ing line and call a spade a spade.  You are far too intelligent to fall for this scammer bullshit. 

*Edit:  I obviously was a bit too fervent Xeroc...to read the second paragraph before responding.  You deserve an apology for this and I am hoping you accept the one I offer right now.*

[xeroc]

@Rune, I think you are trying to protect the network .. and that is good .. but the community seems to have found a consensus that secret or limited-access groups holding a majority (or big stake) in BTS and can thus "change politics" at will is dangerous or even plain suicidal

[fuzzy]

I don't want to create a two class forum. 

Rune seems to be new around here (don't recognize the name from before)... I didn't even realize he proposed a merger lol.

But currently there already are two different classes: I3 and all other stakeholders. To me it seems even more centralized to have the secret access be determined arbitrarily by those already on the inside, rather than through some objective measure.

Realllly Rune???

You better prepare your statement.  This statement has brought me to the point of boiling over....it is time to tell people about you and your entrance into the Mumble, attaching yourself to me and saying "You are going to be the most powerful man in bitshares" (a position I am loath to attain, btw).

Then to tell me we need to be completely transparent about our stakes in the system, run delegates and have a secret group who also MEETS in secret to rule over the bitshares ecosystem?  Xeroc was there...ask him, anyone, if you don't believe me (not that you shouldn't...as I have proven 100's of times my trustworthiness). 

This deserves a thread all its own.  And I am preparing to give the community just that. 

Sorry Ghentso.  I know I told you I would try to play their game so I could attain enough money to fight Rune, with his "1000's" of BTC...but THE ONLY way I can fight him is by being honest.  I am no longer going to try to ally with him...just to join up with this "secret group" and out them from the inside.  All you (and possibly Method, who you said brought you here) want is to take control over the BitShares SuperDAC.  Don't act so a ridiculous....

To me it seems even more centralized to have the secret access be determined arbitrarily by those already on the inside, rather than through some objective measure  ----All you want to change is WHO has this centralized authority and make it LOOK transparent and "decentralized".  I personally will not let you do it without the community knowing about it. 

I apologize in advance to the ENTIRE community for not reaching out and letting you know earlier.  But I actually considered "infiltrating" this little scheme and recording it.  Honestly, I don't care to--I am currently holding a measely stake of 20 BTC after my year of work in these forums, so others can know my intentions by judging my actions and sacrifices on their merits.  The only reason I am still here is because of the early investors who I have grown to trust and respect as I would family.  They were here before they smelled free money.  And they worked hard to achieve what we have achieved.  I am here to protect them, and Dan's dream--which I also share.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?action=post;board=5.0  is going to grow into a more formal post on this.  But for now I don't have the time or the patience. 

In my humble opinion Rune...you are very intelligent and very calculating.  I do not know how you got your 1000+ BTC, but I do not care.  My wealth is in the people around me and the good will of others...and I believe if I work to be worthy of their trust, we will build a world so amazing that mere tokens that "represent value" will pale in comparison to the lifestyles we will all live.  I want a world without war...and people like you make it inevitable.  Good job. 

[amencon]

You act like being an early adopter is a privilege, that you deserve everything you can get your hands on. Let me tell you it is not. It is a gift, maybe the greatest gift anyone has ever received - and it is time that you take on the responsibility that goes along with it.

I think we are seeing "true colors" from a lot of people, out on display for all the community to see. Who can handle the intensity of the reality of what needs to be done? I am most impressed by the ones that haveaccepted this reality, even though it may have meant a temporary personal "loss". My observation is that those who hold most tightly to their "expectations", are the ones who cry the loudest when they find out the world does not revolve around them.

I'm getting sick of Rune's thinly hidden cheerleading.  The account is not even a month old and this person is condescending to people who have been around far longer, done far more, and bought into something completely different.

He is telling us same cheerleading we heard before he was even around.

It was not an honor or a privilege to have been early investors.  We did this by making the correct decisions.  Make those correct decisions required labor and intelligence.  We worked for it.  You probably came around after seeing BTSX on coinmarketcap.  So save your bullshit for others.

As for everything else it seems fairly close to a done deal.  I'm not happy, but mainly it is over the cultural shift.  It is likely required and likely a good thing.  I just don't understand what exactly these "mergers" mean or what exactly they imply and it is a source of my irritation. The value equation is very complicated and depends on a lot of small factors which have been vague and scattered about.

In the end I'd ask people to start being nicer.  I'm sure Dan never really wanted it to turn out like this, and it really is as much a proactive move as reactive I believe.  Yesterday I had a lot little jabs and snide posts.  It is hard not to be that way.  For me this pivot makes it harder to be a rah-rah fanboy as my vision isn't as much aligned with this single DAC centric one.  I'd imagine it is like being a sports fan (whatever thats like) and seeing your whole team just die on the field.  Ok.. not really.. I'm kidding.. Seriously though I will try to be more positive.  We'll see where she goes as I can't see any other project as worthy of my time.  :|

If you look at the history Rune was in forefront pushing for the merger in the VOTE thread that started all this (I think Rune made the proposal before BM did).  Now that he has what he wants he's trying to get everyone to shut up and just go along as quietly as possible.  To help facilitate this he just has to shake the pompoms a few times to get the crowd going.

On top of that in the confusion he's now also proposing a system where an elite few get access to secret forums for all the inside details from the devs.  At what stake threshold to gain access does he propose, close to around the amount of stake he controls...

It's just a bunch of manipulative bullshit, never let a good crisis go to waste and all that.

Like everyone else, at the very least I've not been bored haha.

Okay first of all, we are stakeholders in the same company. Our goal of increasing value should align, and it would make no sense for me to act in a way puts you at a disadvantage, as I'd also be hurting myself. If you think it would be more profitable for us to have several DACs, and that I have hurt you financially then fine you are right to be mad at me, but you have to understand that I did it only with the best intentions of increasing value for everyone (including myself). Ideologically, I would prefer many DACs, but in practice I don't think any other strategy than a superDAC is economically viable. If we did not make the superDAC, someone else would, and their superDAC would outcompete ours. Do you trust that other random community to be as honest as ours? My experience tells me that most other altcoins have pretty horrible pump n dump communities that put profit above everything else compared to this one. Since there is no other way, what I hope to achieve is that our superDAC is created in a way that stays true to the principles of decentralization. I'm of course also very excited to see what it will end up becoming.

Regarding the insider club, you're right that it's a bad thing, but consider that right now the insider club is I3 with no transparency at all. I would prefer to have absolute transparency with nothing being hidden from anyone with no barriers to entry whatsoever, and I hope we can implement that once we have achieved significant network effect. Right now it seems that I3 employees thinks it is vital to keep a lot of information secret to avoid having it stolen by competitors. I trust their judgement in this regard, even if I don't like it, and that is why I proposed the "secret insider club" of large stakeholders to be able to share this sensitive information, so that there at least are people independent from the developers who are able to hear it and report their sentiments to the broader community.

I guess delegates could also be used for this regard, but I suspect that delegates will devolve into politics and we would then be stuck with this secret insider club political elite that I think could go really bad.

The fact that I conveniently decided to put the bar exactly so that I could join the secret insider club was pretty stupid I guess, but in the end it would be up to I3 to decide who to let in on their secrets, and also since I'm the only member of the community that I know for a fact could be trusted to be honest and transparent about relaying what stage these secret projects are at, I just can't help be biased. I know the fact that I trust myself useless for everyone else but I just wanted to voice my thought process. At least I disclosed my share, it would be worse if I conveniently put my proposal at my own share level without disclosing it and then pretended it was for some other reason.

In the end I already own enough shares to become ridiculously wealthy once this blockchain takes off. I could just sit back and do nothing and I'm sure there'd be massive price bubbles regardless, but I feel compelled to argue for as much transparency as possible, and try to push the DAC in the direction that I am convinced is best for everyone. It's quite disheartening to become the target of hostility. That being said I also realize that I'm unfairly lucky to be a purely BTSX investor, and I've been insensitive to the frustrations of those that held other shares, and for that I'm sorry.

First off, thank you for the measured and reasoned response.

This whole process has my hackles up and I've been in a mood to fire shots first and ask questions later.  If I've missed my targets and made wrongful accusations then I'm sorry for that.

I'm finding it hard to believe that this merger idea was just some natural evolution and not a reaction to a reaction based on the VOTE thread.  I may be wrong and maybe the timing is just a coincidence, or maybe the initial furor on the forums accelerated thoughts in BM's head that had been percolating for some time.

I also find it frustrating that there seems to be an air on these forums of continual giddy excitement almost regardless of what's actually happening.  Owning small businesses in the past I've been tricked many times in attending meeting for "business opportunities" that turn out to be MLM schemes where everyone there has the same monotone chants and big grins to simulate some over the top welcoming environment for the sake of the few new people in the room.  Occasionally I get that sense reading some threads on the forums here.  I realize that this is probably genuine excitement and not some calculated ploy to try to hook investors, but that's just sometimes how it feels to me. 

I am very excited for DAC technology and I think it will spread and grow and change how business is done in the future (and completely transform the user/customer experience in the process).  Even if I'm not happy about the recent changes, I am very pleased that all the talented devs here are working to make this kind of technology a reality.  The truth is that of all the posts I've read from bitshares devs I do come away feeling like they have good intentions and are truthful, so though I might kick back when I don't agree, as long as the devs seem to be communicating honestly I'll be sticking around to see how things develop and try to help where I can.

As far as the inner class of information, the way I see it is that the whole project is in the devs hands at this point.  If I can't trust the devs not to abuse the information they have then I should just get out of this project completely.  I don't extend that trust to anyone that happens to grab 0.1% stake though. 

Anyway, I'm going to let all these new ideas sink in while the merger happens and hopefully before long feel comfortable enough to pick up the pom poms and join the fan boy ranks again.

[tonyk]

HMMMMMMMMMMMMM  I don't say these things because naive people paint you in the overly paranoid category.  but yea...........

20 posts a day all rah-rah bullshit and we must know the details of every employee paid via inflation.  LOL.   WTF !

Yeeh... Rune is overly exited ...indeed.

On the issue of over posting...  I do not know... I think I know one guy (who's account I use to log-in daily) that is a  TRUE OVER POSTER and in more occasions than one, is true pain in the ass for most anybody... I personally get quite pissed off reading his BS...

but I am starting  to drift off topic here.

[amencon]

I don't want to create a two class forum. 

Rune seems to be new around here (don't recognize the name from before)... I didn't even realize he proposed a merger lol.

Ok good to know, thanks for that.

[gamey]

You act like being an early adopter is a privilege, that you deserve everything you can get your hands on. Let me tell you it is not. It is a gift, maybe the greatest gift anyone has ever received - and it is time that you take on the responsibility that goes along with it.

I think we are seeing "true colors" from a lot of people, out on display for all the community to see. Who can handle the intensity of the reality of what needs to be done? I am most impressed by the ones that haveaccepted this reality, even though it may have meant a temporary personal "loss". My observation is that those who hold most tightly to their "expectations", are the ones who cry the loudest when they find out the world does not revolve around them.

I'm getting sick of Rune's thinly hidden cheerleading.  The account is not even a month old and this person is condescending to people who have been around far longer, done far more, and bought into something completely different.

He is telling us same cheerleading we heard before he was even around.

It was not an honor or a privilege to have been early investors.  We did this by making the correct decisions.  Make those correct decisions required labor and intelligence.  We worked for it.  You probably came around after seeing BTSX on coinmarketcap.  So save your bullshit for others.

As for everything else it seems fairly close to a done deal.  I'm not happy, but mainly it is over the cultural shift.  It is likely required and likely a good thing.  I just don't understand what exactly these "mergers" mean or what exactly they imply and it is a source of my irritation. The value equation is very complicated and depends on a lot of small factors which have been vague and scattered about.

In the end I'd ask people to start being nicer.  I'm sure Dan never really wanted it to turn out like this, and it really is as much a proactive move as reactive I believe.  Yesterday I had a lot little jabs and snide posts.  It is hard not to be that way.  For me this pivot makes it harder to be a rah-rah fanboy as my vision isn't as much aligned with this single DAC centric one.  I'd imagine it is like being a sports fan (whatever thats like) and seeing your whole team just die on the field.  Ok.. not really.. I'm kidding.. Seriously though I will try to be more positive.  We'll see where she goes as I can't see any other project as worthy of my time.  :|

If you look at the history Rune was in forefront pushing for the merger in the VOTE thread that started all this (I think Rune made the proposal before BM did).  Now that he has what he wants he's trying to get everyone to shut up and just go along as quietly as possible.  To help facilitate this he just has to shake the pompoms a few times to get the crowd going.

On top of that in the confusion he's now also proposing a system where an elite few get access to secret forums for all the inside details from the devs.  At what stake threshold to gain access does he propose, close to around the amount of stake he controls...

It's just a bunch of manipulative bullshit, never let a good crisis go to waste and all that.

Like everyone else, at the very least I've not been bored haha.

HMMMMMMMMMMMMM  I don't say these things because naive people paint you in the overly paranoid category.  but yea...........

20 posts a day all rah-rah bullshit and we must know the details of every employee paid via inflation.  LOL.   WTF !