BM:i tell you why you are the bigest bug of bts

[BTSdac]

 

[xeroc]

There is nothing divided, there are some people that simple don't get it and they are the minority, lets see how many pages and how many new threads it will take until they finally understand.

I could say that there is also a possibility that some of those voices are from competitors or "third parties" that wanted to create themselves a superDAC and now they see their plans ruined because they will have to compete with Invictus, it's not hard to imagine a "SuperBitshares" scamcoin that offers "everything" plus it is called bitcoin3.0 and bla bla bla bla....

That's what I'd like to believe too ... not sure though ..

It's really funny if you try to imagine this minority as miners of bitcoin and Gavin Andresen trying to convince them that they have to change POW to DPOS, POS or something else. LOL!!!

[chryspano]

A House Divided

24" If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25" If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.
26" If Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but he is finished!…

We must unite  as soon as possible, to be able to stand...
If you think about it deeper, bytemaster has done all of this, to have as all united as an end result!
He want us united in the long term and not only at the early days... if you know what I mean...

I am ALL IN for...

A House UNITED !!!

There is nothing divided, there are some people that simple don't get it and they are the minority, lets see how many pages and how many new threads it will take until they finally understand.

I could say that there is also a possibility that some of those voices are from competitors or "third parties" that wanted to create themselves a superDAC and now they see their plans ruined because they will have to compete with Invictus, it's not hard to imagine a "SuperBitshares" scamcoin that offers "everything" plus it is called bitcoin3.0 and bla bla bla bla....

It's really funny if you try to imagine this minority as miners of bitcoin and Gavin Andresen trying to convince them that they have to change POW to DPOS, POS or something else. LOL!!!

[alt]

You seem to missed my point...It's not a job for you to fork the code,you just need to let 3rd think you would "if they do not give 20% to pts and ags". It's not for you , it's for them.

You don't need to ground a child for small time shoplifting ,you just need to let them think they would.

And once again , I stress my point : When I'm talking about AGS and PTS,I meant the original one,not their stake in BTS.

Toast also said something like future 3rd dac should honer AGS-PTS instead of BTS.

I've been watch you guys trying to fix this pain in the ass situation,I understand your frustration . The DNS compensation thing is a good
gesture,you've actually earned back some supports for that.

Now,you don't have to do anything ... Just a sentence in a software license ..."We will fork those who don't honer PTS and AGS if our community demands it and if we happened to have the resource to do it."

something like that.

support, I agree future independent DAC should continue honer AGS-PTS.
which I mean independent DAC means the DAC  can't build in new BTS.
I think this is not a problem, and should  persisted.
to avoid competition with ourself, III can claim all future independent DAC will all honer the snapshot at 11.5.

[carpet ride]

A House United !!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[liondani]

A House Divided

24" If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25" If a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand.
26" If Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but he is finished!…

We must unite  as soon as possible, to be able to stand...
If you think about it deeper, bytemaster has done all of this, to have as all united as an end result!
He want us united in the long term and not only at the early days... if you know what I mean...

I am ALL IN for...

A House UNITED !!!

[kisa]

Is it just me, or is a lot of the hatred for these changes coming directly from the Chinese community? The majority on this board seem to be overwhelmingly in favor of the proposed changes, but we keep getting these random attacks from Chinese board members who are absolutely against it...

Is there some kind of miscommunication going on here? These changes are necessary and will greatly benefit the ecosystem as a whole...I'm struggling to see how anyone can't see that.

I think that a lot more of them went and bought DNS on one of the chinese exchanges, and then got screwed by the unfairly low DNS allocation.

Probably right...

BM in the meantime please be assured of utmost respect from majority of the community for all your talent, leadership, dedication, fairness, endurance and hard work! Naturally in a diverse crowd people often deviate from your perspective, and its impossible to please everyone. Still, any personal offence is misplaced and should be attributed to different communication culture, emotional reactions, incoherent expectations, and possibly disrespectful character. Wish you to overcome disappointments from such personal remarks quickly!

[alphaBar]

Note to PTS holders... we didn't take your liquidity, we gave you liquidity.

PTS is liquid and remains liquid... holders were hoping for a future snapshot in a real DAC as obviously people don't want PTS just for PTS sake... until there is a "real dac" PTS holders are not really liquid.    Now they get gradual liquidity in a real DAC that is implementing all of the features they were hoping for. 

So you don't want to be locked in for a gradual 2 year release.... then sell to someone who is willing to be locked in for 2 years.  There are many buyers of PTS that are pricing in a discount for giving up liquidity and you have the option.    Be liquid and sell today... or get a larger stake over 2 years.

How presumptuous of you to think that the majority of PTS holders have such a large stake (like yourself) that they would be forced to "move the market" in order to liquidate their position. You are completely wrong about this, and you should start looking at the issue from the perspective of a person who owns a small amount (the majority of users) rather than assuming everyone has a 10% stake (like I3). For the average investor (80% of PTS users), you have taken their liquidity and locked them in for two years. Welfare for the rich strikes again. On the flipside you have granted AGS liquidity at the expense of PTS and in violation of the social contract. Thanks for the "gift" of sell pressure that was never supposed to exist.

Lastly I will say that the sharedrop model dies with this proposal. Any serious DAC that wants to use the Bitshares Toolkit will compete at least partially with the superDAC and would be insane to sharedrop to their direct competitor. This is not just consolidation, it is a hostile takeover combined with a complete abandonment of the "DAC platform" model which encouraged third parties to build on the Toolkit. Before this nonsense if BitsharesX failed there was always a possibility that another banking DAC would fork the Toolkit and sharedrop to PTS/AGS. In this way, PTS/AGS was a sort of hedge against the failure of any one DAC and was an avenue for at least partial diversification. Consolidating VOTE, DNS, and any other DACs is not as much of an issue (if done fairly and correctly), but I'm still in favor of PTS/AGS being moved to a bare GENESIS chain. My 2 cents.

[Thom]

I dream of a day where the forum feels less like an episode of The View and more like the start of an emerging technology.

+100%

[Ander]

Is it just me, or is a lot of the hatred for these changes coming directly from the Chinese community? The majority on this board seem to be overwhelmingly in favor of the proposed changes, but we keep getting these random attacks from Chinese board members who are absolutely against it...

Is there some kind of miscommunication going on here? These changes are necessary and will greatly benefit the ecosystem as a whole...I'm struggling to see how anyone can't see that.

I think that a lot more of them went and bought DNS on one of the chinese exchanges, and then got screwed by the unfairly low DNS allocation.

[Musewhale]

Note to PTS holders... we didn't take your liquidity, we gave you liquidity.

PTS is liquid and remains liquid... holders were hoping for a future snapshot in a real DAC as obviously people don't want PTS just for PTS sake... until there is a "real dac" PTS holders are not really liquid.    Now they get gradual liquidity in a real DAC that is implementing all of the features they were hoping for. 

So you don't want to be locked in for a gradual 2 year release.... then sell to someone who is willing to be locked in for 2 years.  There are many buyers of PTS that are pricing in a discount for giving up liquidity and you have the option.    Be liquid and sell today... or get a larger stake over 2 years.

I am not care about liquidity.Because it was wrong at the begining.
What i really care about is that no one have the right to destroy the white paper, no one have the right to destroy the social contract, no one have the right to be a dictator of the community.
Why does a discussion turn into a decision?And it is necessary for us  to continue the discussion  on the wrong direction?
In other words,iii create the pts/ags/bts_toolkit/btsx and we admit,but you have no right to destroy them.When they were born, they belong to the community,not you.

I don't know whether you understand what I mean, but I want to discuss so far  so that we can reduce the loss of the community ASAP.

 
I am deeply disappointed

[Riverhead]

I like where this is going,I just need to work on some fix and see if you can approve.
If we do this right,it'll actually be a great sign of understanding and corporation for this amazing community.

I would love to mend fences for all parties involved .

 

[Stan]

If we look at the numbers:

PTS/AGS got 20% of BTSX = 400,000,000 BTSX
BTSX gets 80% of BTS = 2,000,000,000 BTS
PTS/AGS get 16% of the 500M BTS = 80,000,000 BTS

So in total PTS/AGS gets 19.2% of BTS. So the social contract is only short 0.8%.

Now any DAC that snapshots BTS to bootstrap their DAC will effectively be honoring AGS/PTS.

So PLEASE tell the Chinese community that even if they are furious about this situation that they DO NOT destroy any of their accounts that have a balance.

Yes but BTS will only be snapshotted 20% I presume so they will get 20% of 20% which is 4%.

Tell them that we don't expect any forks worth while to fork at just 20%... I think third parties will do what is best... we always said that AGS/PTS was voluntariy and best practice is 10%.... not everyone does 10%.   The point is that I wouldn't worry about 3rd parties much... it would be like complaining that you aren't getting a large stake in all of the alt coins.

The people asking for semi-mandatory guidance for 3rd DAC don't care about the actual value.
Just one in a thousand jackpot would be nice to live with.
Even if they got a thousand junk DAC's 20%,they will laugh,because their faith in you were not in vain.

Even if 3rd party dac don't give 20% after your semi-mandatory guidance,they don't care.

Even if in the end,all the 3rd party DAC are Junk ,they don't care.They just want a gesture.

Happy to do more than make a gesture.
Happy to continue to make the recommendation that any 3rd party developer that honors the original AGS/PTS should be honored and supported.  Two examples are BitShares Music and BitShares Play.   

But keep in mind the Ten Laws of the Crypto Universe.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=2876.msg35841#msg35841

Developers will do what they think they need to do to succeed.
And the Ten Laws will incentivize them to honor the strongest supporters.

We promise to compete aggressively according to those natural laws.
(A much more polite way of saying what you seem to want.)

Either way we intend to show PTS/AGS/BTS are three great ways for a new DAC to win.

I like where this is going,I just need to work on some fix and see if you can approve.
If we do this right,it'll actually be a great sign of understanding and corporation for this amazing community.
I used to do lots of these PR and writing stuff for a living,so I see the significance in this specific topic.

As a leader , it's important to let the people of the community know that they still matter to the Bitshares community,not just a cold word saying that "some people do not like the plan,they can vote with their feet",that's effective,but would be wrong.

I hold you and Bytemaster to a higher standard  , because this cause of Bitshares actually meant something to me , because I believe in my heart that you guys are far more greater than other guys .

I would love to mend fences for all parties involved .

So would we.  I hope everything we have said will catch up soon through the language and culture filters.

We recognize China is our biggest base and would never, never, never intentionally wrong them.
That means using our best judgment to maximize their long term benefit and not bowing to short term pressures.
We have always been clear we are pursuing a long term vision and not trying to generate short term gains at that expense.

[joele]

Note to PTS holders... we didn't take your liquidity, we gave you liquidity.

PTS is liquid and remains liquid... holders were hoping for a future snapshot in a real DAC as obviously people don't want PTS just for PTS sake... until there is a "real dac" PTS holders are not really liquid.    Now they get gradual liquidity in a real DAC that is implementing all of the features they were hoping for. 

So you don't want to be locked in for a gradual 2 year release.... then sell to someone who is willing to be locked in for 2 years.  There are many buyers of PTS that are pricing in a discount for giving up liquidity and you have the option.    Be liquid and sell today... or get a larger stake over 2 years.

What i really care about is that no one have the right to destroy the white paper, no one have the right to destroy the social contract, no one have the right to be a dictator of the community.
I am not care about liquidity.Because it was wrong at the begining.
Why does a discussion turn into a decision?And it is necessary for us  to continue the discussion  on the wrong direction?

Please check BM post here

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10367.msg135990#msg135990

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10357.msg135858#msg135858

[Stan]

Note to PTS holders... we didn't take your liquidity, we gave you liquidity.

PTS is liquid and remains liquid... holders were hoping for a future snapshot in a real DAC as obviously people don't want PTS just for PTS sake... until there is a "real dac" PTS holders are not really liquid.    Now they get gradual liquidity in a real DAC that is implementing all of the features they were hoping for. 

So you don't want to be locked in for a gradual 2 year release.... then sell to someone who is willing to be locked in for 2 years.  There are many buyers of PTS that are pricing in a discount for giving up liquidity and you have the option.    Be liquid and sell today... or get a larger stake over 2 years.

What i really care about is that no one have the right to destroy the white paper, no one have the right to destroy the social contract, no one have the right to be a dictator of the community.
I am not care about liquidity.Because it was wrong at the begining.
Why does a discussion turn into a decision?And it is necessary for us  to continue the discussion  on the wrong direction?

The proposed next step allows the community to change leadership and change directions in ten seconds. 

[JetainM]

Note to PTS holders... we didn't take your liquidity, we gave you liquidity.

PTS is liquid and remains liquid... holders were hoping for a future snapshot in a real DAC as obviously people don't want PTS just for PTS sake... until there is a "real dac" PTS holders are not really liquid.    Now they get gradual liquidity in a real DAC that is implementing all of the features they were hoping for. 

So you don't want to be locked in for a gradual 2 year release.... then sell to someone who is willing to be locked in for 2 years.  There are many buyers of PTS that are pricing in a discount for giving up liquidity and you have the option.    Be liquid and sell today... or get a larger stake over 2 years.

I am not care about liquidity.Because it was wrong at the begining.
What i really care about is that no one have the right to destroy the white paper, no one have the right to destroy the social contract, no one have the right to be a dictator of the community.
Why does a discussion turn into a decision?And it is necessary for us  to continue the discussion  on the wrong direction?
In other words,iii create the pts/ags/bts_toolkit/btsx and we admit,but you have no right to destroy them.When they were born, they belong to the community,not you.

I don't know whether you understand what I mean, but I want to discuss so far  so that we can reduce the loss of the community ASAP.

[joele]

Happy to do more than make a gesture.
Happy to continue to make the recommendation that any 3rd party developer that honors the original AGS/PTS should be honored and supported.  Two examples are BitShares Music and BitShares Play.   

But keep in mind the Ten Laws of the Crypto Universe.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=2876.msg35841#msg35841

Developers will do what they think they need to do to succeed.
And the Ten Laws will incentivize them to honor the strongest supporters.

We promise to compete aggressively according to those natural laws.
(A much more polite way of saying what you seem to want.)

Either way we intend to show PTS/AGS/BTS are three great ways for a new DAC to win.

 

[yidaidaxia]

BM, you really should think about the Merge thing again.
The future of DAC ( including DNS/Vote etc) and BTS might all go to hell becuase your wrong decision.
You will lost Chinese community support in the future except someone who hold a lot of BTS and Agser before 2.28.
Wake up!

It's fine that different people have different view and point. But pls never try to represent for anyone other than yourself... You could no do that unless you get clear authority from the one you representing...

For example, I'm stongly supporting the new proposal (just some details like dilution rate / future third party guidlines / lock-up time need more discussion/refinement in my opinion), and at least I do not see the majority of Chinese community against the new proposal although I could not speak for anyone other than myself.

[Method-X]

So this is a meme going around in the Chinese community? Bytemaster biggest bug? lol

[Stan]

If we look at the numbers:

PTS/AGS got 20% of BTSX = 400,000,000 BTSX
BTSX gets 80% of BTS = 2,000,000,000 BTS
PTS/AGS get 16% of the 500M BTS = 80,000,000 BTS

So in total PTS/AGS gets 19.2% of BTS. So the social contract is only short 0.8%.

Now any DAC that snapshots BTS to bootstrap their DAC will effectively be honoring AGS/PTS.

So PLEASE tell the Chinese community that even if they are furious about this situation that they DO NOT destroy any of their accounts that have a balance.

Yes but BTS will only be snapshotted 20% I presume so they will get 20% of 20% which is 4%.

Tell them that we don't expect any forks worth while to fork at just 20%... I think third parties will do what is best... we always said that AGS/PTS was voluntariy and best practice is 10%.... not everyone does 10%.   The point is that I wouldn't worry about 3rd parties much... it would be like complaining that you aren't getting a large stake in all of the alt coins.

The people asking for semi-mandatory guidance for 3rd DAC don't care about the actual value.
Just one in a thousand jackpot would be nice to live with.
Even if they got a thousand junk DAC's 20%,they will laugh,because their faith in you were not in vain.

Even if 3rd party dac don't give 20% after your semi-mandatory guidance,they don't care.

Even if in the end,all the 3rd party DAC are Junk ,they don't care.They just want a gesture.

Happy to do more than make a gesture.
Happy to continue to make the recommendation that any 3rd party developer that honors the original AGS/PTS should be honored and supported.  Two examples are BitShares Music and BitShares Play.   

But keep in mind the Ten Laws of the Crypto Universe.

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=2876.msg35841#msg35841

Developers will do what they think they need to do to succeed.
And the Ten Laws will incentivize them to honor the strongest supporters.

We promise to compete aggressively according to those natural laws.
(A much more polite way of saying what you seem to want.)

Either way we intend to show PTS/AGS/BTS are three great ways for a new DAC to win.

[pgbit]

I know of at least one third party that is still considering honoring PTS and another is considering taking over PTS support since it is already a living, traded, high ranking coin on coinmarketcap.com.

There is an opportunity sitting there for entrepreneurs to attract a big bunch of supporters looking for something to do with their PTS.  We will support this strongly.   

"When you're finished changing, you're finished."

Benjamin Franklin

[bytemaster]

If we look at the numbers:

PTS/AGS got 20% of BTSX = 400,000,000 BTSX
BTSX gets 80% of BTS = 2,000,000,000 BTS
PTS/AGS get 16% of the 500M BTS = 80,000,000 BTS

So in total PTS/AGS gets 19.2% of BTS. So the social contract is only short 0.8%.

Now any DAC that snapshots BTS to bootstrap their DAC will effectively be honoring AGS/PTS.

So PLEASE tell the Chinese community that even if they are furious about this situation that they DO NOT destroy any of their accounts that have a balance.

Yes but BTS will only be snapshotted 20% I presume so they will get 20% of 20% which is 4%.

Tell them that we don't expect any forks worth while to fork at just 20%... I think third parties will do what is best... we always said that AGS/PTS was voluntariy and best practice is 10%.... not everyone does 10%.   The point is that I wouldn't worry about 3rd parties much... it would be like complaining that you aren't getting a large stake in all of the alt coins.

The people asking for semi-mandatory guidance for 3rd DAC don't care about the actual value.
Just one in a thousand jackpot would be nice to live with.
Even if they got a thousand junk DAC's 20%,they will laugh,because their faith in you were not in vain.

Even if 3rd party dac don't give 20% after your semi-mandatory guidance,they don't care.

Even if in the end,all the 3rd party DAC are Junk ,they don't care.They just want a gesture.

It is really very simple... a DAC is nothing without a team.  We can fork the code, but that wouldn't matter unless we committed to run the DAC... and then we would be competing against ourselves again.  Thus the most I can say is that we will work to out compete everyone the best we can and no one will attempt a DAC without funding, a team, etc.  So the new team behind the 3rd party DAC will have to do its best to win Chinese support.

[Stan]

Note to PTS holders... we didn't take your liquidity, we gave you liquidity.

PTS is liquid and remains liquid... holders were hoping for a future snapshot in a real DAC as obviously people don't want PTS just for PTS sake... until there is a "real dac" PTS holders are not really liquid.    Now they get gradual liquidity in a real DAC that is implementing all of the features they were hoping for. 

So you don't want to be locked in for a gradual 2 year release.... then sell to someone who is willing to be locked in for 2 years.  There are many buyers of PTS that are pricing in a discount for giving up liquidity and you have the option.    Be liquid and sell today... or get a larger stake over 2 years.

Notes from the Chinese community : they can set aside all the difficult part , but the plan must compromise to a really small gesture:

Bitshares team must announce that "Third party DAC using BTS toolkit must give 20% to ags and pts, or the almighty Bitshares team will fork
you ! fork you !!"

The guys don't actually hold you to your word to fork it ,just a gesture from the bitshares team as a "semi-mandatory" guidance to third party developers.You don't have to promise when to fork, just have to let 3rd party devs know "If you don't give it to us,we will fork !!!!!"

This compromise,don't actually cost you guys anything.But can bring many people peace (at least 50%+ of the current protesters).

No need to FORK them... their technological and economical distinctivness will be added to our own.   In other words... 3rd parties have and will continue to honor AGS/PTS for the good will of recognizing those who funded this ecosystem.

You don't understand...No one is asking you to fork them.
3rd Party  just need to know they will be forked .

Otherwise ,some 3rd party using DAC might actually success without the PTS and AGS as a starting market promotion plan.
They can win,and thinking that you won't fork them.   ----- in the end,AGS and PTS still get nothing,and yet contribute the toolkit to a 3rd Party for nothing.

You're assuming PTS and AGS are good enough market demographic , so 3rd would like to get alone with these people.But what if they can find a better demographic with far less cost ?

By the way,by 3rd party dac should give to AGS and PTS, I'm talking about the old AGS and PTS ,not give it though the new BTS

Yes, that is still an option developers will have if they decide what you are saying about your demographic is correct.  The Nov 5th snapshot will be there for all time honoring their interests separately.  Meanwhile they are ALSO share-dropped a stake they didn't have in the new DAC.  Whichever way succeeds, they will win.  They have BOTH!  (Both is good.)   

As far as being forked.  That should be obvious that it will happen - two ways:
1.  Stick:  Other third parties will see the opportunity to compete with your support.
2.  Carrot:  BitShares will be competing to attract all DAC developer's inside.

We tell them, don't compete, here's an incentive to build your new ideas on top of a fast-growing platform that can accelerate you to stardom overnight.  If you choose to compete, we will compete to preserve our network effect for all the other tenants in our DAC Business District.  That means offering our own version of emerging good ideas.  We are duty bound to do so.

Will this gesture meet your needs?

[Riverhead]

  Someone just asked me a fun question.....He said if you like your math,he would like to trade his PTS for your BTSX now , according to the value you calculated. Does that sound good?

At current prices holding PTS comes with about a 5% advantage over BTSX at the price of liquidity. I have no plans to sell any BTS so that doesn't bother me. I'm certainly not selling any of my PTS to gain instant liquidity.

Add to that the PTS doesn't evaporate. There is a possibility someone will pick up the mantle and make a go of it.

How many PTS are we talking here?

[xeroc]

Without it, every new DAC would cannibalize the former.
Now, every new DAC accelerates the former.[/center]

BAM!

nice quote!

[bytemaster]

If we look at the numbers:

PTS/AGS got 20% of BTSX = 400,000,000 BTSX
BTSX gets 80% of BTS = 2,000,000,000 BTS
PTS/AGS get 16% of the 500M BTS = 80,000,000 BTS

So in total PTS/AGS gets 19.2% of BTS. So the social contract is only short 0.8%.

Now any DAC that snapshots BTS to bootstrap their DAC will effectively be honoring AGS/PTS.

So PLEASE tell the Chinese community that even if they are furious about this situation that they DO NOT destroy any of their accounts that have a balance.

Yes but BTS will only be snapshotted 20% I presume so they will get 20% of 20% which is 4%.

Tell them that we don't expect any forks worth while to fork at just 20%... I think third parties will do what is best... we always said that AGS/PTS was voluntariy and best practice is 10%.... not everyone does 10%.   The point is that I wouldn't worry about 3rd parties much... it would be like complaining that you aren't getting a large stake in all of the alt coins.

[Stan]

Is it just me, or is a lot of the hatred for these changes coming directly from the Chinese community? The majority on this board seem to be overwhelmingly in favor of the proposed changes, but we keep getting these random attacks from Chinese board members who are absolutely against it...

Is there some kind of miscommunication going on here? These changes are necessary and will greatly benefit the ecosystem as a whole...I'm struggling to see how anyone can't see that.

well,because many people don't have BTSX , and those people invested in AGS PTS big time.
It's just a matter of interest.
I can't be convinced BTC will success,because I don't actually own any bitcoin.But if you give 100BTC to me,I would like to support Bitcoin in any way. 

Do they understand that they now do have a nice stake in BTS?

I understand....just they don't think it's nicer than the originals.
But like I said,it's totally understandable why people would react like that.

Because PTS and AGS actually stood for something to them,the value of PTS and AGS trade for BTS is not a good deal for them.

Because they don't really believe that BTS they got is enough for the "endless possibility" that the original AGS and PTS can give them.

It's not a simple math.....Because they're not convinced this is a good deal.

We are determined to make it a good deal.
We recommended this approach as the best way to deliver value to them by far.
Our power to do so is now greatly amplified.
We are BIG holders of PTS and AGS with them.
And now we can deliver on their expectations much faster.
Without it, every new DAC would cannibalize the former.
Now, every new DAC accelerates the former.

[matt608]

If we look at the numbers:

PTS/AGS got 20% of BTSX = 400,000,000 BTSX
BTSX gets 80% of BTS = 2,000,000,000 BTS
PTS/AGS get 16% of the 500M BTS = 80,000,000 BTS

So in total PTS/AGS gets 19.2% of BTS. So the social contract is only short 0.8%.

Now any DAC that snapshots BTS to bootstrap their DAC will effectively be honoring AGS/PTS.

So PLEASE tell the Chinese community that even if they are furious about this situation that they DO NOT destroy any of their accounts that have a balance.

Yes but BTS will only be snapshotted 20% I presume so they will get 20% of 20% which is 4%. 

[Riverhead]

If we look at the numbers:

PTS/AGS got 20% of BTSX = 400,000,000 BTSX
BTSX gets 80% of BTS = 2,000,000,000 BTS
PTS/AGS get 16% of the 500M BTS = 80,000,000 BTS

So in total PTS/AGS gets 19.2% of BTS. So the social contract is only short 0.8%.

Now any DAC that snapshots BTS to bootstrap their DAC will effectively be honoring AGS/PTS.

So PLEASE tell the Chinese community that even if they are furious about this situation that they DO NOT destroy any of their accounts that have a balance.

[Stan]

I know of at least one third party that is still considering honoring PTS and another is considering taking over PTS support since it is already a living, traded, high ranking coin on coinmarketcap.com.

There is an opportunity sitting there for entrepreneurs to attract a big bunch of supporters looking for something to do with their PTS.  We will support this strongly.   

[xeroc]

No need to FORK them... their technological and economical distinctivness will be added to our own.   

We are BitShares .. resistance is futile!

[bytemaster]

Note to PTS holders... we didn't take your liquidity, we gave you liquidity.

PTS is liquid and remains liquid... holders were hoping for a future snapshot in a real DAC as obviously people don't want PTS just for PTS sake... until there is a "real dac" PTS holders are not really liquid.    Now they get gradual liquidity in a real DAC that is implementing all of the features they were hoping for. 

So you don't want to be locked in for a gradual 2 year release.... then sell to someone who is willing to be locked in for 2 years.  There are many buyers of PTS that are pricing in a discount for giving up liquidity and you have the option.    Be liquid and sell today... or get a larger stake over 2 years.

Notes from the Chinese community : they can set aside all the difficult part , but the plan must compromise to a really small gesture:

Bitshares team must announce that "Third party DAC using BTS toolkit must give 20% to ags and pts, or the almighty Bitshares team will fork
you ! fork you !!"

The guys don't actually hold you to your word to fork it ,just a gesture from the bitshares team as a "semi-mandatory" guidance to third party developers.You don't have to promise when to fork, just have to let 3rd party devs know "If you don't give it to us,we will fork !!!!!"

This compromise,don't actually cost you guys anything.But can bring many people peace (at least 50%+ of the current protesters).

No need to FORK them... their technological and economical distinctivness will be added to our own.   In other words... 3rd parties have and will continue to honor AGS/PTS for the good will of recognizing those who funded this ecosystem.

[matt608]

But I do understand the people who object.
We have to acknowledge the wound in order to heal.

Agreed. After reading your post about how many of the Chinese only held PTS/AGS I can understand their pain. However keep in mind the following:

While the company formally known as I3 has honored the social contract twice (once for BTSX and again for BTS) they most likely won't in the future as they will all be working for the BitShares DAC and not releasing new DACs.

There is no reason other third party DAC creators (like Music) can't honor the social contract of PTS though likely they won't need to because...

If you hold PTS/AGS you are in the genesis block of BTS. Any DAC that forks BitShares Toolkit is also going to have those PTS/AGS in their genesis block if they decide to do a BTS snapshot (and I don't see why they wouldn't). Am I misunderstanding that?

To AGSer,it's not a really big deal,just the percentage seems to be smaller than 10% social consensus.
But to PTSer , it's not only about the number,it's about the liquidity ......

As to third party DAC,if AGS fund is not going to fund third party,then I don't think any third party DAC would honer  AGS and PTS.

Like I said , people are mad for a reason,it would be foolish to think they are foolish.
Unless you can convince them it would be a better deal , which I don't think anyone here can say they're sure the stake they got in BTS is going to outweigh the percentage and liquidity they've lost.

It's totally reasonable for people believed in something they already have.
Just like some of the Bitcoiners,if you want to sell them BTSX in exchange for BTC,they would laught at you..

Do they understand that without the merger they would have may have ended up with a stake in a bunch of under-funded DACs competing for a limited pool of developers and with competing bitassets?  That's not a recipe for success, like 1000 bottle rockets will never have enough thrust to get into orbit, but if you can combine their thrust it can do it.  Once the a new all time high is reached I'm sure any doubters will be happy to become fans again.  It seems they don't understand this move rescues them.  Now we have a well funded DAC with a strong strong leadership team and little competition, and the foundation for a true decentralisation with stakeholder voting on dev funding.  They are getting more control than before.  Do they understand they will be able to vote with their stake on dev + marketing funds?  Seems like these arguments aren't getting across to them.  I could be mistaken as I can only read the google translation of the Chinese talk, but there seems to be hardly anyone arguing the positive side of this.  Whereas here there are tons of converts.

Edit:  I know it's not a black and white issue and maybe there is a higher proportion of PTS+AGS investors there than here, still, it would help to have a full time translator to translate all the discussions.

[bytemaster]

Note to PTS holders... we didn't take your liquidity, we gave you liquidity.

PTS is liquid and remains liquid... holders were hoping for a future snapshot in a real DAC as obviously people don't want PTS just for PTS sake... until there is a "real dac" PTS holders are not really liquid.    Now they get gradual liquidity in a real DAC that is implementing all of the features they were hoping for. 

So you don't want to be locked in for a gradual 2 year release.... then sell to someone who is willing to be locked in for 2 years.  There are many buyers of PTS that are pricing in a discount for giving up liquidity and you have the option.    Be liquid and sell today... or get a larger stake over 2 years. 

[springlh]

I think it's important to keep in mind the mechanics behind what's going on.

1) BM and team are creating a new SuperDAC called BitShares that uses BTS as its primary shares.
2) To kick start this new SuperDAC they are airdropping 100% of the shares (2.5B) based on allocations from existing DACs.

He could have just as easily airdropped BTSX:BTS 1:1 and said, "Best of Luck!" to all the other DACS but instead gave them a stake in the new project via an extra 500,000,000 BTS.

From a traditional business perspective BM has gone way above and beyond what 99% of companies do in this situation. I've spent over 20 years working for big corporations; I've seen how ugly this can be when the decision makers don't care about those that got them to where they are. This is NOT the case here.

e: So many typos...

1. If it's a NEW DAC, then follow the social consensus assign at least 10% to PTS and 10% AGS holders, dispatch the remaining 80% to whoever you think it fit;  If you think it's just a upgrade to the current BTSX chain, fine, just go without any allocation to PTS/AGS/DNS/NOTE, let the competition begin.
2. I came to this BTS community because I believed what was written in the original white paper that we will have separate chain for different DACs.  And all DACs will honor at least 10% PTS and 10% to AGS, this was the consensus how I made my investment plan.  And now you're telling me that everything is going to a so called "super DAC" - tell me what's the difference between this "super DAC" and Ethereum?
3. And you know what is more unacceptable??  That BM pegged PTS / DNS price to X price in the market using the allocation rate - and how did him get to that conclusion?  by just an assumption?

[Riverhead]

But I do understand the people who object.
We have to acknowledge the wound in order to heal.

Agreed. After reading your post about how many of the Chinese only held PTS/AGS I can understand their pain. However keep in mind the following:

While the company formally known as I3 has honored the social contract twice (once for BTSX and again for BTS) they most likely won't in the future as they will all be working for the BitShares DAC and not releasing new DACs.

There is no reason other third party DAC creators (like Music) can't honor the social contract of PTS though likely they won't need to because...

If you hold PTS/AGS you are in the genesis block of BTS. Any DAC that forks BitShares Toolkit is also going to have those PTS/AGS in their genesis block if they decide to do a BTS snapshot (and I don't see why they wouldn't). Am I misunderstanding that?

[Stan]

Is it just me, or is a lot of the hatred for these changes coming directly from the Chinese community? The majority on this board seem to be overwhelmingly in favor of the proposed changes, but we keep getting these random attacks from Chinese board members who are absolutely against it...

Is there some kind of miscommunication going on here? These changes are necessary and will greatly benefit the ecosystem as a whole...I'm struggling to see how anyone can't see that.

well,because many people don't have BTSX , and those people invested in AGS PTS big time.
It's just a matter of interest.
I can't be convinced BTC will success,because I don't actually own any bitcoin.But if you give 100BTC to me,I would like to support Bitcoin in any way. 

Do they understand that they now do have a nice stake in BTS?

[joele]

I expect a big dump of BTSX soon from Chinese  before the merge, after that the rise and rise of Bitshares.

[fuzzy]

Is it just me, or is a lot of the hatred for these changes coming directly from the Chinese community? The majority on this board seem to be overwhelmingly in favor of the proposed changes, but we keep getting these random attacks from Chinese board members who are absolutely against it...

Is there some kind of miscommunication going on here? These changes are necessary and will greatly benefit the ecosystem as a whole...I'm struggling to see how anyone can't see that.

There is a miscommunication...and also a different culture.  MANY people in the Chinese community who were big holders of PTS/AGS did a great deal of marketing work free of charge for BitShares in China.  I actually have even heard of complaints that someone who was supposed to be in charge of marketing there was pocketing a large paycheck and essentially doing nothing (this is just hearsay from my connections with that side of the community...but something valuable to know nonetheless).  Please correct me if I am wrong everyone. 

With that said...I think it might not be a bad idea for DAPPs? that eventually are plugged into the SuperDAC can still give a % of their native tokens to PTS/AGS holders...or SOMETHING that returns the value for those people.  The Chinese community, honestly, is going to either become the heart and soul of bitshares or its worst enemy...I personally prefer the former to the latter.   

[Riverhead]

I think it's important to keep in mind the mechanics behind what's going on.

1) BM and team are creating a new SuperDAC called BitShares that uses BTS as its primary shares.
2) To kick start this new SuperDAC they are airdropping 100% of the shares (2.5B) based on allocations from existing DACs.

He could have just as easily airdropped BTSX:BTS 1:1 and said, "Best of Luck!" to all the other DACS but instead gave them a stake in the new project via an extra 500,000,000 BTS.

From a traditional business perspective BM has gone way above and beyond what 99% of companies do in this situation. I've spent over 20 years working for big corporations; I've seen how ugly this can be when the decision makers don't care about those that got them to where they are. This is NOT the case here.

e: So many typos...

[lzr1900]

Bm,i am with u.
Merger is a better solution for the future development.
I am from Chinese.

[lil_jay890]

Don't change the proposal... It will work and gives us the greatest chance at exponential growth.  It seems like many in the Chinese community can't grasp at the idea of short term pain for long term gain.  I'll gladly take all their shares.

[networker]

BM, you really should think about the Merge thing again.
The future of DAC ( including DNS/Vote etc) and BTS might all go to hell becuase your wrong decision.
You will lost Chinese community support in the future except someone who hold a lot of BTS and Agser before 2.28.
Wake up!

[joele]

Is it just me, or is a lot of the hatred for these changes coming directly from the Chinese community? The majority on this board seem to be overwhelmingly in favor of the proposed changes, but we keep getting these random attacks from Chinese board members who are absolutely against it...

Is there some kind of miscommunication going on here? These changes are necessary and will greatly benefit the ecosystem as a whole...I'm struggling to see how anyone can't see that.

I believe it's miscommunication, BM english is like shakespeare to me, I need to read carefully and sometimes google the meaning.
What more to those who totally just using google translate. 

[chryspano]

There are 7327 members in the forum this moment, I think its acceptable that some of those "don't get it" and will never be able to see the "bigger picture".

Stan uses to say "You need to think BIGGER, Pinky..." but some people just can't do that, too bad for them.

[nomoreheroes7]

Is it just me, or is a lot of the hatred for these changes coming directly from the Chinese community? The majority on this board seem to be overwhelmingly in favor of the proposed changes, but we keep getting these random attacks from Chinese board members who are absolutely against it...

Is there some kind of miscommunication going on here? These changes are necessary and will greatly benefit the ecosystem as a whole...I'm struggling to see how anyone can't see that.

[hpenvy]

I dream of a day where the forum feels less like an episode of The View and more like the start of an emerging technology.

[daidai]

my love is gone.

[Musewhale]

He forgot who pay money to let I3 to survive

Not BTSX, are AGS and PTS

But, we killed

I3's reputation has come to an end, also does not know how to be grateful

Warren Buffett said, Don't and bad faith of the people to do business

I think, today the stain will accompany you for life


And I,  will also give up the belief,  reexamine all

[GaltReport]

Your dream is my NIGHTMARE.

[cranecpa]

 

[JetainM]

If guilty, you can delete my post.
It doesn't matter!

[JetainM]

In order to save a stupid son btsx, mom and dad both have to be killed.So foolish.
Where is the spirit of a social contract?
Where is the white paper?
Where is the commitment of I3 before?
Where is the credit?

Do you think you are the god, bm? What a fuck!

I have a dream that one day there will be no dictator in BTS community.
I have a dream that one day btstoolkit will be used by many developers.
I have a dream that one day dac is konwn by erveryone.