Author Topic: BM:i tell you why you are the bigest bug of bts  (Read 11109 times)

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Offline xeroc

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No need to FORK them... their technological and economical distinctivness will be added to our own.   
We are BitShares .. resistance is futile!

Offline bytemaster

Note to PTS holders... we didn't take your liquidity, we gave you liquidity.

PTS is liquid and remains liquid... holders were hoping for a future snapshot in a real DAC as obviously people don't want PTS just for PTS sake... until there is a "real dac" PTS holders are not really liquid.    Now they get gradual liquidity in a real DAC that is implementing all of the features they were hoping for. 

So you don't want to be locked in for a gradual 2 year release.... then sell to someone who is willing to be locked in for 2 years.  There are many buyers of PTS that are pricing in a discount for giving up liquidity and you have the option.    Be liquid and sell today... or get a larger stake over 2 years.

Notes from the Chinese community : they can set aside all the difficult part , but the plan must compromise to a really small gesture:

Bitshares team must announce that "Third party DAC using BTS toolkit must give 20% to ags and pts, or the almighty Bitshares team will fork
you
! fork you !!"

The guys don't actually hold you to your word to fork it ,just a gesture from the bitshares team as a "semi-mandatory" guidance to third party developers.You don't have to promise when to fork, just have to let 3rd party devs know "If you don't give it to us,we will fork !!!!!"

This compromise,don't actually cost you guys anything.But can bring many people peace (at least 50%+ of the current protesters).

No need to FORK them... their technological and economical distinctivness will be added to our own.   In other words... 3rd parties have and will continue to honor AGS/PTS for the good will of recognizing those who funded this ecosystem.
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Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline matt608

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But I do understand the people who object.
We have to acknowledge the wound in order to heal.

Agreed. After reading your post about how many of the Chinese only held PTS/AGS I can understand their pain. However keep in mind the following:

While the company formally known as I3 has honored the social contract twice (once for BTSX and again for BTS) they most likely won't in the future as they will all be working for the BitShares DAC and not releasing new DACs.

There is no reason other third party DAC creators (like Music) can't honor the social contract of PTS though likely they won't need to because...

If you hold PTS/AGS you are in the genesis block of BTS. Any DAC that forks BitShares Toolkit is also going to have those PTS/AGS in their genesis block if they decide to do a BTS snapshot (and I don't see why they wouldn't). Am I misunderstanding that?

To AGSer,it's not a really big deal,just the percentage seems to be smaller than 10% social consensus.
But to PTSer , it's not only about the number,it's about the liquidity ......

As to third party DAC,if AGS fund is not going to fund third party,then I don't think any third party DAC would honer  AGS and PTS.

Like I said , people are mad for a reason,it would be foolish to think they are foolish.
Unless you can convince them it would be a better deal , which I don't think anyone here can say they're sure the stake they got in BTS is going to outweigh the percentage and liquidity they've lost.

It's totally reasonable for people believed in something they already have.
Just like some of the Bitcoiners,if you want to sell them BTSX in exchange for BTC,they would laught at you..

Do they understand that without the merger they would have may have ended up with a stake in a bunch of under-funded DACs competing for a limited pool of developers and with competing bitassets?  That's not a recipe for success, like 1000 bottle rockets will never have enough thrust to get into orbit, but if you can combine their thrust it can do it.  Once the a new all time high is reached I'm sure any doubters will be happy to become fans again.  It seems they don't understand this move rescues them.  Now we have a well funded DAC with a strong strong leadership team and little competition, and the foundation for a true decentralisation with stakeholder voting on dev funding.  They are getting more control than before.  Do they understand they will be able to vote with their stake on dev + marketing funds?  Seems like these arguments aren't getting across to them.  I could be mistaken as I can only read the google translation of the Chinese talk, but there seems to be hardly anyone arguing the positive side of this.  Whereas here there are tons of converts.

Edit:  I know it's not a black and white issue and maybe there is a higher proportion of PTS+AGS investors there than here, still, it would help to have a full time translator to translate all the discussions.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 02:32:27 pm by matt608 »

Offline bytemaster

Note to PTS holders... we didn't take your liquidity, we gave you liquidity.

PTS is liquid and remains liquid... holders were hoping for a future snapshot in a real DAC as obviously people don't want PTS just for PTS sake... until there is a "real dac" PTS holders are not really liquid.    Now they get gradual liquidity in a real DAC that is implementing all of the features they were hoping for. 

So you don't want to be locked in for a gradual 2 year release.... then sell to someone who is willing to be locked in for 2 years.  There are many buyers of PTS that are pricing in a discount for giving up liquidity and you have the option.    Be liquid and sell today... or get a larger stake over 2 years. 
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline springlh

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I think it's important to keep in mind the mechanics behind what's going on.

1) BM and team are creating a new SuperDAC called BitShares that uses BTS as its primary shares.
2) To kick start this new SuperDAC they are airdropping 100% of the shares (2.5B) based on allocations from existing DACs.

He could have just as easily airdropped BTSX:BTS 1:1 and said, "Best of Luck!" to all the other DACS but instead gave them a stake in the new project via an extra 500,000,000 BTS.

From a traditional business perspective BM has gone way above and beyond what 99% of companies do in this situation. I've spent over 20 years working for big corporations; I've seen how ugly this can be when the decision makers don't care about those that got them to where they are. This is NOT the case here.

e: So many typos...

1. If it's a NEW DAC, then follow the social consensus assign at least 10% to PTS and 10% AGS holders, dispatch the remaining 80% to whoever you think it fit;  If you think it's just a upgrade to the current BTSX chain, fine, just go without any allocation to PTS/AGS/DNS/NOTE, let the competition begin.
2. I came to this BTS community because I believed what was written in the original white paper that we will have separate chain for different DACs.  And all DACs will honor at least 10% PTS and 10% to AGS, this was the consensus how I made my investment plan.  And now you're telling me that everything is going to a so called "super DAC" - tell me what's the difference between this "super DAC" and Ethereum?
3. And you know what is more unacceptable??  That BM pegged PTS / DNS price to X price in the market using the allocation rate - and how did him get to that conclusion?  by just an assumption?

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Offline Riverhead

But I do understand the people who object.
We have to acknowledge the wound in order to heal.

Agreed. After reading your post about how many of the Chinese only held PTS/AGS I can understand their pain. However keep in mind the following:

While the company formally known as I3 has honored the social contract twice (once for BTSX and again for BTS) they most likely won't in the future as they will all be working for the BitShares DAC and not releasing new DACs.

There is no reason other third party DAC creators (like Music) can't honor the social contract of PTS though likely they won't need to because...

If you hold PTS/AGS you are in the genesis block of BTS. Any DAC that forks BitShares Toolkit is also going to have those PTS/AGS in their genesis block if they decide to do a BTS snapshot (and I don't see why they wouldn't). Am I misunderstanding that?

Offline Stan

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Is it just me, or is a lot of the hatred for these changes coming directly from the Chinese community? The majority on this board seem to be overwhelmingly in favor of the proposed changes, but we keep getting these random attacks from Chinese board members who are absolutely against it...

Is there some kind of miscommunication going on here? These changes are necessary and will greatly benefit the ecosystem as a whole...I'm struggling to see how anyone can't see that.

well,because many people don't have BTSX , and those people invested in AGS PTS big time.
It's just a matter of interest.
I can't be convinced BTC will success,because I don't actually own any bitcoin.But if you give 100BTC to me,I would like to support Bitcoin in any way.  :P

Do they understand that they now do have a nice stake in BTS?
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline joele

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I expect a big dump of BTSX soon from Chinese  before the merge, after that the rise and rise of Bitshares.

Offline fuzzy

Is it just me, or is a lot of the hatred for these changes coming directly from the Chinese community? The majority on this board seem to be overwhelmingly in favor of the proposed changes, but we keep getting these random attacks from Chinese board members who are absolutely against it...

Is there some kind of miscommunication going on here? These changes are necessary and will greatly benefit the ecosystem as a whole...I'm struggling to see how anyone can't see that.

There is a miscommunication...and also a different culture.  MANY people in the Chinese community who were big holders of PTS/AGS did a great deal of marketing work free of charge for BitShares in China.  I actually have even heard of complaints that someone who was supposed to be in charge of marketing there was pocketing a large paycheck and essentially doing nothing (this is just hearsay from my connections with that side of the community...but something valuable to know nonetheless).  Please correct me if I am wrong everyone. 

With that said...I think it might not be a bad idea for DAPPs? that eventually are plugged into the SuperDAC can still give a % of their native tokens to PTS/AGS holders...or SOMETHING that returns the value for those people.  The Chinese community, honestly, is going to either become the heart and soul of bitshares or its worst enemy...I personally prefer the former to the latter.   
WhaleShares==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
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Offline Riverhead


I think it's important to keep in mind the mechanics behind what's going on.

1) BM and team are creating a new SuperDAC called BitShares that uses BTS as its primary shares.
2) To kick start this new SuperDAC they are airdropping 100% of the shares (2.5B) based on allocations from existing DACs.

He could have just as easily airdropped BTSX:BTS 1:1 and said, "Best of Luck!" to all the other DACS but instead gave them a stake in the new project via an extra 500,000,000 BTS.

From a traditional business perspective BM has gone way above and beyond what 99% of companies do in this situation. I've spent over 20 years working for big corporations; I've seen how ugly this can be when the decision makers don't care about those that got them to where they are. This is NOT the case here.

e: So many typos...
« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 01:14:07 pm by Riverhead »

lzr1900

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Bm,i am with u.
Merger is a better solution for the future development.
I am from Chinese.

Offline lil_jay890

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Don't change the proposal... It will work and gives us the greatest chance at exponential growth.  It seems like many in the Chinese community can't grasp at the idea of short term pain for long term gain.  I'll gladly take all their shares.

Offline networker

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BM, you really should think about the Merge thing again.
The future of DAC ( including DNS/Vote etc) and BTS might all go to hell becuase your wrong decision.
You will lost Chinese community support in the future except someone who hold a lot of BTS and Agser before 2.28.
Wake up!

Offline joele

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Is it just me, or is a lot of the hatred for these changes coming directly from the Chinese community? The majority on this board seem to be overwhelmingly in favor of the proposed changes, but we keep getting these random attacks from Chinese board members who are absolutely against it...

Is there some kind of miscommunication going on here? These changes are necessary and will greatly benefit the ecosystem as a whole...I'm struggling to see how anyone can't see that.

I believe it's miscommunication, BM english is like shakespeare to me, I need to read carefully and sometimes google the meaning.
What more to those who totally just using google translate. 

chryspano

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There are 7327 members in the forum this moment, I think its acceptable that some of those "don't get it" and will never be able to see the "bigger picture".

Stan uses to say "You need to think BIGGER, Pinky..." but some people just can't do that, too bad for them.