SEC letters being sent. It's not pretty.

[Empirical1.1]

WSJ quotes bytemaster:

...BitShares, which uses the eponymous name "bitshares" to describe tokens issued by autonomous, software-driven companies over its independent blockchain-based software, says these are not securities either, despite their name. The implied reference to corporate shares is "an analogy," says Daniel Larimer, CEO of Invictus Innovations, which developed the BitShares project. "I could use other analogies that view the dollar as stock in the United States. An analogy does not create a security." The key, he said, is that there is no contract between two parties contained in the digital tokens.

http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2014/10/28/bitbeat-bitcoin-2-0-companies-respond-to-sec-rumor-were-clean/

+5%

[Ander]

Love that quote in WSJ! 

[cube]

WSJ quotes bytemaster:

...BitShares, which uses the eponymous name "bitshares" to describe tokens issued by autonomous, software-driven companies over its independent blockchain-based software, says these are not securities either, despite their name. The implied reference to corporate shares is "an analogy," says Daniel Larimer, CEO of Invictus Innovations, which developed the BitShares project. "I could use other analogies that view the dollar as stock in the United States. An analogy does not create a security." The key, he said, is that there is no contract between two parties contained in the digital tokens.

http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2014/10/28/bitbeat-bitcoin-2-0-companies-respond-to-sec-rumor-were-clean/

It is a good read.  Ethereum's Joseph is sharing the same view -  "tokens... had no contractual rights attached to them".   SEC has declined to comment.

With WSJ's publication, this may turn out to be free publicity for bitshares.

[donkeypong]

Good!

[werneo]

WSJ quotes bytemaster:

...BitShares, which uses the eponymous name "bitshares" to describe tokens issued by autonomous, software-driven companies over its independent blockchain-based software, says these are not securities either, despite their name. The implied reference to corporate shares is "an analogy," says Daniel Larimer, CEO of Invictus Innovations, which developed the BitShares project. "I could use other analogies that view the dollar as stock in the United States. An analogy does not create a security." The key, he said, is that there is no contract between two parties contained in the digital tokens.

http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2014/10/28/bitbeat-bitcoin-2-0-companies-respond-to-sec-rumor-were-clean/

[gamey]

Coinfire, never heard of them before this.

I'm wondering if this is even real or bullshit.  Are there better more reputable sources ?

CoinFire spends a lot of time on letstalkbitcoin.com in the forums.  Nice guy.  I'm read a couple other interesting articles on his site, long before this.

Got it!

Picture painting post!

Explains A TON!

So funny because it is so true.

[tonyk]

Coinfire, never heard of them before this.

I'm wondering if this is even real or bullshit.  Are there better more reputable sources ?

CoinFire spends a lot of time on letstalkbitcoin.com in the forums.  Nice guy.  I'm read a couple other interesting articles on his site, long before this.

Got it!

Picture painting post!

Explains A TON!

[yellowecho]

Since we have not received anything I can post that we have not received anything.

LOL.. make a thread w/ daily update

ROFL

LOL YES!  Please do this hahaha

[mbaeichapareiko]

well,  maybe it was all just an FUD attempt.. I see xcp price took a dive from the rumor.

[mint chocolate chip]

Coindesk says the whole thing might be bullshit:

http://www.coindesk.com/crypto-2-0-companies-rebuff-sec-crackdown-rumors/

My first take when I read it was that it was probably fake or way overblown simply for the fact that having to handle hundreds of anything like this is a serious amount of work. I doubt any government department wants to or is equipped to take on that much all at once.

[donkeypong]

Coindesk says the whole thing might be bullshit:

http://www.coindesk.com/crypto-2-0-companies-rebuff-sec-crackdown-rumors/

[gamey]

The gag order is not new for these types of things. They don't want the word to get out and have companies destroying documents before they get their letter.

ahhhh that makes sense.  I was wondering what the rational would be.  So bizarre the government can do that in such matters.  Sigh.  I was hoping it was legitimate FUD but of course government aholes have to protect people by their crony capitalism.

[Riverhead]

The gag order is not new for these types of things. They don't want the word to get out and have companies destroying documents before they get their letter.

[URSAY]

Coinfire, never heard of them before this.

I'm wondering if this is even real or bullshit.  Are there better more reputable sources ?

CoinFire spends a lot of time on letstalkbitcoin.com in the forums.  Nice guy.  I'm read a couple other interesting articles on his site, long before this. 

[gamey]

I am not a lawyer, but I find it suspect that the SEC could send out these letters and force companies to not publicly respond.

That is the realm of national security matters.  I was shocked SEC/FINCEN could do such a thing, but no one else objected so I didn't mention anything.

Now the original site is no longer up or at least is being DDOS'd.  Coinfire, never heard of them before this.

I'm wondering if this is even real or bullshit.  Are there better more reputable sources ?

I doubt SEC could hush anyone anyway without a judges order.  Are there SEC judges rubberstamping these letters ?   Are there SEC judges? 

[luckybit]

Just got a call from the Wall St. Journal about this topic.  They have been calling around to all of the major crypto projects and so far no one has reported receiving any communication from the SEC.

Either US mail is slow or the "letters being sent" really means "they are planning on sending letters, but haven't yet".       

From what I gather all major projects have been operating under the assumption that eventually the SEC would contact them and everyone has taken measures they believe will protect them.

If there was some kind of SEC violation then couldn't the community donate to a legal defense fund or use a gift economy where people who give whatever resources they can are made into hero members of the community?

I think Bitshares as a community could survive a black swan SEC event. I think if the SEC is going to target everyone in an entire industry then it could only be political persecution. We are talking about victimless crimes here and if you do talk to the media they have to know that it's a victimless crime. It is also important to restructure fully into a gift economy so remove all "investors" and similar concepts from everything we do going into the future.

I'm no lawyer but from what I see the only thing that could get Invictus in trouble would be poor choice of words in marketing. If the SEC decides to make a case out of that (and they could) then it will likely generate a lot of media attention but I doubt it would be favorable media attention for the SEC. I already wonder what the other projects are going to say to the media.

So hopefully Bitshares gets a mention in The Wall Street Journal. Thank you SEC!

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

If the SEC is sending letters by the hundreds it's going to be a scandal no doubt.

Do you think it's an accident that they choose to do this right before election day?

[Riverhead]

So hopefully Bitshares gets a mention in The Wall Street Journal. Thank you SEC!

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

[bytemaster]

Just got a call from the Wall St. Journal about this topic.  They have been calling around to all of the major crypto projects and so far no one has reported receiving any communication from the SEC.

Either US mail is slow or the "letters being sent" really means "they are planning on sending letters, but haven't yet".       

From what I gather all major projects have been operating under the assumption that eventually the SEC would contact them and everyone has taken measures they believe will protect them.

[Mysto]

http://www.jewishproblem.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/shut-it-down-jew.jpg

OMG, ROFL !!

+5% +5% LOL

Yea that is a good idea but would they still be able to go after the individuals who ran I3?

[tonyk]

Is it a bad Idea to close officially I3 ?
I assume it will be difficult to sent a letter to a company that doesn't exist...

This letter is not something worth closing a company for. It just requires hours of document collection/preparation... Sending hundreds of those letters is the really unfortunate part of this approach. Resulting in hundreds of thousand of hours (money) spent by different businesses so SEC can chose the 1% of those companies to  target for real... aside from the notion of 'guilty until proven innocent' that this approach carries, of course.

[GaltReport]

OMG, ROFL !!

[liondani]

[liondani]

Is it a bad Idea to close officially I3 ?
I assume it will be difficult to sent a letter to a company that doesn't exist...

[sschechter]

Simple question - do I clear out my Cryptsy balance?

Always.

Cryptsy is listed on CryptoStocks - certainly questionable  and a legitimate risk
https://cryptostocks.com/securities/57

[Empirical1.1]

Well good luck whatever happens

[Riverhead]

For us it is most likely going to come down to a debate on whether AGS was an unlicensed security and whether our insistance that it was a No Strings Attached Gift was sufficient.

This was always my understanding and I feel that while people were hopeful they'd get something in return it was never promised. I have zero AGS (other than my founder donations) due to this understanding. Sure, in hind sight that was a bad choice by me, but it was the correct one with the information I had at the time.

Also, AGS was NOT shares in I3 or a DAC so it doesn't pass the sniff test of an IPO.

[bytemaster]

They are sending out letters to everyone it seems. Silly to hope that we won't get one.

Such a broad approach seems like a fishing exorcize...  scare a bunch of little guys and discourage anyone from attempting it again.

PeerTracks has already been given written approval by SEC for what they are doing specifically (as far as I understand). 

For us it is most likely going to come down to a debate on whether AGS was an unlicensed security and whether our insistance that it was a No Strings Attached Gift was sufficient. 

[vlight]

Cool, i hope they find people behind Visacoin scam.

::)

[CLains]

They are sending out letters to everyone it seems. Silly to hope that we won't get one.

[Troglodactyl]

Simple question - do I clear out my Cryptsy balance?

Always.

*agreed* .. no matter the currency!

Let me rephrase; I keep a small amount there, do I clear even that out?

Put it another way, are they in trouble too? I thought they were good with all their certifications.

If you're intending to do high risk trading based on volatility from the SEC threats against everyone, then weigh that potential against the counterparty risk.  If you're not going to trade in the immediate future anyway there's no point in exposing yourself to the risk of Cryptsy.

[johncitizen]

Simple question - do I clear out my Cryptsy balance?

They do that for you

[sumantso]

Simple question - do I clear out my Cryptsy balance?

Always.

*agreed* .. no matter the currency!

Let me rephrase; I keep a small amount there, do I clear even that out?

Put it another way, are they in trouble too? I thought they were good with all their certifications.

[xeroc]

Simple question - do I clear out my Cryptsy balance?

Always.

*agreed* .. no matter the currency!

[Troglodactyl]

Simple question - do I clear out my Cryptsy balance?

Always.

[sumantso]

Simple question - do I clear out my Cryptsy balance?

[luckybit]

I hope now people understand why I mentioned the gift economy and Bitshares Cooperative. It's not going to be possible to do any more crowd sale IPOs.

I think overall the crypto community will adapt out of necessity.

Got a link, or care to go into more detail about this plan?

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10468.0
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10645.0

[monsterer]

I hope now people understand why I mentioned the gift economy and Bitshares Cooperative. It's not going to be possible to do any more crowd sale IPOs.

I think overall the crypto community will adapt out of necessity.

Got a link, or care to go into more detail about this plan?

[monsterer]

Though I'm not really sure who they would arrest or charge in a DAY. I guess they could go after some of the delegates.

They'll just follow the money, they wont care about terminology. If they can find a company or individual at the other end of it, that's where their interest will be focused.

[cass]

Since we have not received anything I can post that we have not received anything.

LOL.. make a thread w/ daily update

ROFL

[JA]

After I clicked the 2nd page of this thread my Chrome browser shows this warning message
The site ahead contains malware

Attackers currently on s14.directupload.net might attempt to install dangerous programs on your computer that steal or delete your information (for example, photos, passwords, messages, and credit cards).

One of the image link in the post is hosted in the directupload.net which is blocked by Google Chrome.

FYI

sorry that was me (bbx image in my signature)
the image hoster i use got hacked
i will remove all my uploaded images from that site

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10656.0

[joele]

After I clicked the 2nd page of this thread my Chrome browser shows this warning message
The site ahead contains malware

Attackers currently on s14.directupload.net might attempt to install dangerous programs on your computer that steal or delete your information (for example, photos, passwords, messages, and credit cards).

One of the image link in the post is hosted in the directupload.net which is blocked by Google Chrome.

FYI

[JA]

GHASH received a letter.

https://i.imgur.com/d2f3xmw.png

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WAOxKOmR90

i kinda like to hear that

[xeroc]

That explains why they are down for days now

you mean btc ?

na .. was talking about ghash .. but they seem to be back online again .. so maybe unrelated

[BTSdac]

That explains why they are down for days now

you mean btc ?

[xeroc]

That explains why they are down for days now

[Method-X]

GHASH received a letter.

https://i.imgur.com/d2f3xmw.png

[Troglodactyl]

I did not get that part- If somebody has received a letter, and somebody asks them 'Did you receive a letter?'

Are they supposed to lie or not initiating the discussion is good enough?

Standard answer : I can neither confirm or deny it.

"Neither confirm or deny" does not help us if we want to know if I3 has received an order. Warrant Canary gives us the information we seek.

Sure it helps us, because we already know if they haven't received an order they will deny it.  Still a warrant canary would mean we wouldn't have to pester them all the time asking...

[Stan]

:o  Stan,if than happens,you can say you've ate a nasty animal ----included but not limited to spider,cockroach,bug,snake,slug...

No, that would require me to lie - I'm not going to eat one of those.  :)

Any form of positive communication would show itself for what it was by the forum firestorm that would ensue.  It must be the absence of such communication (which would still cause a firestorm) but, as I understand it, you can theoretically not be required to lie by continuing to make statements that are no longer true.

Your actual mileage may vary.

[onceuponatime]

I did not get that part- If somebody has received a letter, and somebody asks them 'Did you receive a letter?'

Are they supposed to lie or not initiating the discussion is good enough?

Standard answer : I can neither confirm or deny it.

"Neither confirm or deny" does not help us if we want to know if I3 has received an order. Warrant Canary gives us the information we seek.

[luckybit]

I did not get that part- If somebody has received a letter, and somebody asks them 'Did you receive a letter?'

Are they supposed to lie or not initiating the discussion is good enough?

Instead of asking people to make a thread why not just analyze the price movements of a certain asset on Bitshares?

If there is a huge sell off of the BitInvictus asset then we'd know Invictus is in serious trouble.
At the same time you could guess if there was a giant price drop in BTSX in general it would be because someone cashed out millions of dollars to prepare a legal defense.

So why not just pay attention to the market?

[Stan]

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/04/warrant-canary-faq

[arhag]

It is a classic variation on a dead-man switch.  As long as one is able to deny receiving a secret order, one hasn't received it.  If one is ever not able to deny it then the absence of a denial carries all the needed information with out violating the unconstitutional gag order.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_canary

Edit: But please talk to your lawyers first before doing it.

[Stan]

I did not get that part- If somebody has received a letter, and somebody asks them 'Did you receive a letter?'

Are they supposed to lie or not initiating the discussion is good enough?

It is a classic variation on a dead-man switch.  As long as one is able to deny receiving a secret order, one hasn't received it.  If one is ever not able to deny it then the absence of a denial carries all the needed information with out violating the unconstitutional gag order.

A dead man's switch is a switch that is automatically operated if the human operator becomes incapacitated, such as through death, loss of consciousness or being bodily removed from control. Originally applied to switches on a vehicle or machine, it has since come to be used to describe other intangible uses like in computer software.

-- Wikipedia

Developers of sovereign software would be wise to establish such methods of severing any temporary scaffolding tethers that connect them to their autonomous children so that they can passively disconnect from that position of trust should they ever become compromised without being coerced into becoming a source of malware themselves. 

:)

"Admiral, if we go by the book, hours could seem like days".  -- Spock

[tonyk]

I did not get that part- If somebody has received a letter, and somebody asks them 'Did you receive a letter?'

Are they supposed to lie or not initiating the discussion is good enough?

[fluxer555]

LOL.. make a thread w/ daily update

+5%

[celticwarrior72]

Since we have not received anything I can post that we have not received anything.

Seeking legal advice early was a wise move.

[luckybit]

Sure will. This to me is how the incumbent system will fight the crypto wars. They won't try to compete they'll just bury everyone in legal quagmire.

I know Invictus has spent a lot of money on legal council. Let's see if they got their money's worth.

Though I'm not really sure who they would arrest or charge in a DAY. I guess they could go after some of the delegates.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

I hope now people understand why I mentioned the gift economy and Bitshares Cooperative. It's not going to be possible to do any more crowd sale IPOs.

I think overall the crypto community will adapt out of necessity.

[onceuponatime]

Since we have not received anything I can post that we have not received anything.

LOL.. make a thread w/ daily update

Actually, that's a very good idea. Then we would know that, if there is not an update one day, a letter with a no disclosure rule has been received.

[toast]

Since we have not received anything I can post that we have not received anything.

LOL.. make a thread w/ daily update

[bytemaster]

Since we have not received anything I can post that we have not received anything.   

[Riverhead]

Sure will. This to me is how the incumbent system will fight the crypto wars. They won't try to compete they'll just bury everyone in legal quagmire.

I know Invictus has spent a lot of money on legal council. Let's see if they got their money's worth.

Though I'm not really sure who they would arrest or charge in a DAC. I guess they could go after some of the delegates.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

[celticwarrior72]

https://coinfire.cf/2014/10/27/sec-begins-sending-investigation-letters/

https://archive.today/pVo4O

I would not want to be on the receiving end of one of these.

These are going to make some attorneys wealthy.