The Case for Delegates as Multi-Person Cooperatives

[bytemaster]

Lets calm down.  Rune is passionate and apparently young. 

Lets not judge or accuse.  Lets just do right ourselves. 

We want people with money, passion, and ambition like rune.  We just need to keep it real, open, and honest. 

[xeroc]

There are now 2 posts with several pages devoted to my character assassination.
As I wrote elsewhere I currently own only 10 million BTS and nothing else. I
bought in at 60 million. While this has been happening I've lost 50% of my life
savings because I bet all on BTS. That doesn't disturb me though, I knew what I
was getting into. Being publicly attacked like this, on the other hand, is
seriously not fun.

I hope you guys one day realize what you have done and how it would feel if
this was done to you. I guess it is in vain, though, you will simply dismiss
this as me being "manipulative".

It's neither about your character, nor is it about you intension (at least not for me)

It is about the way you approach other people in the community. We are all
grownups and can decide for our own what to do and how many time to spend what
for. And you should reread and rethink fuzz's comments which .. when you try to
be as objective as possible .. really sound "manipulative"!

You must understand, that through a forum it is difficult to see in someone's
heart, see intentions or the meanings behind any words. It's what you write
using your language that let's us interpret. Furthermore, although we are
pretty sure you are an intelligent guy and "get" what this is all about. The
aggressive way you are trying to force people to do thing (this is my personal
interpretation of some of your posts) or the way you propose (although some
ideas are great) .. some others are sold by you as inevitable .. though stupid
from our perspective (maybe).

You must also understand that it is in fact quite offensive to tell someone you
don't know in person, and learn about 3 weeks ago .. to tell that he should
quit his job to work on a highly speculative and risky business while having a
family to feed!! You just CANT do that .. though it might be a good idea ..
someday .. maybe .. but it will be the decision of that individual .. not yours
.. to make!

Let me make one think clear again, it's mainly not WHAT you say, because I like
discussions, it is the HOW you say it that makes you suspicious of our goals
and untrustworthy.

</IMHO>

A last advice: maybe you try to use less aggressive wordings for your texts.
Avoid words like: must, clearly, in the future we will, ...
In this business nothing is 100% certain .. but I see that you are as bullish
on this as most in this community. Just take it little more slowly!

[fuzzy]

This isn't funny anymore. This is paranoia. I can't believe I have to deal with publicly defending myself from something that aren't even allegations, it's just character assassination.

1)
This is simply my observation. You have control of the communications framework and universal support from the community. Well, I guess it's not universal because I will never dare set foot in your mumble server again.

I have "universal support" PRECISELY because I create events and let everyone have their own voice.  This is here for THEM...how the hell would they NOT support a completely open forum where they can attend and ask questions directly to the developer without any barriers?  This is not the "fuzzy" show.  This is the Dev Hangout...where investors get to ask real questions without ever fearing censorship.  So the People give it power---not me.  Not you...and that will never change as long as I can help it.

2)
I already explained exactly what this was, in this very thread even, you're deliberately twisting the facts by using these loaded words. I wanted it to be secret because I was brand new to the community and it was my first idea (that I scrapped literally the next day).

I understand you explained it.  I also never said you didn't.  I simply added it to the list so you could bang your head against said list to see how all the pieces of the puzzle point to something that you (a very intelligent person) should obviously consider. 

3)
I don't understand what's wrong with this. At the time I thought you were an honest, trusted community member. From my point of view it was waste not having you work full time for the DAC.

There are FAR better ways of doing what you did.  You took the liberty where you probably shouldnt have even made the attempt.  You do know we are working in crypto-where 99% of the projects are pump and dump scams, right? 

4)
I already explained in that very thread that the reason why I chose that number as an example is because I'm from Denmark, a country with extremely high tax rate and high prices. That kind of salary isn't out of the ordinary here. Also it was just an ill fated suggestion, there is no way I could possibly control what kind of salary a "community manager" gets.

You "explained" that after people showed how stunned they were at your proposal.  Looked like more of a back step but that is ok.  We all make our errors in judgment.  This list is to HELP CLARIFY where you went wrong.  (Didn't you read the very first part of my post??)

5)
That very mumble session had been cluttered because everyone had been un muted and spoke over each other. That's simply how things are done once you start scaling up phone conferences or Q&A.

People are intelligent enough to self-moderate.  We went from 4-5 member hangouts to 40 and have had no problems thus far.  By your logic, it should be impossible for people to drive on the highway together without massive casualties.  You are a neuroscientist man!  Neuroscientists are not dumb people.   

6)
Right, the worst that can happen is you get voted out and can then adjust your pay rate to an acceptable level and get voted back in. If I wanted to replace you why wouldn't I just compete with you??? But seriously I have never shown any desire to take over your job, all I wanted was to help you improve at it.

I never said you did.  I am simply saying you put me off with your methods...and have laid out a plain and simple list to help you recover from your folly.  Sure, I have been frustrated as well...because I take offense to people coming at me like you did.  I have to remind myself that neuroscience does not equate to behavioral psych or sociology.  :/

7)
I've written several posts where I explain why this is my opinion. This fact is even why I was/am so desperate to get things organized ASAP, and why I thought having a powerful faction of stakeholders who would always oppose a bank takeover or other potential corruption would be extremely important.

In theory that would sound beautiful.  But in practice it is as terrible an idea as I have heard...with the exception of perhaps allowing Invictus (for the time being) to be that powerful faction....As they ENGINEERED the system, have a full understanding of its innerworkings, its strengths and weaknesses, and have the biggest incentive to protect stakeholders in the medium-term. 

I've written tonnes of times why I think this is important. I still fail to see how having that opinion could possibly be suspicious.

Also, in addition to already having publicly stated that I supposedly have "1000's of bitcoins", why on earth is it in any way relevant to also reveal my majors? I don't understand how a major can possibly be relevant to me being "suspicious".

Yet again, this ALONE wouldn't have been a problem, accept that all the puzzle pieces you went throwing around fit together very nicely to paint a pretty shitty picture in my mind.  Sure that cloud could have been the Eifel Tower...or it could have been a big middle finger.  However, you somehow found a way to paint a fingernail on it. 

Then it becomes slightly annoying when people come in making 20+ posts a day regarding FUNDAMENTAL restructuring and acting like they have earned our trust

Listen to yourself! I have to earn your trust before I'm allowed to speak freely, and if I don't follow these rules then I'm "suspicious"?

There are now 2 posts with several pages devoted to my character assassination. As I wrote elsewhere I currently own only 10 million BTS and nothing else. I bought in at 60 million. While this has been happening I've lost 50% of my life savings because I bet all on BTS. That doesn't disturb me though, I knew what I was getting into. Being publicly attacked like this, on the other hand, is seriously not fun.

I hope you guys one day realize what you have done and how it would feel if this was done to you. I guess it is in vain, though, you will simply dismiss this as me being "manipulative".

I WILL NEVER know how it feels because I would NEVER think to approach people as you have done!  My lord man! Listen to yourself...take a deep breath and have some empathy for OUR COMMUNITY!  This isn't some game where people come in day one and tell people how this community will gain consensus.  You obviously wanted to increase your own influence WAY too fast for the comfort of many here.  Accept you f'd up and we can move forward.  Who knows...maybe we'll actually laugh at this someday.  But until you can take a seat and recognize this, I don't see how we can.  (I honestly would LOVE to be able to...)

P.S.  it was never funny to me.  It was actually offensive more than I have been offended in awhile.  Trust me, there are many newbies who have come here and enjoyed open arms...but then again, they didn't do any of the 8 items on the above list.  And if they did, they got hell for it too..

[TurkeyLeg]

Rune - I think if you removed some of your rhetoric and bluster from the forum, and stuck to concise, practical posts about the topics at hand, it would go a long way to improving your reputation with some of the members.

Just my two BTS.

[Rune]

Seemingly with the expectation that Fuz start up a slate. rofl

"seemingly with the expectation" that he would start up a slate? Is that what this is about? I tried to be nice to fuzzy and wanted to encourage him to work full time for the DAC, and this means I'm being manipulative because I'm "seemingly" trying to be put on his slate????? Come on, using the word seemingly literally means you're admitting that I never even said such a thing, and that you've basically made up the entire accusation about my supposedly sinister motives!

Dang Rune...

It is amazing to me how you cannot see your entry into this community was full of reasons for us to distrust you.  It is odd to me that someone with 1000+ BTC, and a student of economics and neuroscience can have such a difficult time seeing how your actions have risen alarm:

1) "you are going to be the most powerful man in bitshares..."
2)  "hey btw lets make a secret group of high rollers..."
3)  "you quit your job and i'll "take the risk" to pay you to work full time...you can get a delegate up and running to pay me back"
4)  "I recommend fuzzy become Community Manager, running a delegate and being paid 10-15k a month"
5)  "These open Mumble hangouts need to change.  Questions need to go through you."
6)  "Don't worry fuzz, the worst that can happen is you get voted out (and who would replace me???  Hm...)
7)  "bitshares is going to own the world!!"
8 )  "Delegates should only have one person"

If you do not already understand, I hope these 8 points help clarify.  I am trying to make it easy for you...because I am tired.  Many of us are tired, because we have actually worked on this community for the past year.  Then it becomes slightly annoying when people come in making 20+ posts a day regarding FUNDAMENTAL restructuring and acting like they have earned our trust. 

Hubris...or ignorance.  I am not sure which it is.  I hope it is the latter, but suspect otherwise.

This isn't funny anymore. This is paranoia. I can't believe I have to deal with publicly defending myself from something that aren't even allegations, it's just character assassination.

1)
This is simply my observation. You have control of the communications framework and universal support from the community. Well, I guess it's not universal because I will never dare set foot in your mumble server again.

2)
I already explained exactly what this was, in this very thread even, you're deliberately twisting the facts by using these loaded words. I wanted it to be secret because I was brand new to the community and it was my first idea (that I scrapped literally the next day).

3)
I don't understand what's wrong with this. At the time I thought you were an honest, trusted community member. From my point of view it was waste not having you work full time for the DAC.

4)
I already explained in that very thread that the reason why I chose that number as an example is because I'm from Denmark, a country with extremely high tax rate and high prices. That kind of salary isn't out of the ordinary here. Also it was just an ill fated suggestion, there is no way I could possibly control what kind of salary a "community manager" gets.

5)
That very mumble session had been cluttered because everyone had been un muted and spoke over each other. That's simply how things are done once you start scaling up phone conferences or Q&A.

6)
Right, the worst that can happen is you get voted out and can then adjust your pay rate to an acceptable level and get voted back in. If I wanted to replace you why wouldn't I just compete with you??? But seriously I have never shown any desire to take over your job, all I wanted was to help you improve at it.

7)
I've written several posts where I explain why this is my opinion. This fact is even why I was/am so desperate to get things organized ASAP, and why I thought having a powerful faction of stakeholders who would always oppose a bank takeover or other potential corruption would be extremely important.


I've written tonnes of times why I think this is important. I still fail to see how having that opinion could possibly be suspicious.

Also, in addition to already having publicly stated that I supposedly have "1000's of bitcoins", why on earth is it in any way relevant to also reveal my majors? I don't understand how a major can possibly be relevant to me being "suspicious".

Then it becomes slightly annoying when people come in making 20+ posts a day regarding FUNDAMENTAL restructuring and acting like they have earned our trust

Listen to yourself! I have to earn your trust before I'm allowed to speak freely, and if I don't follow these rules then I'm "suspicious"?

There are now 2 posts with several pages devoted to my character assassination. As I wrote elsewhere I currently own only 10 million BTS and nothing else. I bought in at 60 million. While this has been happening I've lost 50% of my life savings because I bet all on BTS. That doesn't disturb me though, I knew what I was getting into. Being publicly attacked like this, on the other hand, is seriously not fun.

I hope you guys one day realize what you have done and how it would feel if this was done to you. I guess it is in vain, though, you will simply dismiss this as me being "manipulative".

[xeroc]

Dang Rune...

It is amazing to me how you cannot see your entry into this community was full of reasons for us to distrust you.  It is odd to me that someone with 1000+ BTC, and a student of economics and neuroscience can have such a difficult time seeing how your actions have risen alarm:

1) "you are going to be the most powerful man in bitshares..."
2)  "hey btw lets make a secret group of high rollers..."
3)  "you quit your job and i'll "take the risk" to pay you to work full time...you can get a delegate up and running to pay me back"
4)  "I recommend fuzzy become Community Manager, running a delegate and being paid 10-15k a month"
5)  "These open Mumble hangouts need to change.  Questions need to go through you."
6)  "Don't worry fuzz, the worst that can happen is you get voted out (and who would replace me???  Hm...)
7)  "bitshares is going to own the world!!"
8 )  "Delegates should only have one person"

If you do not already understand, I hope these 8 points help clarify.  I am trying to make it easy for you...because I am tired.  Many of us are tired, because we have actually worked on this community for the past year.  Then it becomes slightly annoying when people come in making 20+ posts a day regarding FUNDAMENTAL restructuring and acting like they have earned our trust. 

Hubris...or ignorance.  I am not sure which it is.  I hope it is the latter, but suspect otherwise.

Nice post .. and that's where I have my problems too .. I cannot tell about his intentions ... they may be in favor of BTS .. but the actions he takes are not trustworthy

[gamey]

Seemingly with the expectation that Fuz start up a slate. rofl

"seemingly with the expectation" that he would start up a slate? Is that what this is about? I tried to be nice to fuzzy and wanted to encourage him to work full time for the DAC, and this means I'm being manipulative because I'm "seemingly" trying to be put on his slate????? Come on, using the word seemingly literally means you're admitting that I never even said such a thing, and that you've basically made up the entire accusation about my supposedly sinister motives!

The reason I used 'seemingly' is because I don't remember what specifically was said about slates.  I think you said something, but I don't particularly remember.  I only use seemingly to express not being certain.  The rest I said I have been certain about and only do not try to talk like facts when not quite certain.

You didn't even try to deny any of it previously, instead preferring to call yourself a ""greenpeacer"".  Now I dunno, I'm making it up?  This is becoming more absurd.  Ok, you didn't ever mention slates.   

please go start a thread on the obvious and non-issue of whether topline devs can have more than 1 delegate.  Oh man forum must love you now !  What a good poster.

edit - I'll likely just keep responding to you in this thread.  I can be quite annoying that way.

[fuzzy]

Seemingly with the expectation that Fuz start up a slate. rofl

"seemingly with the expectation" that he would start up a slate? Is that what this is about? I tried to be nice to fuzzy and wanted to encourage him to work full time for the DAC, and this means I'm being manipulative because I'm "seemingly" trying to be put on his slate????? Come on, using the word seemingly literally means you're admitting that I never even said such a thing, and that you've basically made up the entire accusation about my supposedly sinister motives!

Dang Rune...

It is amazing to me how you cannot see your entry into this community was full of reasons for us to distrust you.  It is odd to me that someone with 1000+ BTC, and a student of economics and neuroscience can have such a difficult time seeing how your actions have risen alarm:

1) "you are going to be the most powerful man in bitshares..."
2)  "hey btw lets make a secret group of high rollers..."
3)  "you quit your job and i'll "take the risk" to pay you to work full time...you can get a delegate up and running to pay me back"
4)  "I recommend fuzzy become Community Manager, running a delegate and being paid 10-15k a month"
5)  "These open Mumble hangouts need to change.  Questions need to go through you."
6)  "Don't worry fuzz, the worst that can happen is you get voted out (and who would replace me???  Hm...)
7)  "bitshares is going to own the world!!"
8 )  "Delegates should only have one person"

If you do not already understand, I hope these 8 points help clarify.  I am trying to make it easy for you...because I am tired.  Many of us are tired, because we have actually worked on this community for the past year.  Then it becomes slightly annoying when people come in making 20+ posts a day regarding FUNDAMENTAL restructuring and acting like they have earned our trust. 

Hubris...or ignorance.  I am not sure which it is.  I hope it is the latter, but suspect otherwise.

[fuzzy]

By forcing them to compete with other secret conspirators..

Personally I'd like to see delegates being represented from mainstream banking and industry. For example, JP Morgan Chase putting their name behind securing the chain with their own delegate, which would in turn earn them free advertising/exposure as a supporter of new technology. [/size]

That would be a great idea, accept secret conspirators rarely actually "compete".  Just one example... "Libor"

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jessecolombo/2014/06/03/this-new-libor-scandal-will-cause-a-terrifying-financial-crisis/

Bringing in these players is likely what ethereum will do though.  So I suppose we will eventually all have to choose between money and higher principles.  Unfortunately, it seems the people talking about sheep are likely right...

[julian1]

Whatever the merits of this pitch fork session, paranoia (fuzz), cynicism (gamey) or hostility (tonyk) does have its place in ensuring the survival of this ecosystem, as a lot of things can go wrong "politically." Hopefully Rune and others will not view this as a personal attack, but rather as an immune system reaction that helps to protect the system. I would add that the community is in a sensitive period as market cap has fallen from 65 to 40 million in 30 days, and all hope rests with forces that to most of us remain distant and opaque.

Maybe I made my personal position no clear yet .. but I am all for having a group of people behind a SINGLE delegate .. What I am against is a set of delegates that are conspiring in a secret group

Anyone can be come a delegate whether it be cooperative, corporation, or any individuals as long as they are trusted.

How do you stop secret conspiracies?

By forcing them to compete with other secret conspirators..

Personally I'd like to see delegates being represented from mainstream banking and industry. For example, JP Morgan Chase putting their name behind securing the chain with their own delegate, which would in turn earn them free advertising/exposure as a supporter of new technology.

[GaltReport]

Rune want profit

Who cares if rune make you the king? If the sheep flock to you, take their fur!

We only need profit. If sheep too cold for winter, the wolves have a easy job.  Yum..rune will own this community if you like or not. Method is making a facebook! use mumble for secret...baaaah baaaaah. Sheep so tasty! Time to eat!  Some sheep been here a long time. Baaaa baaaah

You're pretty smart for a biscuit!

[starspirit]

The political aspect (and power-control) of any community cannot be under-rated, and as this community grows it is critical to discuss issues like this one, and ensure that we have the best protections possible for the community as a whole.

At the same time, privacy of communication within and between any parties is in my view a free right of all entities, whether they are individuals or collectives. In any case, it is not possible to enforce anything to the contrary. So it is important that the decision-structures in place are designed to allow for this and still protect the community. That is the challenge.

Its my impression that a benefit of allowing delegates to be collectives is that they can engage greater skill contribution from the community, and contribute so much more to it. Would non-cooperating individual delegates really maximise value for a potential community of a billion people? Is Rune's issue that single individuals will be able to secretly control multiple delegates if they are opaque collectives? Is it possible to prevent that anyway in a decentralised community where  individuals could have multiple aliases? Are other controls possible?

I think the debate needs to be clear and open without any labelling of people or intentions.

[GaltReport]

ROFL!!  Too Funny man.  Probably true as well.

[Rune]

Seemingly with the expectation that Fuz start up a slate. rofl

"seemingly with the expectation" that he would start up a slate? Is that what this is about? I tried to be nice to fuzzy and wanted to encourage him to work full time for the DAC, and this means I'm being manipulative because I'm "seemingly" trying to be put on his slate????? Come on, using the word seemingly literally means you're admitting that I never even said such a thing, and that you've basically made up the entire accusation about my supposedly sinister motives!

[Vizzini]