Author Topic: The Case for Delegates as Multi-Person Cooperatives  (Read 10713 times)

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Offline ticklebiscuit

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Rune want profit

Who cares if rune make you the king? If the sheep flock to you, take their fur!

We only need profit. If sheep too cold for winter, the wolves have a easy job.  Yum..rune will own this community if you like or not. Method is making a facebook! use mumble for secret...baaaah baaaaah. Sheep so tasty! Time to eat!  Some sheep been here a long time. Baaaa baaaah

Offline gamey

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I was there when you were talking to Fuz last Friday because it was between the 2 hangouts we had that day (the other one being okturtles).  I wanted to really hear you in action.  One thing I distinctly remember is that when Fuz balked at being an inflating delegate, you laughed as you informed him the worst thing that happens is you are voted out.  You didn't laugh a lot, but you laughed at that point and one other that I recall.  IMO it was quite telling, but I'd already had a strong suspicion on what was up, so my observations would have been biased.

Not to mention how odd it was that the first hangout you went to was the one after inflation was announced.  ;)

Well that is exactly why I don't get the irrational fear of inflating delegates. The worst thing that will happen in case they turn rogue is that the community will have to vote them out. Unless they're allowed to go rogue for more than 2 weeks the community will even profit from it.

I think its amazing that the ability for the DAC to pay its delegates a real salary is somehow this super evil thing, and that I'm apparently super suspicious for recognizing its potential. I was nowhere near as excited for BTSX before the announcement of inflation exactly because it will come to be known as by far the most powerful feature of the DAC. BTS without inflation isn't anything special. The fact that our blockchain is able to directly pay a competitive salary for its own development is the one feature that the entire crypto community will come to know us by, and what will result in us ultimately taking the entire crypto market cap.

I was never against inflation as a general principle.  When we discussed it previously on this site I never argued against it like others.  I'm not sure where the "super evil" talk comes from except you trying to simplify and therefore dismiss my observations.  More manipulative bullshit.

I am just pointing out the callousness towards the whole thing, which seems contrary to the public face you put on with these forums.  This on top of you wanting Fuz to quit his job and do other things while you paid him.  Seemingly with the expectation that Fuz start up a slate. rofl
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Offline Rune

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I was there when you were talking to Fuz last Friday because it was between the 2 hangouts we had that day (the other one being okturtles).  I wanted to really hear you in action.  One thing I distinctly remember is that when Fuz balked at being an inflating delegate, you laughed as you informed him the worst thing that happens is you are voted out.  You didn't laugh a lot, but you laughed at that point and one other that I recall.  IMO it was quite telling, but I'd already had a strong suspicion on what was up, so my observations would have been biased.

Not to mention how odd it was that the first hangout you went to was the one after inflation was announced.  ;)

Well that is exactly why I don't get the irrational fear of inflating delegates. The worst thing that will happen in case they turn rogue is that the community will have to vote them out. Unless they're allowed to go rogue for more than 2 weeks the community will even profit from it.

I think its amazing that the ability for the DAC to pay its delegates a real salary is somehow this super evil thing, and that I'm apparently super suspicious for recognizing its potential. I was nowhere near as excited for BTSX before the announcement of inflation exactly because it will come to be known as by far the most powerful feature of the DAC. BTS without inflation isn't anything special. The fact that our blockchain is able to directly pay a competitive salary for its own development is the one feature that the entire crypto community will come to know us by, and what will result in us ultimately taking the entire crypto market cap.

Offline gamey

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Rune found BitShares through the AMA I did in /r/BitcoinMarkets. I don't think his intentions are bad. He strikes me as being genuinely passionate about this technology and wants to see it reach its potential. Until I see otherwise, I support him.
I am not complaining about his intentions .. I a complaining about his behavior against members of the community .. it doesn't have anything to do with crypto in general .. I just cannot tolerate parts of his actions!

Listen, I didn't want to "tempt" fuzzy if that is what you are referring to. It was entirely coincidence that it ended up looking like I was doing some evil shady cabal group. What I wanted to do was to basically have a group of "greenpeacers" who would always fight for the core purpose of the DAC, which is to be a benefit to humanity (IMO). I preferred not talking about it in the public mumble channel because before I could figure out how much stake would get behind it, I'd risk being totally ridiculed to the community as a new guy with stupid ideas.

At no point was it my intention to be malicious or dishonest to anyone. That instance is the only one I can think of that could have made you angry at me, if it's not that then I seriously have no clue.

I was there when you were talking to Fuz last Friday because it was between the 2 hangouts we had that day (the other one being okturtles).  I wanted to really hear you in action.  One thing I distinctly remember is that when Fuz balked at being an inflating delegate, you laughed as you informed him the worst thing that happens is you are voted out.  You didn't laugh a lot, but you laughed at that point and one other that I recall.  IMO it was quite telling, but I'd already had a strong suspicion on what was up, so my observations would have been biased.

Not to mention how odd it was that the first hangout you went to was the one after inflation was announced.  ;)
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Offline Rune

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Rune found BitShares through the AMA I did in /r/BitcoinMarkets. I don't think his intentions are bad. He strikes me as being genuinely passionate about this technology and wants to see it reach its potential. Until I see otherwise, I support him.
I am not complaining about his intentions .. I a complaining about his behavior against members of the community .. it doesn't have anything to do with crypto in general .. I just cannot tolerate parts of his actions!

Listen, I didn't want to "tempt" fuzzy if that is what you are referring to. It was entirely coincidence that it ended up looking like I was doing some evil shady cabal group. What I wanted to do was to basically have a group of "greenpeacers" who would always fight for the core purpose of the DAC, which is to be a benefit to humanity (IMO). I preferred not talking about it in the public mumble channel because before I could figure out how much stake would get behind it, I'd risk being totally ridiculed to the community as a new guy with stupid ideas.

At no point was it my intention to be malicious or dishonest to anyone. That instance is the only one I can think of that could have made you angry at me, if it's not that then I seriously have no clue.

Offline luckybit

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Whatever the merits of this pitch fork session, paranoia (fuzz), cynicism (gamey) or hostility (tonyk) does have its place in ensuring the survival of this ecosystem, as a lot of things can go wrong "politically." Hopefully Rune and others will not view this as a personal attack, but rather as an immune system reaction that helps to protect the system. I would add that the community is in a sensitive period as market cap has fallen from 65 to 40 million in 30 days, and all hope rests with forces that to most of us remain distant and opaque.
+5%

Maybe I made my personal position no clear yet .. but I am all for having a group of people behind a SINGLE delegate .. What I am against is a set of delegates that are conspiring in a secret group

Anyone can be come a delegate whether it be cooperative, corporation, or any individuals as long as they are trusted.

How do you stop secret conspiracies?
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Offline luckybit

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However, if each delegate has multiple participants, it is FAR more difficult to get all of them to secretly collude.  It is also FAR more difficult a task for the "Community Manager" to control them.  This situation actually happened.  And in case the quotation marks around every instance of the word "hypothetical" failed to denote my sarcasm...This was NOT a hypothetical situation--it actually happened.   

I have said it once in this thread:  https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10344.msg141609#msg141609 

I am sorry Ghensto.  I let you down.  I am not an infiltrator...I am a person with an honest heart who is terrified at what humanity is capable of when "profit" is on the line.  I have attempted to do as you said, even sent emails to both of these hypothetical figures telling them they could be on the Beyond Bitcoin Delegate slate so I could gain more money--to use as a tool to fight these people...but I can't do it.  I have to do what is in my heart...and that is what I have always done, be it popular or unpopular. 

Let the f'ing "politics" begin.   :(

My input is that in terms of security small groups of 3-5 participants are the maximum that you need to represent a collective delegate. Larger than this and communication becomes difficult while smaller than this could result in easy corruptibility.

Reputation should be quantifiable, but it is very likely that politics will play a role. At some point factions are going to form and having regional cooperatives which then are populated by collectives of 3-4 individuals per clique within the cooperative is how you can decentralize the entire ecosystem while making it difficult to attack.

References
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1149843
http://people.su.se/~yvze0888/Ballester%20Calvo%20Zenou%20Econometrica%202006.pdf
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 07:33:15 pm by luckybit »
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Offline sschechter

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Rune found BitShares through the AMA I did in /r/BitcoinMarkets. I don't think his intentions are bad. He strikes me as being genuinely passionate about this technology and wants to see it reach its potential. Until I see otherwise, I support him.

 +5% While I didn't agree with his inflation giveaway idea, he makes good contributions to the community.
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Offline donkeypong

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Quote
Secret meetings should be outlawed in a Decentralized Autonomous Community.  :)

I principally agree, but it would be impossible to enforce. Personal communication can and should be 100% private, but professional communication should preferably be as transparent and non-secret as possible (with the option of the delegates to remain pseudonomous I don't think it would be privacy invasion).

The next best thing, IMO, is to at least have a social consensus of 1 delegate = 1 human. Then it will be possible to detect if there is secret communication between delegates that e.g. are working together on the same project, because it should be easiest for them to communicate in the DAC framework that they are both active members of (if we observe collaboration but no such communication, then we can assume they are secretly communicating).

Again, obviously secret communication can never be prevented, but large secret power/trust structures can be made much more difficult to construct.

Fuzz and xeroc are pillars of BitShares. They give of their time to help this community, often reaching beyond it to help others as well, and they receive practically nothing in return. Rune, I think you've been a great addition and you are very welcome here. Differences of opinion are fine; they're great. But if you've done something to cross these folks, then you've done something that should be re-considered. As for how to handle that, I leave it up to you.

Let me suggest a possible middle ground. Rune has the right idea in terms of pushing for full transparency. But I really don't see how it would be any easier to detect secret collaboration when a delegate is one person rather than a group of persons. Whatever the structure, there is plenty of potential for fraud, but with grater scale and broader ownership, this risk decreases. We're just going to have to watch out for that sort of thing and have some trusted members who blow the whistle when they spot anything weird. Remember, we have the power of the poll: Don't like what they're doing? Vote them out. And use your standing with the community to campaign to get them voted out.

I think a group delegate or cooperative delegate can be a wonderful addition. Hopefully, there should be enough delegate income to go around and to fund some groups who are performing worthy services on behalf of the BitShares Community. I strongly support multi-person delegates.

And yet I do see Rune's point to some degree. Suggestions: (1) What about suggesting that Cooperative Delegates disclose their principal (or all) members? (2) Another option would be to handle them like Limited Partnerships (LPs) in the United States where there is essentially one active, managing partner who runs the delegate's business, and the possibility of other passive partners who are helpers, investors, etc., who are involved less in the management and largely stay in the background? That front person would be expected to communicate with the community, etc., and put his/her reputation on the line.

Just some brainstormed thoughts. Feel free to discuss or suggest alternatives.
 
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 07:20:23 pm by donkeypong »

Offline nomoreheroes7

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I think we are all upset by the price drop of BTS, and as a result we are getting angry with each other.   

Lets all not take too personally things that we said to each other today, given that we are actually just venting frustrations about the share price.

lol there's probably more truth to this than many of us realize...

Offline Ander

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I think we are all upset by the price drop of BTS, and as a result we are getting angry with each other.   

Lets all not take too personally things that we said to each other today, given that we are actually just venting frustrations about the share price.
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Offline Ander

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So at first I was a bit disheartened that I seem to give off a super creepy/dishonest vibe to everyone I interact with here... But at least I'm getting lots of attention!

I didnt get that vibe from you at all.  I get the vibe of someone who understands the vision of Bitshares and is excited about it.

(The only thing you proposed that I didnt like was the idea of using dilution to increase the bitasset yield.  But my being against that idea doesnt mean I am against you in general, I love everything else you have written about bitshares).
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zerosum

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In an attempt to change the subject

I think that


Cooperatives Are The New Turtles




Cooperatives all the way down.....
Cooperatives all the way
Cooperatives all the
Cooperatives all
Cooperatives
Coop
C
.

Offline gamey

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Whatever the merits of this pitch fork session, paranoia (fuzz), cynicism (gamey) or hostility (tonyk) does have its place in ensuring the survival of this ecosystem, as a lot of things can go wrong "politically." Hopefully Rune and others will not view this as a personal attack, but rather as an immune system reaction that helps to protect the system. I would add that the community is in a sensitive period as market cap has fallen from 65 to 40 million in 30 days, and all hope rests with forces that to most of us remain distant and opaque.
I also think we should be careful about judging people's intent too quickly. Sometimes there can be misunderstandings or disagreements about ideas that seem to turn personal.

I've never talked to Rune and haven't followed all his posts but his posts didn't jump out as malicious to me.  That being said, I can understand others may have experiences & info I don't so it is fine to share.

I for one Never thought he was malicious.  I think it is extreme self-interest and manipulation to the detriment of BitShares as a whole.  People expose their true intentions in the smallest things they do.  I could give other small examples because I talked to Rune briefly after the Mumble session last week, but like Galt said this drama is distasteful.  I had no idea Fuz was doing this nor do I understand why he felt the need to do this now.  Oh well.

edit - originally I had left off the N on never. 
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 06:36:21 pm by gamey »
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Offline xeroc

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Rune found BitShares through the AMA I did in /r/BitcoinMarkets. I don't think his intentions are bad. He strikes me as being genuinely passionate about this technology and wants to see it reach its potential. Until I see otherwise, I support him.
I am not complaining about his intentions .. I a complaining about his behavior against members of the community .. it doesn't have anything to do with crypto in general .. I just cannot tolerate parts of his actions!