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Offline jojomaster

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BTS will dilute maximum 10% per year?
« on: October 31, 2014, 04:29:29 AM »

"Future dilution will have a hard coded limit of 10% per year and will be allocated to delegates that campaign and get approval for their pay.  This 10% limit may be raised via a hard fork with shareholder approval.     Our new "social consensus" will be that "majority shareholders rule" and everything else is subject to change.   "

Does it mean BTS will expand to 2.5billion and dilute 10% of 2.5billion per year?

« Last Edit: October 31, 2014, 04:45:33 AM by jojomaster »

Offline speedy

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Re: BTS will dilute at least 10% per year?? IS THIS TRUE?
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2014, 04:32:30 AM »
Im not too worried about this because Im fairly certain BTS will grow at > 10% per year.

Offline donkeypong

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Re: BTS will dilute at least 10% per year?? IS THIS TRUE?
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2014, 04:33:08 AM »
Your title is a little off. Maximum 10%, only if delegates vote for it, and that would be for the purposes of allowing in someone who markedly increases the market cap. So it's a maximum of 10% annual "dilution", but you could just as easily call it "growth". How much do you want this to grow?

Offline jojomaster

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Re: BTS will dilute at least 10% per year?? IS THIS TRUE?
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2014, 04:37:28 AM »
Your title is a little off. Maximum 10%, only if delegates vote for it, and that would be for the purposes of allowing in someone who markedly increases the market cap. So it's a maximum of 10% annual "dilution", but you could just as easily call it "growth". How much do you want this to grow?

 ;) get it

Offline Troglodactyl

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Re: BTS will dilute at least 10% per year?? IS THIS TRUE?
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2014, 04:38:40 AM »
No.  That's not true.  BTS will sharedrop on the 5th, expanding the supply to 2.5 billion, not 25 billion.  After this point, dilution will occur only as approved by shareholder vote, and that's capped at a maximum rate that can be changed only by hard fork.

Your title is a little off. Maximum 10%, only if delegates vote for it, and that would be for the purposes of allowing in someone who markedly increases the market cap. So it's a maximum of 10% annual "dilution", but you could just as easily call it "growth". How much do you want this to grow?

Delegates don't vote for it, shareholders vote for delegates taking into consideration the pay rate they request, and the pay is taken from shareholders by dilution if they approve the delegate.

Offline gamey

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Re: BTS will dilute at least 10% per year?? IS THIS TRUE?
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2014, 04:41:27 AM »

We will have the same dilution level as bitcoin at max but it will be directed into direct and continual improvement of BTS.   8)
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zerosum

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Re: BTS will dilute at least 10% per year?? IS THIS TRUE?
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2014, 04:44:46 AM »
We will have the same dilution level as bitcoin at max but it will be directed into direct and continual improvement of BTS.   8)

Am I going blind or did Rune stole you account password?

Or just the pom-poms you found on the street and decided using them, so they do not go wasted?

Offline donkeypong

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Re: BTS will dilute at least 10% per year?? IS THIS TRUE?
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2014, 04:45:22 AM »

Delegates don't vote for it, shareholders vote for delegates taking into consideration the pay rate they request, and the pay is taken from shareholders by dilution if they approve the delegate.

A more accurate explanation than my shorthand. Thank you.

Offline Ander

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Re: BTS will dilute maximum 10% per year?
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2014, 04:49:42 AM »
"Future dilution will have a hard coded limit of 10% per year and will be allocated to delegates that campaign and get approval for their pay.  This 10% limit may be raised via a hard fork with shareholder approval.     Our new "social consensus" will be that "majority shareholders rule" and everything else is subject to change.   "

Does it mean BTS will expand to 2.5billion and dilute 10% of 2.5billion per year?

Its actually more like 6.3% maximum (bytemaster changed it to 50 BTS per block max, which for a year is around 6.3%). 
50 bts per block * 6 blocks a minute * 60 minutes per hour * 24 hours a day * 365 days a year is 157,680,000 BTS that could be created in 1 year, if we elected 101 delegates at max pay.  (Which wont happen)

157,680,000 is 6.3% of 2.5 billion. 


What is a more realistic number?  Probably under 2% inflation.  Why? Because we arent going to be electing 101 paid delegates at max pay! 
We are probably going to elect way less than that for max pay.  Most delegates will probably sit at the default 3% pay which is similar to what they currently get, and therefore the actual inflation will be much lower.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2014, 04:52:05 AM by Ander »
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zerosum

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Re: BTS will dilute maximum 10% per year?
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2014, 05:23:44 AM »
"Future dilution will have a hard coded limit of 10% per year and will be allocated to delegates that campaign and get approval for their pay.  This 10% limit may be raised via a hard fork with shareholder approval.     Our new "social consensus" will be that "majority shareholders rule" and everything else is subject to change.   "

Does it mean BTS will expand to 2.5billion and dilute 10% of 2.5billion per year?

Its actually more like 6.3% maximum (bytemaster changed it to 50 BTS per block max, which for a year is around 6.3%). 
50 bts per block * 6 blocks a minute * 60 minutes per hour * 24 hours a day * 365 days a year is 157,680,000 BTS that could be created in 1 year, if we elected 101 delegates at max pay.  (Which wont happen)

157,680,000 is 6.3% of 2.5 billion. 


What is a more realistic number?  Probably under 2% inflation.  Why? Because we arent going to be electing 101 paid delegates at max pay! 
We are probably going to elect way less than that for max pay.  Most delegates will probably sit at the default 3% pay which is similar to what they currently get, and therefore the actual inflation will be much lower.

For no practical value at all, other than being contrarian :)

157,680,000  of 2.0 billion is 7.884% max.
(500/2) Million / 2.0 billion is 12.5%   - SuperDAC airdrop inflation/dilution.

So the total is  20.384% max inflation in year #1....

Just saying....



[disclaimer] I am strongly pro SuperDAC, very strongly so, I just do not like the unnecessary overstatements.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2014, 05:32:37 AM by tonyk2 »

Offline teenagecheese

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Re: BTS will dilute maximum 10% per year?
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2014, 05:25:58 AM »
If Bitshares were a currency, I would not be o.k. with this dilution. But since Bitshares is not a currency as is more like a company, I am o.k. with it.

I think people who are not o.k. with it probably still see it as a currency. Gotta make sure the distinction is made clear and obvious

Offline svk

Re: BTS will dilute maximum 10% per year?
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2014, 07:12:23 AM »
You guys also forget to take into account that transaction fees will be burnt and thus counteract the delegate capital infusion. So the final maximum yearly inflation will be even lower than Ander's calculation.
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julian1

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Re: BTS will dilute maximum 10% per year?
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2014, 07:22:50 AM »
Not being able to tell people that Bitshares is deflationary - just like bitcoin is a big disadvantage imho.

It would be better to create a once-off 3 billion btx allocation, instead of 2.5 and create a .5 billion fund to the delegates to distribute for marketing/development.

Inflation is a bad thing and uncertainty about future unknown inflation is worse. Scarcity is what made Bitcoin valuable and it even gets enforced cryptographically.

Offline cube

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Re: BTS will dilute maximum 10% per year?
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2014, 07:57:26 AM »
Not being able to tell people that Bitshares is deflationary - just like bitcoin is a big disadvantage imho.

It would be better to create a once-off 3 billion btx allocation, instead of 2.5 and create a .5 billion fund to the delegates to distribute for marketing/development.

Inflation is a bad thing and uncertainty about future unknown inflation is worse. Scarcity is what made Bitcoin valuable and it even gets enforced cryptographically.

If Bitcoin is to be considered a 'currency' and Bitshares a 'company share' (at least what it used to be until recently), then it should be fine for a 20% dilution first year and max 10% dilution following each year.  This is because most companies (in real life) have their dilution schemes and Bitshare DAC should not be considered any different.  Dilution is part and parcel of a company's life.
 
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Offline gyhy

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Re: BTS will dilute maximum 10% per year?
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2014, 08:05:20 AM »
Must not be inflation, at least at this point

 

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