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Offline starspirit

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Online personas vs real-life individuals: a challenge for DACs?
« on: November 01, 2014, 11:38:24 PM »

A number of potential DAC ideas, such as insurance, lending, and voting seem to require at least some knowledge of participants' real-life presence, rather than be limited to information on their online persona. For example, insurance may ultimately require verifiable information like proof of age, proof of condition, proof of residence, proof of claim etc, even though BMs original concept attempts to limit the need for this. Similarly lending may need proof of real identity to ensure bad borrowers don't keep popping up with a new and clean online presence, and voting may need proof of identity and residence.

So for DACs to expand into all of the traditional areas of the economy, I feel we will eventually need new tools to deal with real-life information, without breaching privacy or anonymity when it is unnecessary.

As one example, I feel any form of insurance would require advance specification of who or what is the subject of the insurance being undertaken. Otherwise fraud will prevail if this can be determined by the insured after the fact. However, this information could be placed into a lockbox that is only opened when the claim needs to be verified.

The border between online and real-life may be a limit on the range of possible DACS, unless the two can be efficiently integrated with new sets of tools.

Offline JWF

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Re: Online personas vs real-life individuals: a challenge for DACs?
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2014, 12:04:32 AM »
maybe everyone needs their own personal hash that is their identifier? ie S.S. #?

It seems that we are dreaming of Democracy with Anonymity, but I'm not sure that is possible to the precision of error that we require. As hard as I hope for the ability to remain anonymous in our current and coming age, the truth is, we are loosing that ability very quickly. America has this issue bobbing around a lot near elections, the need to identify people to remove the election fraud. I see both sides of the issue and as I age and the world evolves, it is quite apparent that I need to adapt and accept that anonymity is going to be very, very difficult to maintain.

That being said, I'm hoping we can come to some sort of consensus on this so we can all get this bus in gear.

Offline luckybit

Re: Online personas vs real-life individuals: a challenge for DACs?
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2014, 12:06:29 AM »
A number of potential DAC ideas, such as insurance, lending, and voting seem to require at least some knowledge of participants' real-life presence, rather than be limited to information on their online persona. For example, insurance may ultimately require verifiable information like proof of age, proof of condition, proof of residence, proof of claim etc, even though BMs original concept attempts to limit the need for this. Similarly lending may need proof of real identity to ensure bad borrowers don't keep popping up with a new and clean online presence, and voting may need proof of identity and residence.

So for DACs to expand into all of the traditional areas of the economy, I feel we will eventually need new tools to deal with real-life information, without breaching privacy or anonymity when it is unnecessary.

As one example, I feel any form of insurance would require advance specification of who or what is the subject of the insurance being undertaken. Otherwise fraud will prevail if this can be determined by the insured after the fact. However, this information could be placed into a lockbox that is only opened when the claim needs to be verified.

The border between online and real-life may be a limit on the range of possible DACS, unless the two can be efficiently integrated with new sets of tools.

Create the Bitshares Cooperative.
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10468.msg139891#msg139891

Help write the whitepaper:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=10468.msg139903#msg139903
https://docs.google.com/document/d/14k4zKjt8rkY1I5aYFVSdxiDqyHofhAmo0VQfLzDyKkE/edit?usp=sharing

I've been presenting that idea over and over because it solve. Everything that a DAC cannot do in the physical world a cooperative can do. Cooperatives can do credit unions, health insurance cooperatives, etc.

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Offline JWF

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Re: Online personas vs real-life individuals: a challenge for DACs?
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2014, 12:16:05 AM »
I do like the idea of the co-op as I am a founding member of a new farming co-op in WA state that we are providing local produce to local schools and colleges. The protections that are able to be provided for the members, the ability to easily pool money and resources, and namely insurance issues are some of my favorite things about it.  I would love for us to look at this seriously after the new year, but focus on the current changes in the short term.

Offline luckybit

Re: Online personas vs real-life individuals: a challenge for DACs?
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2014, 12:17:55 AM »
maybe everyone needs their own personal hash that is their identifier? ie S.S. #?

It seems that we are dreaming of Democracy with Anonymity, but I'm not sure that is possible to the precision of error that we require. As hard as I hope for the ability to remain anonymous in our current and coming age, the truth is, we are loosing that ability very quickly. America has this issue bobbing around a lot near elections, the need to identify people to remove the election fraud. I see both sides of the issue and as I age and the world evolves, it is quite apparent that I need to adapt and accept that anonymity is going to be very, very difficult to maintain.

That being said, I'm hoping we can come to some sort of consensus on this so we can all get this bus in gear.

Democracy with pseudo-anonymity which is something different.

DACs can provide:

1) Decentralized delegation of decision power.
2) Decentralized value exchange.
3) Decentralized identity.
4) Decentralized reputation.
5) Decentralized trust.
6) Decentralized autonomous gift economy for fund raising.

And maybe much more than that but with that you have everything you need. You have the ability to vote from 1). You have the ability to exchange gifts with 2). You have a way to connect an identity with 3).
You have a way to track reputation in the form of Patronage Points, Angelpoints, Reputation Points, AGS/PTS as proof of donation, or whatever you want with 4). You can know who is trusted with 5). And with 6) you can have a DAC which is able to perpetually fund itself for continuous renewal of resources.

But DACs in my opinion must also be represented in the real world. While the DAC itself is a contract free zone the world we live in outside of the DAC has contracts with laws. A cooperative allows for the gift economy of the DAC to interact with the traditional entities. If there isn't a mutually beneficial partnership program between the DAC and traditional world then we simply cannot do certain things like financial services, insurance, etc.

To do identity you could do that pseudo-anonymously but you still need a real world cooperative to do anything like insurance. The cooperative could simply be set up like a standard regulated insurance cooperative with all registered members of Bitshares as members of the insurance cooperative. Dividends would be given in the real world via the cooperative while the blockchain could mirror the process yet be separate.

It will be important to have physical link to a cyber system. Smart property requires these physical links as well.

I do like the idea of the co-op as I am a founding member of a new farming co-op in WA state that we are providing local produce to local schools and colleges. The protections that are able to be provided for the members, the ability to easily pool money and resources, and namely insurance issues are some of my favorite things about it.  I would love for us to look at this seriously after the new year, but focus on the current changes in the short term.

I put my ideas out there on the forum. If a year from now people want to find these discussions they'll easily be able to do so. The Google doc is up there so anyone who wants to take the time to help write a whitepaper can speed up the process. In my opinion the sooner you get a legal cooperative set up the sooner you can form partnerships which could dramatically speed up the development process.

Cooperatives can allow all sorts of entities to fund development of these DACs who cannot ordinarily do so because they cannot interact with a blockchain. They can interact with a cooperative though which could mean grants, stipends, donations, or stock as endowment.

No I'm no lawyer but I've seen other cooperatives doing it and the Cog Cooperative is already up. The longer we wait the more advantage they will have.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2014, 12:22:01 AM by luckybit »
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Offline starspirit

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Re: Online personas vs real-life individuals: a challenge for DACs?
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2014, 12:54:54 AM »
luckybit, have you directly engaged key stakeholders with this idea? As they've been receiving legal advice on related issues anyway, I would be keen to understand their perspective on this.

Offline luckybit

Re: Online personas vs real-life individuals: a challenge for DACs?
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2014, 02:54:27 AM »
luckybit, have you directly engaged key stakeholders with this idea? As they've been receiving legal advice on related issues anyway, I would be keen to understand their perspective on this.

I have. But they seem busy with other stuff right now and the community overall seems confused right now with all the other big decisions which have been made.

I've decided to wait until it becomes a more obvious solution to more people. I just wanted to make sure the idea was put out there for discussion so that if we decide we want to do some of this stuff the process is started.
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