Author Topic: Stan - Bitcoin is not the gold, it's an investment account - Marketing  (Read 6495 times)

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Offline gamey

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Anyone? :)

If and when someone makes a web-client we'll know the feature set is there.

Honestly the problem with this sort of thing is the centralized nature of it.  It is likely very hard to avoid regulations so that really limits who would run such a thing.  So while the software might be doable, no one will want to host it.  Sending an email to Itnom of Bitsaphhire might give more clues.

This is largely conjecture though.  Money transmitter laws are such a ridiculous thing.
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sumantso

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I think you are over selling the desire for bitBTC by BTC holders.  They have a digital currency, they don't need a derivative of their digital currency.  BTC is basically the cash of the crypto-world.  Putting it into bitBTC doesn't strike me as a strong selling point.

Maybe you will turn out to be right, but there is no harm in trying. The reason is that there is much less infrastructure needed to be built, we just need a light BTC wallet which also supports BitBTC, and a few exchanges offering BitBTC/BTC pair. Let see how that turns out.

Offline hpenvy

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Offline hpenvy

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There's some disagreements on the exact features of the end product, however, it sounds like we're all on the page that it's a good idea to promote a Bitcoin wallet that provides interest.

What are our next steps?
Will official marketing get on board?
Do we need to create a bounty for development?
Who do we need to talk to?

This approach goes beyond just the Bitcointalk type personality, it extends to every publication (Wired, NYT, WSJ) that covers Bitcoin but rarely mentions any alternatives.
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Xeldal

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It doesn't matter which is the greater value proposition(BTC or USD), all options would be available.  Of course more people use USD than BTC, but more people currently use crypto BTC than crypto USD, and nobody has a decentralized way to hedge BTC. 

This wallet would specifically target bitcoin users.  Its not the only bitshares wallet, and certainly not the primary bitshares wallet.  Its a bitcoin wallet that you can hedge in anyway you like, or if you're die hard bitcoin, you can at the very least capture 5% on your hodl.

the appeal is similar to inputs.io and coinlenders, if you remember them.  where you could earn close to 30% interest on your bitcoins if you locked them in a CD or less just by holding them in their wallet, only they were centralized and obviously vulnerable to attack as they lost everything.  This wallet would offer far more diverse hedging options in a decentralized user controlled way. 

There's already a large group of people who already use bitcoin, it would not be a hard sell.  You wouldn't have to explain anything.  If its popular, now you have a grass roots army of bitcoin(powered by bitshares) evangelists. 

Bottom line, if its not too difficult to make a simple lightweight client like this.  Why wouldn't you?  It seems to me, an easy way to leverage the existing bitcoin userbase.  And at the time when bitshares is accepted everywhere, this wallet would still work and you could use bitUSD or whatever you like for all your purchases etc. (advanced setting | 'Change Focus=>bitUSD' |)

I think you are over selling the desire for bitBTC by BTC holders.  They have a digital currency, they don't need a derivative of their digital currency.  BTC is basically the cash of the crypto-world.  Putting it into bitBTC doesn't strike me as a strong selling point.

I think we would start to muddy up the marketing message of such a site.  Perhaps as a later feature, but I still think the interaction between bitUSD and bts to be of a lot more value.  bitBTC is more for people who are already in the bitshares world and want it to hedge, not people who are in btc.

Its not solely about bitBTC, and is not the primary selling point.   Its a bitcoin wallet with ALL the functionality of bitshares. 

bitBTC is the LEAST this wallet could do, it not the focal point.

The point is with this wallet, as a BTC holder.  I can now, without trusting any centralized exchange or wallet provider, transmute my coins into any number of assets as a hedge or purely for speculation and earn interest at the same time.   And as a baseline, its everything my previous bitcoin wallet was only now I can earn interest on my bitcoin as well.  (again, as a BASELINE, the LEAST significant aspect)

Its essentially a bitshares wallet under the hood.  By making the focus by default, a bitcoin wallet, it appeals to the vast majority of existing crypto users.

I should probably say it again.  bitBTC is a miniscule portion of the functionality of this wallet. It serves merely as a baseline feature, where even if you didn't want/need any of the other astounding features, at the very least you can earn some percentage on your bitcoin just for using this wallet. 

The wallet wouldn't require any explination/introduction or even a mention of bitshares or bitANYTING ... the wallet simply works  ....oh and look its "powered by bitshares"  whats bitshares?  it doesn't matter.

Offline gamey

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It doesn't matter which is the greater value proposition(BTC or USD), all options would be available.  Of course more people use USD than BTC, but more people currently use crypto BTC than crypto USD, and nobody has a decentralized way to hedge BTC. 

This wallet would specifically target bitcoin users.  Its not the only bitshares wallet, and certainly not the primary bitshares wallet.  Its a bitcoin wallet that you can hedge in anyway you like, or if you're die hard bitcoin, you can at the very least capture 5% on your hodl.

the appeal is similar to inputs.io and coinlenders, if you remember them.  where you could earn close to 30% interest on your bitcoins if you locked them in a CD or less just by holding them in their wallet, only they were centralized and obviously vulnerable to attack as they lost everything.  This wallet would offer far more diverse hedging options in a decentralized user controlled way. 

There's already a large group of people who already use bitcoin, it would not be a hard sell.  You wouldn't have to explain anything.  If its popular, now you have a grass roots army of bitcoin(powered by bitshares) evangelists. 

Bottom line, if its not too difficult to make a simple lightweight client like this.  Why wouldn't you?  It seems to me, an easy way to leverage the existing bitcoin userbase.  And at the time when bitshares is accepted everywhere, this wallet would still work and you could use bitUSD or whatever you like for all your purchases etc. (advanced setting | 'Change Focus=>bitUSD' |)

I think you are over selling the desire for bitBTC by BTC holders.  They have a digital currency, they don't need a derivative of their digital currency.  BTC is basically the cash of the crypto-world.  Putting it into bitBTC doesn't strike me as a strong selling point.

I think we would start to muddy up the marketing message of such a site.  Perhaps as a later feature, but I still think the interaction between bitUSD and bts to be of a lot more value.  bitBTC is more for people who are already in the bitshares world and want it to hedge, not people who are in btc.
I speak for myself and only myself.

Xeldal

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Need an integrated wallet which uses only BitBTC along with BTC.

Hedging btc by using bitBTC and the 5% yield is not going to be particularly important when it swings that much daily it seems.  So what are your thoughts on  the value here ?

Its a stealth attack. We want to put it into the heads that BitBTC is interchangeable with BTC, and with the advantages it provides (speed, yield, anonymity) might capture a part of the BTC use.

BTS came in a direct competitor, made the Bitcoin community angry and defensive. BitUSD aims for a slightly different userbase, and also has a higher barrier to entry as a lot of infrastructure is needed in place. BitBTC, on the other hand can be marketed as something which makes using BTC easier, and the target would be a community who are not that finicky about user experience and would be willing to meet half way.

The value proposition for bitUSD seems far greater than the value proposition for bitBTC.  bitBTC is more like a toy people can hedge with to be frank. 

I do agree about needing to making bridges with BTC.  I used Proof of Waste in some of the original wiki writings. I removed it because it was too divisive at the time.  (IIRC)  I am not sure it is a good idea to use it all the time either.  How I expect people to respond is not how most people are.  They just push back psychologically.  So..  we definitely need to not draw a line between the 2 projects.

It doesn't matter which is the greater value proposition(BTC or USD), all options would be available.  Of course more people use USD than BTC, but more people currently use crypto BTC than crypto USD, and nobody has a decentralized way to hedge BTC. 

This wallet would specifically target bitcoin users.  Its not the only bitshares wallet, and certainly not the primary bitshares wallet.  Its a bitcoin wallet that you can hedge in anyway you like, or if you're die hard bitcoin, you can at the very least capture 5% on your hodl.

the appeal is similar to inputs.io and coinlenders, if you remember them.  where you could earn close to 30% interest on your bitcoins if you locked them in a CD or less just by holding them in their wallet, only they were centralized and obviously vulnerable to attack as they lost everything.  This wallet would offer far more diverse hedging options in a decentralized user controlled way. 

There's already a large group of people who already use bitcoin, it would not be a hard sell.  You wouldn't have to explain anything.  If its popular, now you have a grass roots army of bitcoin(powered by bitshares) evangelists. 

Bottom line, if its not too difficult to make a simple lightweight client like this.  Why wouldn't you?  It seems to me, an easy way to leverage the existing bitcoin userbase.  And at the time when bitshares is accepted everywhere, this wallet would still work and you could use bitUSD or whatever you like for all your purchases etc. (advanced setting | 'Change Focus=>bitUSD' |)

sumantso

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Yet another thread where they backslap each other and feel great about their PoW https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=860194.0

No point confronting them and waiting them to change their viewpoint. Let NXT and others soften them up. We merely creep in through BitBTC and make them start using it. Just position it as a tech which makes using BTC easier. Arbitrage traders, for starters will find this useful to transfer BTC across exchanges quickly.

Btw, Vitalik seems to be leaning away from PoW. Good work, BM :D
« Last Edit: November 17, 2014, 03:38:29 pm by sumantso »

Offline gamey

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Need an integrated wallet which uses only BitBTC along with BTC.

Hedging btc by using bitBTC and the 5% yield is not going to be particularly important when it swings that much daily it seems.  So what are your thoughts on  the value here ?

Its a stealth attack. We want to put it into the heads that BitBTC is interchangeable with BTC, and with the advantages it provides (speed, yield, anonymity) might capture a part of the BTC use.

BTS came in a direct competitor, made the Bitcoin community angry and defensive. BitUSD aims for a slightly different userbase, and also has a higher barrier to entry as a lot of infrastructure is needed in place. BitBTC, on the other hand can be marketed as something which makes using BTC easier, and the target would be a community who are not that finicky about user experience and would be willing to meet half way.

The value proposition for bitUSD seems far greater than the value proposition for bitBTC.  bitBTC is more like a toy people can hedge with to be frank. 

I do agree about needing to making bridges with BTC.  I used Proof of Waste in some of the original wiki writings. I removed it because it was too divisive at the time.  (IIRC)  I am not sure it is a good idea to use it all the time either.  How I expect people to respond is not how most people are.  They just push back psychologically.  So..  we definitely need to not draw a line between the 2 projects.
I speak for myself and only myself.

sumantso

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Need an integrated wallet which uses only BitBTC along with BTC.

Hedging btc by using bitBTC and the 5% yield is not going to be particularly important when it swings that much daily it seems.  So what are your thoughts on  the value here ?

Its a stealth attack. We want to put it into the heads that BitBTC is interchangeable with BTC, and with the advantages it provides (speed, yield, anonymity) might capture a part of the BTC use.

BTS came in a direct competitor, made the Bitcoin community angry and defensive. BitUSD aims for a slightly different userbase, and also has a higher barrier to entry as a lot of infrastructure is needed in place. BitBTC, on the other hand can be marketed as something which makes using BTC easier, and the target would be a community who are not that finicky about user experience and would be willing to meet half way.

Offline gamey

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Need an integrated wallet which uses only BitBTC along with BTC.

Hedging btc by using bitBTC and the 5% yield is not going to be particularly important when it swings that much daily it seems.  So what are your thoughts on  the value here ?
I speak for myself and only myself.

sumantso

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Need an integrated wallet which uses only BitBTC along with BTC.

Offline hpenvy

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Yea, I was just thinking.  That is the nice thing about how using the qt-web or whatever it is.  We could release a wallet that basically just relies on a web based centralized type wallet for BTC.  There may even be centralized wallets that have APIs.  The problem is the Bitshares brand would be very tied into the security and rep of such a centralized system.  Otherwise such a solution is probably relatively easy to do (if there are bitcoin wallet sites with APIs).  THat still doesn't take care of the part where you move bitshares back and forth from BTC.  You need a real market or some peg.  I suppose price feeds would work.  Use the same keys on both chains. It seems doable to me but I haven't really thought about it.

Toast is working on the BTS side of an API.  This discussion to me is about getting a combo BTC wallet with a decent user experience that had value etc. 

Toast's work might actually lead to a combo wallet that is strictly web-based.  Hmmm.  That is probably best anyway, because then official bitshares wallet is never tied into a centralized third party.

Yes!

- This idea was about creating an offshoot web wallet (similar to what we'll see with the high risk merchants)
- I would never recommend the official client have this function
« Last Edit: November 16, 2014, 11:37:10 pm by hpenvy »
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Offline gamey

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Yea, I was just thinking.  That is the nice thing about how using the qt-web or whatever it is.  We could release a wallet that basically just relies on a web based centralized type wallet for BTC.  There may even be centralized wallets that have APIs.  The problem is the Bitshares brand would be very tied into the security and rep of such a centralized system.  Otherwise such a solution is probably relatively easy to do (if there are bitcoin wallet sites with APIs).  THat still doesn't take care of the part where you move bitshares back and forth from BTC.  You need a real market or some peg.  I suppose price feeds would work.  Use the same keys on both chains. It seems doable to me but I haven't really thought about it.

Toast is working on the BTS side of an API.  This discussion to me is about getting a combo BTC wallet with a decent user experience that had value etc. 

Toast's work might actually lead to a combo wallet that is strictly web-based.  Hmmm.  That is probably best anyway, because then official bitshares wallet is never tied into a centralized third party.
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline hpenvy

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I was reviewing the last Mumble session. BM mentioned that Toast was working on Bitcoin API type code, might be interesting to see how it could tie into this idea. 
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btsx address: hpenvy
Tips appreciated for good work