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Offline alt


We badly need market maker bots in the bitUSD market providing liquidity.

Even if they operate at a loss for a while, the positive impact that it would have on bitshares is well worth it.

Just look at Nubits.  Everyone thinks nubits works great and is an amazing technology, simply because they are providing liquidity to the market.  Everyone thinks bitAssets barely work at all, and Nubits is way better, because we dont provide any liquidity.


If there was actual liquidity in the market, then people could use it, they could actually create shorts, and so on.

This is why we are working on relative bid/ask orders to help aid the creation of liquidity.

 +5% +5% +5%

thanks you are reminding this to us when ever you can!
With this implementation we will be all market makers  :)

PS An estimation when this future gets implemented on the client ? I can't wait !  :)
please don't do huge market-maker at wallet market!
请千万不要鼓励内盘搞做市商!
内盘做市如果规模大了会死的很惨,因为内盘现在根本就没有定价权,价格是完全由外部控制的。
比如有2000万BTS买盘在做市
在0.02美元价格时,我可以在内盘卖掉2000万,然后在外盘拿500万BTS砸到 0.015。
然后0.015价格我又能在内盘买回这2000万BTS,在外盘买500万拉到0.02美元。
这样反复抽水,内盘做市商就被当韭菜割了。

translator from google
Quote
please don't do huge market-maker at wallet market!

Please don't  encourage  market maker at wallet market!

Within  large volume,  market-maker will die very miserably, because the price is now totally control by external market.

For example, there are 20000000 BTS bid order from  the market-maker

at price $0.02 , I can sell 20,000,000 in the wallet market , and then sell at btc38 with 5,000,000 BTS , price fall down to  0.015.

Then the 0.015 price I can buy  20,000,000 BTS in the wallet market , buy 5,000,000 at btc38 ,price back to  $0.02.

This repeatedly pumping, the market-maker lose
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 03:46:05 AM by alt »

Offline alt

Re: feed price relative bid/ask order will hurt us
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2014, 02:00:20 AM »
before we support this new feature, we should change the price feed logic.
It should include volume from wallet market, and the  feed price should  relative to volume.

Offline Agent86

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Re: feed price relative bid/ask order will hurt us
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2014, 02:21:46 AM »
before we support this new feature, we should change the price feed logic.
It should include volume from wallet market, and the  feed price should  relative to volume.
I'm not sure if you are misinterpreting the feature.  It should allow people to place orders with a floor price but also with the additional stipulation that it tracks the feed price +/- a fixed offset.

I don't think there is a current suggestion to make the blockchain into a market maker or source of liquidity.  This feature just gives people more control over placing their orders.  I am also not in favor of a blockchain controlled market maker.

I am also hoping that it will be added to do short orders that can be a fixed offset from feed (only above the feed price).

I think we should also reconsider the policy that margin calls can't force buys above the feed price.

Offline alt

Re: feed price relative bid/ask order will hurt us
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2014, 02:51:27 AM »
before we support this new feature, we should change the price feed logic.
It should include volume from wallet market, and the  feed price should  relative to volume.
I'm not sure if you are misinterpreting the feature.  It should allow people to place orders with a floor price but also with the additional stipulation that it tracks the feed price +/- a fixed offset.

I don't think there is a current suggestion to make the blockchain into a market maker or source of liquidity.  This feature just gives people more control over placing their orders.  I am also not in favor of a blockchain controlled market maker.

I am also hoping that it will be added to do short orders that can be a fixed offset from feed (only above the feed price).

I think we should also reconsider the policy that margin calls can't force buys above the feed price.
thanks, I actually have misinterpreting the feature
So I think this feature is good, but still need to be very careful when we use this function.
the problem is feed price logic, now feed price just be controlled by outside.
if wallet market volume is too much, it will attract people to attack it through outside price control.
So I think the price feed should  include inside market and calculate with  volume,  right?

Offline alt

Re: feed price relative bid/ask order will hurt us
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2014, 03:03:23 AM »
actually this kind of attack can be executed now, for example:
now the price is 0.015 USD,
there are about 10,000,000 BTS ask order at price 0.016 USD
there are about 10,000,000 BTS short order with price limit at 0.02USD(much short order without limit in fact)

currently these order can't match, because bid price is 0.015.
but I think about  3,000,000 BTS buy at btc38 will control  price  up to 0.018,
So I buy 10,000,000 BTS at inside market with price 0.016 USD first
then control price to 0.018, or to 0.02
sell 10,000,000 BTS to the short at price 0.018 or 0.02.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 03:05:01 AM by alt »

Offline Mysto

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Re: feed price relative bid/ask order will hurt us
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2014, 03:07:23 AM »
before we support this new feature, we should change the price feed logic.
It should include volume from wallet market, and the  feed price should  relative to volume.
I'm not sure if you are misinterpreting the feature.  It should allow people to place orders with a floor price but also with the additional stipulation that it tracks the feed price +/- a fixed offset.

I don't think there is a current suggestion to make the blockchain into a market maker or source of liquidity.  This feature just gives people more control over placing their orders.  I am also not in favor of a blockchain controlled market maker.

I am also hoping that it will be added to do short orders that can be a fixed offset from feed (only above the feed price).

I think we should also reconsider the policy that margin calls can't force buys above the feed price.
thanks, I actually have misinterpreting the feature
So I think this feature is good, but still need to be very careful when we use this function.
the problem is feed price logic, now feed price just be controlled by outside.
if wallet market volume is too much, it will attract people to attack it through outside price control.
So I think the price feed should  include inside market and calculate with  volume,  right?
The point of this is to make the internal market more accurate because of the low volume. Once volume is higher the market will be more accurate.
I think the day we have high volume on the internal market and on/off ramps come on line then I'm assuming this feature will no longer be needed and it will be removed.

Offline emski

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Re: feed price relative bid/ask order will hurt us
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2014, 07:42:25 AM »
before we support this new feature, we should change the price feed logic.
It should include volume from wallet market, and the  feed price should  relative to volume.

I've included the volume in my price feed mod. See it here: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=9698.0. It is based on xeroc's version of your script.
No single exchange can manipulate the price with low volume.
And delegates are free to set trust_level for each exchange which is essentially a weight of that exchange's feed.

Offline monsterer

Re: feed price relative bid/ask order will hurt us
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2014, 10:07:43 AM »
And delegates are free to set trust_level for each exchange which is essentially a weight of that exchange's feed.

Wont that mean each delegate could have a totally different feed price?
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Offline Markus

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Re: feed price relative bid/ask order will hurt us
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2014, 10:11:47 AM »
And delegates are free to set trust_level for each exchange which is essentially a weight of that exchange's feed.

Wont that mean each delegate could have a totally different feed price?
That's essentially a good thing. There is no one true price.

Offline emski

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Re: feed price relative bid/ask order will hurt us
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2014, 10:18:03 AM »
And delegates are free to set trust_level for each exchange which is essentially a weight of that exchange's feed.

Wont that mean each delegate could have a totally different feed price?

Yes.
And that is a good thing.

Offline monsterer

Re: feed price relative bid/ask order will hurt us
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2014, 10:40:57 AM »
Yes.
And that is a good thing.

Doesn't that mean that the price feed will change abruptly every block?
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Offline Frodo

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Re: feed price relative bid/ask order will hurt us
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2014, 10:51:53 AM »
Yes.
And that is a good thing.

Doesn't that mean that the price feed will change abruptly every block?

No, I think the actually used price feed is the median of all published ones.

zerosum

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Re: should feed price calculate include inside market and with volume?
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2014, 10:54:49 AM »
Actually emski and Markus are wrong.

Well, I do not actually know if they are wrong, but there are smartasses that say that we cannot continue like that! And we must set a bar for the quality of the price feeds. If the price feed is below the said price feed standard (read price) it will no longer be valid (cause they said so!)

The argument goes something like this -"Do you know what will happen if the quality of price feeds go below 90% quality? They will gradually continue to decline until the reach 0, quality...", "Nobody will trust the feeds and they will eventually reach zero".

That's why we will set the standard... and no more crazy non-standard feeds will be allowed.

And it will be awesome after that! <hearts><hearts> many <hearts>


PS
And Dude, if you do not trust the quality feed theory you should go start your own blockchain, experimenting with such unsafe propositions... we are quality feed believers here (well we became such recently, but now in quality feeds we trust!)!

« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 11:08:18 AM by tonyk2 »

Offline Frodo

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Re: feed price relative bid/ask order will hurt us
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2014, 11:16:48 AM »
before we support this new feature, we should change the price feed logic.
It should include volume from wallet market, and the  feed price should  relative to volume.
I'm not sure if you are misinterpreting the feature.  It should allow people to place orders with a floor price but also with the additional stipulation that it tracks the feed price +/- a fixed offset.

I don't think there is a current suggestion to make the blockchain into a market maker or source of liquidity.  This feature just gives people more control over placing their orders.  I am also not in favor of a blockchain controlled market maker.

I am also hoping that it will be added to do short orders that can be a fixed offset from feed (only above the feed price).

I think we should also reconsider the policy that margin calls can't force buys above the feed price.
thanks, I actually have misinterpreting the feature
So I think this feature is good, but still need to be very careful when we use this function.
the problem is feed price logic, now feed price just be controlled by outside.
if wallet market volume is too much, it will attract people to attack it through outside price control.
So I think the price feed should  include inside market and calculate with  volume,  right?
The point of this is to make the internal market more accurate because of the low volume. Once volume is higher the market will be more accurate.
I think the day we have high volume on the internal market and on/off ramps come on line then I'm assuming this feature will no longer be needed and it will be removed.

I can see another advantage of alt's proposal: When we remove the price feed there will probably happen some panic selling of bitAssets. This in conjunction with actually no rules on shorting price might absolutely crush confidence and therefore bitAsset markets. If we weight in the internal price into pricefeeds we get a very smooth transition from external feeds to effectively no feeds. I would really like that.

Offline monsterer

Re: feed price relative bid/ask order will hurt us
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2014, 11:27:12 AM »
No, I think the actually used price feed is the median of all published ones.

Are you sure its not a median of all current feeds to the current delegate?
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