Is everyone against merger and inflating for stuff out of BTS yet?

[Empirical1.1]

We have not done that. 
BitShares is not a currency, it is a company. 
Its products (BitUSD, BitCNY, BitGLD, etc.) are currencies.

could you explain please , why this "currencies" so special to use over BTC?

First generation crypto currencies are subject to large fluctuations in price that makes them less suitable for use as a store of value.  BitShares BTS it also subject to such fluctuations.  So we don't use it as a currency.  We use it as collateral to back a stable currency pegged to other assets like USD, CNY, EUR, gold and silver.

This next-generation currency, produced as a derivative of the underlying asset, is much more stable and therefore suitable for use as a currency.

In the process we improved everything else about bitcoin.  Confirmed transactions are possible in ten seconds vs. the hour it can take to get a fully confirmed Bitcoin transaction.

In addition, the BitShares currencies (BitUSD, et. al.) pay a yield - similar to variable interest to all who hold them.

BitShares completely revolutionizes the crypto currency industry.

This is not just an incremental improvement or a better meme.
It is the same scale of performance improvement as between a horse and an automobile.

EDIT:  In terms of speed, it is more like the leap from a horse to a jet aircraft. 

As an analogy, BTS like real world gold while bitusd, bitcny etc. as real world currencies.  So this whole mechanism behind BTS is an evolution digitally of the old-fashioned monetary system, which as BM put it as BANKING.

No BTSX was like a real world gold, BTS is like a share in a competitive company that shareholders change based on what they think is best. Bytemaster has said if you want something like a gold, buy BitGold. I think some people will prefer something more like a real world gold backing BitAssets a bit more.

Well, reading ur reply I suddenly realise that BTSX is actually gold as it is has a fixed amount. So I agree with you BTS is not suited to this analogy anymore...Unless we can see BTS as digital gold anyway because real world gold quantity is increasing somehow though in a very very slow pace. This is not the serious point anyway.

Thanks toast for enlightening me, it's just the way I understand it. I would prefer a thing has collateral nature as analog of gold, which bitgold not have?

Yes I think many would prefer a thing has collateral nature as analog to gold.
Unfortunately BTS can't be seen as that, as even though it is increasing at a slow pace it may be changed for a merger with another company or for other reasons. BTS is still good collateral because it is very transparent & there is a lot of BTS backing the BitAssets, so it is still very safe. People will think of it differently to BTSX though in my opinion.

[merlin0113]

We have not done that. 
BitShares is not a currency, it is a company. 
Its products (BitUSD, BitCNY, BitGLD, etc.) are currencies.

could you explain please , why this "currencies" so special to use over BTC?

First generation crypto currencies are subject to large fluctuations in price that makes them less suitable for use as a store of value.  BitShares BTS it also subject to such fluctuations.  So we don't use it as a currency.  We use it as collateral to back a stable currency pegged to other assets like USD, CNY, EUR, gold and silver.

This next-generation currency, produced as a derivative of the underlying asset, is much more stable and therefore suitable for use as a currency.

In the process we improved everything else about bitcoin.  Confirmed transactions are possible in ten seconds vs. the hour it can take to get a fully confirmed Bitcoin transaction.

In addition, the BitShares currencies (BitUSD, et. al.) pay a yield - similar to variable interest to all who hold them.

BitShares completely revolutionizes the crypto currency industry.

This is not just an incremental improvement or a better meme.
It is the same scale of performance improvement as between a horse and an automobile.

EDIT:  In terms of speed, it is more like the leap from a horse to a jet aircraft. 

As an analogy, BTS like real world gold while bitusd, bitcny etc. as real world currencies.  So this whole mechanism behind BTS is an evolution digitally of the old-fashioned monetary system, which as BM put it as BANKING.

No BTSX was like a real world gold, BTS is like a share in a competitive company that shareholders change based on what they think is best. Bytemaster has said if you want something like a gold, buy BitGold. I think some people will prefer something more like a real world gold backing BitAssets a bit more.

Well, reading ur reply I suddenly realise that BTSX is actually gold as it is has a fixed amount. So I agree with you BTS is not suited to this analogy anymore...Unless we can see BTS as digital gold anyway because real world gold quantity is increasing somehow though in a very very slow pace. This is not the serious point anyway.

Thanks toast for enlightening me, it's just the way I understand it. I would prefer a thing has collateral nature as analog of gold, which bitgold not have?

[Empirical1.1]

We have not done that. 
BitShares is not a currency, it is a company. 
Its products (BitUSD, BitCNY, BitGLD, etc.) are currencies.

could you explain please , why this "currencies" so special to use over BTC?

First generation crypto currencies are subject to large fluctuations in price that makes them less suitable for use as a store of value.  BitShares BTS it also subject to such fluctuations.  So we don't use it as a currency.  We use it as collateral to back a stable currency pegged to other assets like USD, CNY, EUR, gold and silver.

This next-generation currency, produced as a derivative of the underlying asset, is much more stable and therefore suitable for use as a currency.

In the process we improved everything else about bitcoin.  Confirmed transactions are possible in ten seconds vs. the hour it can take to get a fully confirmed Bitcoin transaction.

In addition, the BitShares currencies (BitUSD, et. al.) pay a yield - similar to variable interest to all who hold them.

BitShares completely revolutionizes the crypto currency industry.

This is not just an incremental improvement or a better meme.
It is the same scale of performance improvement as between a horse and an automobile.

EDIT:  In terms of speed, it is more like the leap from a horse to a jet aircraft. 

As an analogy, BTS like real world gold while bitusd, bitcny etc. as real world currencies.  So this whole mechanism behind BTS is an evolution digitally of the old-fashioned monetary system, which as BM put it as BANKING.

No BTSX was like a real world gold, BTS is like a share in a competitive company that shareholders change based on what they think is best. Bytemaster has said if you want something like a gold, buy BitGold. I think some people will prefer something more like a real world gold backing BitAssets a bit more.

[merlin0113]

We have not done that. 
BitShares is not a currency, it is a company. 
Its products (BitUSD, BitCNY, BitGLD, etc.) are currencies.

could you explain please , why this "currencies" so special to use over BTC?

First generation crypto currencies are subject to large fluctuations in price that makes them less suitable for use as a store of value.  BitShares BTS it also subject to such fluctuations.  So we don't use it as a currency.  We use it as collateral to back a stable currency pegged to other assets like USD, CNY, EUR, gold and silver.

This next-generation currency, produced as a derivative of the underlying asset, is much more stable and therefore suitable for use as a currency.

In the process we improved everything else about bitcoin.  Confirmed transactions are possible in ten seconds vs. the hour it can take to get a fully confirmed Bitcoin transaction.

In addition, the BitShares currencies (BitUSD, et. al.) pay a yield - similar to variable interest to all who hold them.

BitShares completely revolutionizes the crypto currency industry.

This is not just an incremental improvement or a better meme.
It is the same scale of performance improvement as between a horse and an automobile.

EDIT:  In terms of speed, it is more like the leap from a horse to a jet aircraft. 

As an analogy, BTS like real world gold while bitusd, bitcny etc. as real world currencies.  So this whole mechanism behind BTS is an evolution digitally of the old-fashioned monetary system, which as BM put it as BANKING.

[Crossover]

We have not done that. 
BitShares is not a currency, it is a company. 
Its products (BitUSD, BitCNY, BitGLD, etc.) are currencies.

could you explain please , why this "currencies" so special to use over BTC?

First generation crypto currencies are subject to large fluctuations in price that makes them less suitable for use as a store of value.  BitShares BTS it also subject to such fluctuations.  So we don't use it as a currency.  We use it as collateral to back a stable currency pegged to other assets like USD, CNY, EUR, gold and silver.

This next-generation currency, produced as a derivative of the underlying asset, is much more stable and therefore suitable for use as a currency.

In the process we improved everything else about bitcoin.  Confirmed transactions are possible in ten seconds vs. the hour it can take to get a fully confirmed Bitcoin transaction.

In addition, the BitShares currencies (BitUSD, et. al.) pay a yield - similar to variable interest to all who hold them.

BitShares completely revolutionizes the crypto currency industry.

This is not just an incremental improvement or a better meme.
It is the same scale of performance improvement as between a horse and an automobile.

EDIT:  In terms of speed, it is more like the leap from a horse to a jet aircraft. 

Thank you, let me explain how i see this now,
lets suppose im the investor of oil rig, i bought oil rig for 500 USD of my own and 500 i pulled from investors, the rig valued by the revenue flow over period of oil extraction devided to time discount,
 market value due higher inflation expectations rised to 2000 USD, my 1/2 share of company now valued at 1000 USD,
i decided to make Oilrig shares as digital money among rig personnel, but because of unstable price nature of shares i have to use reverse engineering derivative, digital tokens of common currencies, usd, gld.
When market value of rig rised to 3000 USD, investors created digital assets for the total amount of 2000 usd + 1 oz gold,
1 month later alien race bring new source of energy tech, oil prices fell down significantly more then 50%, market value of oilrig tumble to 1000 and still going down.
Share owners cant redeem their tokens, because value of deriv.assets 3000 > 1000, they are in trap, what to do in such scenario?

[arhag]

Is it me, or have you accidentally blown up the last few days of the region shown in my chart and mislabeled the dates?

I am pretty certain I have not mislabeled the dates. I am more or less using the same data and charting functionality from coinmarketcap. Remember, I am effectively plotting a normalized price of BTS and NXT both priced in BTC (not USD which your chart appears to be plotting). Feel free to look through the source code and see if you find any bugs though.

[monsterer]

They havent moved at the same times, the same amounts.  There are definite periods of outperformance on that chart, by one or the other. 

Where? Point out the major differences.

Look, I'll include this again to help you:

The market caps priced in USD appear to be masking much of the differences in price movements between BTS and NXT. Using my tool (http://jsfiddle.net/p4qvLwwp/4/) I was able to generate a plot of the change in prices of the two assets over the same time period:


You can clearly see that the BTS price was hurting more than NXT during the BTC bear market period from October 26 to November 2. But it seems to have returned back to normal relative to NXT from November 2 to November 10 during the BTC rebound. Then as BTC had its mini-bubble with a peak at November 13, both NXT and BTS went down, but again BTS went down faster than NXT, and what's worse is that it has continued to slide down despite the fact that the BTC price has somewhat stabilized in the short term and the NXT price is starting to reflect that stability.

You can of course have very different interpretations from this data, but it seems clear to me that BTS is hurting more and that it is likely because of some large BTS holders becoming upset with all the latest changes and trying to get out slowly. I think that view is incredibly irrational and that BTS is much better off in the long run because of the merge to BTS and delegate dilution pay. Though this sell off is unfortunate, we are better off having the stake move to stronger hands who actually understand the value of the new system. I just hope the people selling have nearly finished divesting their stake and we can soon go back to higher prices.

Is it me, or have you accidentally blown up the last few days of the region shown in my chart and mislabeled the dates?

[Ander]

Thanks arhag, on that version you can clearly see the large differences in performance.

[Stan]

We have not done that. 
BitShares is not a currency, it is a company. 
Its products (BitUSD, BitCNY, BitGLD, etc.) are currencies.

could you explain please , why this "currencies" so special to use over BTC?

First generation crypto currencies are subject to large fluctuations in price that makes them less suitable for use as a store of value.  BitShares BTS it also subject to such fluctuations.  So we don't use it as a currency.  We use it as collateral to back a stable currency pegged to other assets like USD, CNY, EUR, gold and silver.

This next-generation currency, produced as a derivative of the underlying asset, is much more stable and therefore suitable for use as a currency.

In the process we improved everything else about bitcoin.  Confirmed transactions are possible in ten seconds vs. the hour it can take to get a fully confirmed Bitcoin transaction.

In addition, the BitShares currencies (BitUSD, et. al.) pay a yield - similar to variable interest to all who hold them.

BitShares completely revolutionizes the crypto currency industry.

This is not just an incremental improvement or a better meme.
It is the same scale of performance improvement as between a horse and an automobile.

EDIT:  In terms of speed, it is more like the leap from a horse to a jet aircraft. 

[CLains]

"BTC dying" kills the altmarket, because it leads to a crypto depression. What happens when a system is in depression? In terms of the brain, neural activity is centralized around the ego, the self, and in terms of the body, blood and heat is transferred to the center of the body, leaving all extremities cold, environmentally one stops exploring and sits still in a corner, trying to conserve energy for better times. The giant squid BTC retracts blood from all the alt-tentacles into the core, leaving them cold and putting exploration on a halt.

[toast]

We have not done that. 
BitShares is not a currency, it is a company. 
Its products (BitUSD, BitCNY, BitGLD, etc.) are currencies.

could you explain please , why this "currencies" so special to use over BTC?

Price stability, interest, 10s transaction times.

USD, CNY, GLD have the same stability over BTC, thats all?

No, I listed two other things:  Getting paid interest and 60 times faster transactions

[arhag]

They havent moved at the same times, the same amounts.  There are definite periods of outperformance on that chart, by one or the other. 

Where? Point out the major differences.

Look, I'll include this again to help you:

The market caps priced in USD appear to be masking much of the differences in price movements between BTS and NXT. Using my tool (http://jsfiddle.net/p4qvLwwp/4/) I was able to generate a plot of the change in prices of the two assets over the same time period:


You can clearly see that the BTS price was hurting more than NXT during the BTC bear market period from October 26 to November 2. But it seems to have returned back to normal relative to NXT from November 2 to November 10 during the BTC rebound. Then as BTC had its mini-bubble with a peak at November 13, both NXT and BTS went down, but again BTS went down faster than NXT, and what's worse is that it has continued to slide down despite the fact that the BTC price has somewhat stabilized in the short term and the NXT price is starting to reflect that stability.

You can of course have very different interpretations from this data, but it seems clear to me that BTS is hurting more and that it is likely because of some large BTS holders becoming upset with all the latest changes and trying to get out slowly. I think that view is incredibly irrational and that BTS is much better off in the long run because of the merge to BTS and delegate dilution pay. Though this sell off is unfortunate, we are better off having the stake move to stronger hands who actually understand the value of the new system. I just hope the people selling have nearly finished divesting their stake and we can soon go back to higher prices.

[toast]

We have not done that. 
BitShares is not a currency, it is a company. 
Its products (BitUSD, BitCNY, BitGLD, etc.) are currencies.

could you explain please , why this "currencies" so special to use over BTC?

Price stability, interest, 10s transaction times.

[Crossover]

We have not done that. 
BitShares is not a currency, it is a company. 
Its products (BitUSD, BitCNY, BitGLD, etc.) are currencies.

could you explain please , why this "currencies" so special to use over BTC?

[monsterer]

They havent moved at the same times, the same amounts.  There are definite periods of outperformance on that chart, by one or the other. 

Where? Point out the major differences.

Look, I'll include this again to help you:

[bytemaster]

Personally, I think you're really grasping at straws saying NXT moves the same way as BTS because they had bad news as well. At the same time? By the same amounts? Really?

They havent moved at the same times, the same amounts.  There are definite periods of outperformance on that chart, by one or the other.  Yes, the net result over time was kindof similar, but actually not all that much because BTS is now FAR below NXT.  BTS is 4000 sat and NXT is 5000, thats 25% higher than us.
BTS has pretty much been getting crushed by every single major crypto out there except for one or two.

The main reason is because the whole merger and dilution change was completely bungled from a PR perspective.

Please don't compare price without considering supply. 

[Ander]

Personally, I think you're really grasping at straws saying NXT moves the same way as BTS because they had bad news as well. At the same time? By the same amounts? Really?

They havent moved at the same times, the same amounts.  There are definite periods of outperformance on that chart, by one or the other.  Yes, the net result over time was kindof similar, but actually not all that much because BTS is now FAR below NXT.  BTS is 4000 sat and NXT is 5000, thats 25% higher than us.
BTS has pretty much been getting crushed by every single major crypto out there except for one or two.

The main reason is because the whole merger and dilution change was completely bungled from a PR perspective.

[gamey]

That was back in May, and I'm sorry to say that in terms of global recognition Bitshares is still the little brother in the 2.0 space, despite our product being live and functioning and our market cap being bigger than all the others bar Ripple. Even Mastercoin that's been behind terrible stuff like the Maidsafe IPO somehow gets more recognition and press space than Bitshares.

Adam was making valid points about the lack of marketing and the difficulty in getting people to understand our product, and provided a critical voice. I see he hasn't posted for over a month now, and I for one am sorry to see him go. He could've been a valuable partner but instead we scared him away..

#1 That was not the post, but I should have reread exactly what he said and not vaguely referenced things.  I just hate to see the poor Adam references which is exactly how he wants people to see it.

#2 That same point he is bringing up is the same point many many people have made.  You make it sound like he was some voice of reason in a sea of dissent.  Pretty much everyone in the 'tribe'  has agreed with it.  Yes Adam has/had many valid criticisms, but the valid ones are usually just echoed by community members.  The invalid ones?  Not so much.

And Xeroc - I agree about not bringing up ABL.  I was hesistant to do it, but could not resist.  I'd be fine never reading anything about ABL on here and thats nothing personal.  He sure as hell doesn't  like reading my posts.

[ebit]

 

[Stan]

This is how I personally see it... Bitshares is being hypocritical when it now switches from a deflationary cryptocurrency to an inflationary one. Sure, the inflation has been implemented for the "greater good", but it is hard to justify that for me. For months (almost a year) Bitshares has been marketing itself on the point that Bitcoin is diluting its shareholders, and that Bitshares looks at cryptocurrency differently in that it makes a profit for its shareholders by burning fees & being deflationary. I personally was sold on that point and it makes a lot of sense to me. Now, even though the dilution is more controlled (you can only dilute for developers, marketers, etc), it is still dilution and something I.. as a very small shareholder..  have no control over.

Thank you for bringing these up.  If these issues still bug a long time member like you, then they probably still bug others.  So I'll drop in a quick response to your main points:

Scattered deep among the prodigious piles of postings from the past month lie the key answers to your question about whether we are being hypocritical about "switching from a deflationary crypto-currency to an inflationary one"...

We have not done that. 
BitShares is not a currency, it is a company. 
Its products (BitUSD, BitCNY, BitGLD, etc.) are currencies.

These products are pegged to other assets that may be inflationary or deflationary.
Take your pick.
Mix your own basket.
You control the level of inflation or deflation.
"Dial-a-yield" is what we offer.
It's not cold fusion.  It's not warp drive.
But it's the value proposition investors should be considering.
It is the flux capacitor of finance.

And that is the reason you should want to invest in BitShares.

Nothing about issuing more "receipts" to recognize new value infusions affects our currencies.
This is the way most companies recognize the contributions of ongoing contributors.
This is consistent with our Prime Directive:
Develop a profitable, rapidly appreciating, useful company.

Dilution of a few percent is negligible
for a company aiming to appreciate by a few hundreds of percent per year.

Lost in the noise.
A mere rounding error.
Yet it is a huge competitive edge
that other crypto-enterprises have yet to discover.
And you are here with us on the ground floor!

Small shareholders in BitShares
are like small shareholders in traditional companies.
They benefit from riding on the resources of big investors
and the vision of big thinkers,
and from being a part of where those people are leading.
If anyone doesn't agree, they always have the option to sell
and find a horse to ride that they like better.
In that sense, the small investor has total control.

So, you see, how people look at things
(favorably or unfavorably)
often depends upon the metaphors they are using.
Creating a company that uses its dilution to fund growth
Is far better than a company that burns much more dilution in the fiery furnaces of Mordor.

That's the comparison we have been making.
And that remains faithful to the principles on which we are founded.

Semper Fi.

 

[santaclause102]

I'm not saying ABL is the greatest thing since sliced bread nor denying that some of his postings were rather tactless, I'm just saying we should try to keep the critical voices around and meet them with reason and maybe try to learn from what they're saying.

Scaring people away doesn't make us look good, Hoskinson is another example of this..

[svk]

I'm not saying ABL is the greatest thing since sliced bread nor denying that some of his postings were rather tactless, I'm just saying we should try to keep the critical voices around and meet them with reason and maybe try to learn from what they're saying.

Scaring people away doesn't make us look good, Hoskinson is another example of this..

[xeroc]

can we just stop talking about ABL once and for all?

[oco101]

@svk

Come one man...you should have read quite a few other posts from the adored by all of us ABL, since May 16th...


Any of those ring any bells:

-I3 has 40% of BTS?
-I3 is donating money to themselves (instead to ABL).
-All US agencies  are coming after I3, about now. Why ABL? - Cause I said so.

Yep that kind of fud I was talking. Good examples tonyk !!!


@svk I agree this one is a good one by ABL but unfortunately most of them are not like that

I apologize for the grave-digging but here's the conversation you must be referring to:

I am the most controversial member of this forum (if you say so) because this forum is very hostile to users who do not think you know absolutely what you're doing.  Look through old posts, you'll find them and note that they all left.   Most people pick a project, maybe two and stick with it.  I pick all the projects, invest in them all and try to help them all when they are doing the wrong thing.  Look at NXT or Counterparty's forums and you'll see the same thing.  I don't currently comment on Ethereum because they're doing just fine. 

I'm sorry I don't think you're doing a great job with Invictus, I really really don't.  This project is by far in last place when compared against the serious players in the space and impugning my motives just further pushes away one of your biggest supporters.

That was back in May, and I'm sorry to say that in terms of global recognition Bitshares is still the little brother in the 2.0 space, despite our product being live and functioning and our market cap being bigger than all the others bar Ripple. Even Mastercoin that's been behind terrible stuff like the Maidsafe IPO somehow gets more recognition and press space than Bitshares.

Adam was making valid points about the lack of marketing and the difficulty in getting people to understand our product, and provided a critical voice. I see he hasn't posted for over a month now, and I for one am sorry to see him go. He could've been a valuable partner but instead we scared him away..

[oco101]

@gamey I'm not sure you'll appreciate any of this but I think our community's reaction to both Adam B. Levine and alphaBar are examples of a tribal, cheerleading mentality that doesn't reflect well on us.

ABL once ridiculed our community for not being aware of how far behind we are.  Since then we've launched and killed a chain that had a market cap greater than the large majority of crypto 2.0 projects.

Alphabar is a completely different situation than ABL.  I have mixed feelings on Alphabar.  I would not have been so harsh on him if not for our previous arguments, but I do feel that his requests were genuine.

A lot of the time you get out of the forum what you put in.  I can pick apart these exchanges and will admit some level of culpability, but I don't think these are very good examples.  I don't feel we're any more tribal than elsewhere.  We're usually pretty open to legitimate criticism, but perhaps I am wrong.  I like BTC and other altcoins
even if I am reminded how sucky the confirmation times are whenever I am forced to use it.  A lot of BTC people just despise anything that isn't on *the* official blockchain.  but anyway I digress...

The problem with alphabar and ABL is how they say things. And usually they mixed a bit of fud here and there just to make I spicy, I agree they are good at starting big inflammatory discussions but I disagree with this approach. Just an example when all the rage was going on the forum about the merger. alphabar chose to make a  tread called  "The NEW Bitshares PTS - superDAC slayer!". Now imagine that tread without the "superDAC slayer" part. Guarantee, everybody would have look it up differently it. Turns out he just wanted to create basically an altcoin witch I think is a good idea by the way...and he chose the perfect timing too people  where pissed of with the distribution and merger. I would have waited a week or so before the announcement.
Same goes for ABL it does not feel they want to do constructive criticism they shoot first and ask later.
Both have good point but are especially good when they are proposing a viable solution, or at least don't mix fud ..
Look at CoinHorder post in this tread that is a perfect example of constructive criticism. And I agree with every point is making in . Is not that difficult really..

[Strip]

I was against it and sell all that I have. Now I try to recover my positions. My main objection was that Bitsheres is centralized and one man can do whatever he wants, but now I see that paid delegates can solve that problem in the long run.

Plus, there is always be funding of development. This feature alone makes Bitsheres much more competitive then others.

[zerosum]

@svk

Come one man...you should have read quite a few other posts from the adored by all of us ABL, since May 16th...


Any of those ring any bells:

-I3 has 40% of BTS?
-I3 is donating money to themselves (instead to ABL).
-All US agencies  are coming after I3, about now. Why ABL? - Cause I said so.

[svk]

@gamey I'm not sure you'll appreciate any of this but I think our community's reaction to both Adam B. Levine and alphaBar are examples of a tribal, cheerleading mentality that doesn't reflect well on us.

ABL once ridiculed our community for not being aware of how far behind we are.  Since then we've launched and killed a chain that had a market cap greater than the large majority of crypto 2.0 projects.

Alphabar is a completely different situation than ABL.  I have mixed feelings on Alphabar.  I would not have been so harsh on him if not for our previous arguments, but I do feel that his requests were genuine.

A lot of the time you get out of the forum what you put in.  I can pick apart these exchanges and will admit some level of culpability, but I don't think these are very good examples.  I don't feel we're any more tribal than elsewhere.  We're usually pretty open to legitimate criticism, but perhaps I am wrong.  I like BTC and other altcoins
even if I am reminded how sucky the confirmation times are whenever I am forced to use it.  A lot of BTC people just despise anything that isn't on *the* official blockchain.  but anyway I digress...

I apologize for the grave-digging but here's the conversation you must be referring to:

I am the most controversial member of this forum (if you say so) because this forum is very hostile to users who do not think you know absolutely what you're doing.  Look through old posts, you'll find them and note that they all left.   Most people pick a project, maybe two and stick with it.  I pick all the projects, invest in them all and try to help them all when they are doing the wrong thing.  Look at NXT or Counterparty's forums and you'll see the same thing.  I don't currently comment on Ethereum because they're doing just fine. 

I'm sorry I don't think you're doing a great job with Invictus, I really really don't.  This project is by far in last place when compared against the serious players in the space and impugning my motives just further pushes away one of your biggest supporters.

That was back in May, and I'm sorry to say that in terms of global recognition Bitshares is still the little brother in the 2.0 space, despite our product being live and functioning and our market cap being bigger than all the others bar Ripple. Even Mastercoin that's been behind terrible stuff like the Maidsafe IPO somehow gets more recognition and press space than Bitshares.

Adam was making valid points about the lack of marketing and the difficulty in getting people to understand our product, and provided a critical voice. I see he hasn't posted for over a month now, and I for one am sorry to see him go. He could've been a valuable partner but instead we scared him away..

[gamey]

@gamey I'm not sure you'll appreciate any of this but I think our community's reaction to both Adam B. Levine and alphaBar are examples of a tribal, cheerleading mentality that doesn't reflect well on us.

ABL once ridiculed our community for not being aware of how far behind we are.  Since then we've launched and killed a chain that had a market cap greater than the large majority of crypto 2.0 projects.

Alphabar is a completely different situation than ABL.  I have mixed feelings on Alphabar.  I would not have been so harsh on him if not for our previous arguments, but I do feel that his requests were genuine.

A lot of the time you get out of the forum what you put in.  I can pick apart these exchanges and will admit some level of culpability, but I don't think these are very good examples.  I don't feel we're any more tribal than elsewhere.  We're usually pretty open to legitimate criticism, but perhaps I am wrong.  I like BTC and other altcoins
even if I am reminded how sucky the confirmation times are whenever I am forced to use it.  A lot of BTC people just despise anything that isn't on *the* official blockchain.  but anyway I digress...

[monsterer]

I agree that the dominant factor was probably just the crypto bear market, not inflation.  But inflation did probably have some effect (there were definitely a couple periods where we dropped 10% more than other cryptos, right after dilution announcements and plan changes.

Also, while BTS performed similarly to NXT recently, both have performed weakly relative to the average altcoin during this period, and both actually had periods of terrible PR during this period.  NXT was plagued by horrible PR during the whole bluemeanie theft fiasco. 

Why don't you mark the dates on the graph where you noticed the price move due to bad news?

Personally, I think you're really grasping at straws saying NXT moves the same way as BTS because they had bad news as well. At the same time? By the same amounts? Really?

[svk]

This is how I personally see it... Bitshares is being hypocritical when it now switches from a deflationary cryptocurrency to an inflationary one. Sure, the inflation has been implemented for the "greater good", but it is hard to justify that for me. For months (almost a year) Bitshares has been marketing itself on the point that Bitcoin is diluting its shareholders, and that Bitshares looks at cryptocurrency differently in that it makes a profit for its shareholders by burning fees & being deflationary. I personally was sold on that point and it makes a lot of sense to me. Now, even though the dilution is more controlled (you can only dilute for developers, marketers, etc), it is still dilution and something I.. as a very small shareholder..  have no control over.

You can say the inflation will help with development, advertising, etcera, and for the record I do not think that is incorrect. The problem is Bitshares is trying to live hypocritically when it comes to its stance on dilution. It can be easily argued (just as easily as some have ITT) that Bitcoin dilution compared to its volume has little to no effect on its price in terms of selling all dilution on the market. If Bitshares were valued similarly.. it would be no different in reality.. it too would need hundreds of millions of dollars pouring in yearly to sustain its price.

This is part of the reason I dropped the idea of being a delegate. I feel like there's far too much group think that goes on in this community, and I gave up on pleasing the community to sideline my opinions. Instead of echoing each others ideas we should be preaching our own. Don't get me wrong, Bytemaster is a smart guy.. one of the smartest in crypto... but there is a reason corporations and governments have checks and balances. Also there is a reason why any decentralized crypto worth its weight should too. He has come up with many great ideas, and this very well could be another one of them, but I would just like everyone to think and come to that conclusion for themselves.

A couple controversial things have happened in recent history that I personally (I know I'm not alone) and others do not agree with. Those things have to do with dilution and altering the social contract. If Bitshares changes its philosophy on these biiiiig issues, then what else will it change its mind on? This is certainly part of the reason for the price swing downwards. It is not the downward pressure from people actually selling dilution awarded shares, but the negative connotation involved with the two major negative-speculative changes to Bitshares.

Whether you agree with this or not.. I do not care.. but it has had some affect on the price and public perception. Whereas I was 100% behind Bitshares before the changes, I am now personally more of a casual observer at this point. Then again.. I don't own very much Bitshares to begin with so whatever you guys decide is up to you. I agree the crypto market in a whole has been a bear market lately, but you can't discount recent events that could have contributed as well. There are several cryptocurrencies that have grown in value since then, and we as a community can only look at ourselves as to the success of the value of the Bitshares token. We are a product of our own success or failure... short of a total Bitcoin collapse... cryptocurrencies are not going anywhere anytime soon.

Trust me, I want good things for Bitshares shareholders.. I just cannot continue to sit back and bite my tongue on some issues. Think for yourselves people, as the saying goes.. more heads are better than one... echoing thoughts and opinions doesn't help anyone... specifically getting Bitshares to where it needs to be. An echo chamber is not what makes successful communities, companies, or currencies. Yes, I have been incredibly hard on Bitshares lately, but that is because I feel like hardly anyone else in this community is, and that is what is required to be successful.

 

I remember being quite surprised by the amount of cheerleading going on through the whole "Vote is gonna be great, now let's dump BTSX" crisis. That particular crisis came at a bad time for me as I was travelling and didn't really have time to devote to the forum to try to add a critical voice, but I wish I had tried harder. I especially regret not standing up more in support of alphaBar who was actually raising a lot of valid points in a reasoned manner, but kept getting shot down and flamed.

While I have no ideological or almost religious attitude towards inflation the way a lot of people appear to have, I too was attracted by the idea of a DAC burning fees and rewarding stakeholders by deflation. I was also attracted by the idea of having multiple DACs complementing and/or competing with each other, and I'm still a little bitter about the U-turn the community made on that concept.

@gamey I'm not sure you'll appreciate any of this but I think our community's reaction to both Adam B. Levine and alphaBar are examples of a tribal, cheerleading mentality that doesn't reflect well on us.

[gamey]

Coinhoarder, what are the biggest areas of group think?  I don't really see it too much but apparently you do, so I am curious about your perception of the community?

[CoinHoarder]

This is how I personally see it... Bitshares is being hypocritical when it now switches from a deflationary cryptocurrency to an inflationary one. Sure, the inflation has been implemented for the "greater good", but it is hard to justify that for me. For months (almost a year) Bitshares has been marketing itself on the point that Bitcoin is diluting its shareholders, and that Bitshares looks at cryptocurrency differently in that it makes a profit for its shareholders by burning fees & being deflationary. I personally was sold on that point and it makes a lot of sense to me. Now, even though the dilution is more controlled (you can only dilute for developers, marketers, etc), it is still dilution and something I.. as a very small shareholder..  have no control over.

You can say the inflation will help with development, advertising, etcera, and for the record I do not think that is incorrect. The problem is Bitshares is trying to live hypocritically when it comes to its stance on dilution. It can be easily argued (just as easily as some have ITT) that Bitcoin dilution compared to its volume has little to no effect on its price in terms of selling all dilution on the market. If Bitshares were valued similarly.. it would be no different in reality.. it too would need hundreds of millions of dollars pouring in yearly to sustain its price.

This is part of the reason I dropped the idea of being a delegate. I feel like there's far too much group think that goes on in this community, and I gave up on pleasing the community to sideline my opinions. Instead of echoing each others ideas we should be preaching our own. Don't get me wrong, Bytemaster is a smart guy.. one of the smartest in crypto... but there is a reason corporations and governments have checks and balances. Also there is a reason why any decentralized crypto worth its weight should too. He has come up with many great ideas, and this very well could be another one of them, but I would just like everyone to think and come to that conclusion for themselves.

A couple controversial things have happened in recent history that I personally (I know I'm not alone) and others do not agree with. Those things have to do with dilution and altering the social contract. If Bitshares changes its philosophy on these biiiiig issues, then what else will it change its mind on? This is certainly part of the reason for the price swing downwards. It is not the downward pressure from people actually selling dilution awarded shares, but the negative connotation involved with the two major negative-speculative changes to Bitshares.

Whether you agree with this or not.. I do not care.. but it has had some affect on the price and public perception. Whereas I was 100% behind Bitshares before the changes, I am now personally more of a casual observer at this point. Then again.. I don't own very much Bitshares to begin with so whatever you guys decide is up to you. I agree the crypto market in a whole has been a bear market lately, but you can't discount recent events that could have contributed as well. There are several cryptocurrencies that have grown in value since then, and we as a community can only look at ourselves as to the success of the value of the Bitshares token. We are a product of our own success or failure... short of a total Bitcoin collapse... cryptocurrencies are not going anywhere anytime soon.

Trust me, I want good things for Bitshares shareholders.. I just cannot continue to sit back and bite my tongue on some issues. Think for yourselves people, as the saying goes.. more heads are better than one... echoing thoughts and opinions doesn't help anyone... specifically getting Bitshares to where it needs to be. An echo chamber is not what makes successful communities, companies, or currencies. Yes, I have been incredibly hard on Bitshares lately, but that is because I feel like hardly anyone else in this community is, and that is what is required to be successful.

[jwiz168]

Just wait until the marketing starts and the Music fundraiser is finished December 6th. Money is coming in to BTS soon. Enjoy this buying opportunity.

I just like it when mentioning money is coming.  Importantly Bitshares put up a legitimate financial platform that is fast and secured with so many assets that can be launched and exchanged.

[donkeypong]

Just wait until the marketing starts and the Music fundraiser is finished December 6th. Money is coming in to BTS soon. Enjoy this buying opportunity.

[eagleeye]

the dominating factor is bitAsset/Asset Exchange/cryptocurrency 2.0

[arhag]

I'm not a trader or anything but I would create a plot that overlays the BTC price of both. Even though BTS is traded BTS/CNY, this market rises and falls in dollar terms on the fortunes of Bitcoin, so they're highly correlated.

Enjoy: http://jsfiddle.net/p4qvLwwp/

Thanks. I would do it from earlier than that though

Not sure why considering that BTSX only started trading at around late July, but it is easy enough to change: http://jsfiddle.net/p4qvLwwp/3/

Edit: I made the tool more useful for comparing the two assets and trying to find correlations (http://jsfiddle.net/p4qvLwwp/4/). It now compares relative changes in the market caps (market caps priced in BTC) between the two assets starting from a date which can be selected by the user.

[Empirical1.1]

I'm not a trader or anything but I would create a plot that overlays the BTC price of both. Even though BTS is traded BTS/CNY, this market rises and falls in dollar terms on the fortunes of Bitcoin, so they're highly correlated.

Enjoy: http://jsfiddle.net/p4qvLwwp/

Thanks. I would do it from earlier than that though It's pretty obvious to me NXT has just been on a long term downtrend. For me the story is we spiked with the release of  BitAssets, then recovered as the initial flaws were improved upon but then entered a downtrend as dilution became a likely reality.

We have been evolving world changing tech at an incredible pace, we've added the DNS DAC value, PTS & Vote too. So just comparing us to NXT is also flawed. Maybe look at XCP, XRP & others. I really think people are just looking at something else in a BTC correlated downtrend to justify the movement.

I don't think we can say when we're rising in BTC, 'high fives guys, this is all us!' And then when we're falling compare ourselves to something else that's falling and say 'See, this has nothing to do with our actions'.

[btswildpig]

There is another factor though , a price ticking point .

If the sell pressure leads the price drop from 0.1CNY to 0.098CNY , then it would lead to more sell pressure in the Chinese market , just like BTC
drop from 300USD to 299 USD , panic occurs . Every major price point got tanked would lead to another chain reaction .

Also ， some big holder and speculators use some technical specs to predict the price movement , if the sell pressure changes one of these specs , like in a rock "W double bottom" , the price should move up according to the theory , but if the sell pressure breaks the "W" graph at this point even just with 1% price drop , then the speculator would not be convinced this is a rock bottom for them , they would sell off and buy cheap later , lead to another downing trend.

[arhag]

I'm not a trader or anything but I would create a plot that overlays the BTC price of both. Even though BTS is traded BTS/CNY, this market rises and falls in dollar terms on the fortunes of Bitcoin, so they're highly correlated.

Enjoy: http://jsfiddle.net/p4qvLwwp/

[CLains]

It's all in your head. Droplet of hype or FUD will cancel all your precious castles.

[Empirical1.1]

How low can we go? I want a (price, required buy volume) curve estimate to know how aggressively it safe to inflate.

Well, last 30 days shows no change due to news, despite all the bad feeling about it expressed on this forum:



Market caps - NXT is red, BTS is green. Notice they're basically the same? This says to me the dominating factor isn't inflation.

I created a nicer plot if you want to compare the price of BTSX vs NXT. They are all priced in USD but I also included BTC (or at least BTC/10000) in the plot for comparison as well. This is over a time period of the last 90 days.

I'm not a trader or anything but I would create a plot that overlays the BTC price of both. Even though BTS is traded BTS/CNY, this market rises and falls in dollar terms on the fortunes of Bitcoin, so they're highly correlated.

When you are rising in BTC terms you are outperforming BTC and are on an uptrend and vice versa imo.

My personal contention is that dilution has played a big role in our change of fortunes, despite the fact it's negligible in practice and many of the marketing and developer delegates will add far more value than they take away. For the record I'll start buying in more again if it keeps falling though.

[Ander]

the scenario that all delegates sell all their paid bts (with this prices) every month is at least ... "science fiction"... please...
(and consider the average payrate for all delegates will be low even in a couple of months....)

I agree. I didnt mean to imply that this would occur.

The reality is that the dilution is very tame, and should have only a small impact, especially if we only have 10 or 20 paid delegates.  Even if they are all selling.

[liondani]

Ok, now how do you estimate how actually adding $x of sell pressure per unit time will affect the price? Can we only inflate and immediately sell as the cap is rising or not?

If you are talking about the effect of one single paid delegate selling all their shares into the market as they get them, the effect is negligible. 

If you are talking about what would happen if 101 full pay delegates all sold all their shares into the market as soon as they got them, then lets take a look:


btc38 has roughly 10 million shares in volume per day.  101 full paid delegates would get 432000 BTS per day.   They would represent ~4% of the daily volume in terms of new sell pressure.  I think that this would be enough to impact the market, but not completely tank it.


Obviously, you get more value for your shares if you dilute when prices are high, during a bull cycle, rather than diluting deep in a bear market.  (I dont think anyone could argue that we are deep in a bear market, even if you think its going to get even worse).

the scenario that all delegates sell all their paid bts (with this prices) every month is at least ... "science fiction"... please...
(and consider the average payrate for all delegates will be low even in a couple of months....)

[arhag]

How low can we go? I want a (price, required buy volume) curve estimate to know how aggressively it safe to inflate.

Well, last 30 days shows no change due to news, despite all the bad feeling about it expressed on this forum:



Market caps - NXT is red, BTS is green. Notice they're basically the same? This says to me the dominating factor isn't inflation.

I created a nicer plot if you want to compare the price of BTSX vs NXT. They are all priced in USD but I also included BTC (or at least BTC/10000) in the plot for comparison as well. This is over a time period of the last 90 days.

[Ander]

Ok, now how do you estimate how actually adding $x of sell pressure per unit time will affect the price? Can we only inflate and immediately sell as the cap is rising or not?

If you are talking about the effect of one single paid delegate selling all their shares into the market as they get them, the effect is negligible. 

If you are talking about what would happen if 101 full pay delegates all sold all their shares into the market as soon as they got them, then lets take a look:


btc38 has roughly 10 million shares in volume per day.  101 full paid delegates would get 432000 BTS per day.   They would represent ~4% of the daily volume in terms of new sell pressure.  I think that this would be enough to impact the market, but not completely tank it.


Obviously, you get more value for your shares if you dilute when prices are high, during a bull cycle, rather than diluting deep in a bear market.  (I dont think anyone could argue that we are deep in a bear market, even if you think its going to get even worse). 

[liondani]

Right...If long term members in this community expect the low to be $20-$25 mil then the low will be $5 - $10 mil... Great...
Am I the only one in here shorting bitusd?? What's wrong with you people?? Is this such a bad move integrating DNS and Vote in BTS with 20% dilution??  Imagine what will happen if in the future for some reason there is a proposal to further inflate BTS by acquiring Music or Play..
lol..The business plan doesn't work very well currently...

My only hope is that, because I witness a lot of depression from many of us the last days (me included), that maybe in reality its the right  time we MUST buy more BTS(or short bitAssets like mf-tzo)... just saying...
(please don't blame me if I am proven in future to be wrong... )

[Empirical1.1]

How low can we go? I want a (price, required buy volume) curve estimate to know how aggressively it safe to inflate.

Well, last 30 days shows no change due to news, despite all the bad feeling about it expressed on this forum:



Market caps - NXT is red, BTS is green. Notice they're basically the same? This says to me the dominating factor isn't inflation.

That's wrong. Look at the 180 day graph of NXT vs. that of BitShares.

NXT has been in a long term downtrend since June. All you've done is overlay two equities that currently happen to be in a downtrend. As they're both priced in & effected by BTC a lot of the variance in their downtrend will be highly correlated.

[Ander]

Right...If long term members in this community expect the low to be $20-$25 mil then the low will be $5 - $10 mil... Great...

I thought the low would be 2 cents, and then it wasnt, so I had to accept the new reality.
I've learned better than to think there is some price which it is impossible to go below.  In anything. 

[mf-tzo]

Right...If long term members in this community expect the low to be $20-$25 mil then the low will be $5 - $10 mil... Great...
Am I the only one in here shorting bitusd?? What's wrong with you people?? Is this such a bad move integrating DNS and Vote in BTS with 20% dilution??  Imagine what will happen if in the future for some reason there is a proposal to further inflate BTS by acquiring Music or Play..
lol..The business plan doesn't work very well currently...

[Ander]

Well, last 30 days shows no change due to news, despite all the bad feeling about it expressed on this forum:

Market caps - NXT is red, BTS is green. Notice they're basically the same? This says to me the dominating factor isn't inflation.

I agree that the dominant factor was probably just the crypto bear market, not inflation.  But inflation did probably have some effect (there were definitely a couple periods where we dropped 10% more than other cryptos, right after dilution announcements and plan changes.


Also, while BTS performed similarly to NXT recently, both have performed weakly relative to the average altcoin during this period, and both actually had periods of terrible PR during this period.  NXT was plagued by horrible PR during the whole bluemeanie theft fiasco. 

(People were accusing him of stealing a million NXT by not delivering on what he promised to develop, he claimed he wasnt paid, he then revealed personal info of prominent NXT community members including calling their workplace and trying to get them fired from jobs, etc).

I was following NXT at the time because I had some, and it was approximately as horrible as all the FUD in bitshares, where we had all these posters saying I3 was a scam and had robbed them and calling bytemaster 'the bug' and so on.


Compare that to the charts of altcoins that have had good PR during this time, such as Counterparty and Ripple.  I do think the bad PR had some effect.  I would say that you are correct in saying it wasnt the #1 cause however.

[Ander]

I think that as soon as the marketing campaign actually starts that there should be enough incoming buy pressure that any sells from dilution should be negligible.

[luckybit]

How low can we go? I want a (price, required buy volume) curve estimate to know how aggressively it safe to inflate.

I think the floor is around 20-25 million market cap. When we are in the same range as Dogecoin then I'd say that is the floor.

That means hold onto your BitUSD if you're going to wait it out or slowly buy BitUSD over the next few weeks. The only way I see something breaking us out of this is if marketing kicks in and new people enter the market. No need blood and people will drain their stashes because there is an opportunity cost to holding BitUSD.

[bytemaster]

Ok, now how do you estimate how actually adding $x of sell pressure per unit time will affect the price? Can we only inflate and immediately sell as the cap is rising or not?

You can estimate ability of the market to handle sell pressure as a percentage of daily volume.   A development team funded at $100K per month would be able to liquidate in a single day and move the price at most a percent or two.  The rest of the month would see normal price action.   

In reality dilution at these levels has no meaningful effect on the price.   In theory developers should commit to keeping over 50% of their pay in BTS and thus the "sell pressure" should only be half the dilution rate.   

[toast]

Ok, now how do you estimate how actually adding $x of sell pressure per unit time will affect the price? Can we only inflate and immediately sell as the cap is rising or not?

[monsterer]

How low can we go? I want a (price, required buy volume) curve estimate to know how aggressively it safe to inflate.

Well, last 30 days shows no change due to news, despite all the bad feeling about it expressed on this forum:



Market caps - NXT is red, BTS is green. Notice they're basically the same? This says to me the dominating factor isn't inflation.

[toast]

How low can we go? I want a (price, required buy volume) curve estimate to know how aggressively it safe to inflate.