Author Topic: Imagine  (Read 19761 times)

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Offline Empirical1.1

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Agreed ... although .. from blockchain perspective .. BM can be "replaced" as a developer ... just saying

The blockchain is independent of the devs!!

Yes but from the public's perspective BM is the creator and founder--->therefore anything he says or does can and will be held against the blockchain in the mainstream media.

I think that might have been one of the reasons Satoshi wanted to remain anonymous and left bitcoin after it could walk on it's own.

I think most people who are drawn to BitShares will believe in greater individual freedom and privacy to some degree.

I think a key leader, like Bytemaster, who believes in those ideals to the maximum is probably a positive. So even though I think these ideas will create some robust debates, & I personally think he's too idealistic, that's kind of the point of the song 'Some may say I'm a dreamer'  I also think now that we've transitioned to more of a competitive company than crypto-currency metaphor that it's also good to root ourselves in some meaning or purpose that's not entirely Darwinistically ruthless and his personal vision for the world is something that does that.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 06:28:42 pm by Empirical1.1 »

zerosum

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I can make this into an original song if you so desire.
I  say - just do it!

Offline evolvo

I can make this into an original song if you so desire.
Welcome To The Blockchain (The Bitcoin Song) - by Toby + Decap

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbzNJr26H-4

Offline xeroc

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Offline Mysto

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Agreed ... although .. from blockchain perspective .. BM can be "replaced" as a developer ... just saying

The blockchain is independent of the devs!!

Yes but from the public's perspective BM is the creator and founder--->therefore anything he says or does can and will be held against the blockchain in the mainstream media.

I think that might have been one of the reasons Satoshi wanted to remain anonymous and left bitcoin after it could walk on it's own.

Offline xeroc

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Agreed ... although .. from blockchain perspective .. BM can be "replaced" as a developer ... just saying

The blockchain is independent of the devs!!

Offline Mysto

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Lets say you get burgled and have to defend yourself, and prosecutors argue that you used excessive force (which people often do). How is a blockchain going to help you there? You need a lawyer.

And I cant imagine a world without prisons either. I especially think rapists should be imprisoned for far longer.

Imagine means "be creative" and look for a solution.   In my opinion just because someone is raped they don't get a free pass on robbing someone else at gunpoint to pay to put someone in prison who has a non-0 % chance of being innocent.   A significant number of "rape" cases are fraudulent charges or they accuse the wrong man.     

I could go into an economic analysis of the situation... but imagine a solution exists that does not involve stealing from innocents to punish possible bad guys.   

Better 100 guilty men go free than 1 innocent man rot in jail.   

As far as immediate self defense goes... that is up to public opinion.  If jail is off the table then lawyers are optional.

Honestly BM you and I (and most people on this forum) have a very similar political stance... but if we are trying to market this to the "mainstream" you can't be so political. What you are doing right now is the equivalent of running into the matrix and shouting "THIS IS A FAKE WORLD WAKE UP PEOPLE, YOU'RE BEING CONTROLLED BY THE MACHINES!"

You would be right but in most other people's eyes you would be crazy.
I could imagine 3 years from now when bts is larger, a random news outlet using your political views as a reason not to use bts (I know it doesn't make sense but the media has done worst)

If I were you I would try to be a lot less political. But that's just me.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 05:33:15 pm by Mysto »

Offline Empirical1.1

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Weird... in the frenzy of my last nights posting and the forum software playing ticks on me, my response to Emperical got lost...

In short, do you believe that the crime in GB is less than in your home country because the Brits have 50x better penalties or better law enforcement or better police? Or just because the criminals are 50x less likely to commit crimes?


My answer is simple -  there are 50 better ways to make a living in GB, so the crime is about 50x less...

And doubling the # of persons, the money spent on crime prevention, and doubling the penalties in any of those 2 will do nothing to  the real crime level.

All of those are a factor. Better law enforcement is the key though. 
You are either harshly deterred by the likelihood of getting caught & the punishment, be it from law or violence from community justice. (Given the choice between community violence or shunning, few would choose the violence, hence the communities free market solution to deterring crime is violence  :( ) Where deterrents are ineffective, good law enforcement can at least remove people from society.  As I mentioned though even the best legal system is not without many terrible faults.

Only people sheltered by a semi-functioning first world legal system and a poor understanding of human psychology tend to believe in far more idealistic alternatives. I think the alternatives sound wonderful though, I encourage pursuit of them whether through blockchain technology or other methods, any ways of creating respectful harmonious societies that require less threats of force or violence. Just don't expect me or my loved ones to live in them till the concepts are fairly well proven in practice.

Edit: My current framework revolves around maximum individual freedom, whilst protecting people from violence, rape & serious crime. I also want to protect 'alleged' criminals from violence too.
My belief is any form of psychological punishment is both an insufficient psychological deterrent for violent crime and insufficient psychological punishment/justice from the POV of the victim and their loved ones that are affected by it, at this current stage of human evolution. Many rapists, murderers and people who enjoy violence are repeat offenders and so society is protected if they are removed. So I am in favour of a some legal system to deal with this issues and have yet to see something I consider a viable alternative.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 05:56:28 pm by Empirical1.1 »

Offline santaclause102

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Yeah I'm undecided. I grew up in South Africa. It has one of the highest murder rates in the world and over 80% go unsolved. I won't go into the gruesome detail of how those statistics play out when they affect some of your closest family and friends as well as many other life changing crimes such as gang rape etc.

So I actually prefer myself as well as my friends and loved ones living in the UK that has some kind of law enforcement even though it's possible I could be unfairly on the receiving end of it. Of course the system is flawed & does degenerate into an abuse of power. There is also one law for some and another for others.

Also you'll find if you ever have the unfortunate experience of living in a lawless world that basic human psychology seems to result in street/mob justice with little due process and the punishment of death for crimes as trivial as being accused of stealing a mobile phone.
Decent documentary on community justice - http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MKVBrR5YMJ0
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tyBzwEIj5QM

If there are blockchain solutions to some of these issues I welcome them.

I suggest that the problem in South Africa is not lack of prisons.   Take that same population and impose US laws on them and nothing will change.   If you think people obey laws simply because some politicians wrote them down on paper I have a bridge to sell you.

Good people don't need laws, bad people don't follow laws.   A free market system for coordinating non-violent solutions to crime can make a world of difference in places like South Africa.
I have learned a lot here about libertarianism and it resonates very well with many of my values! I'd like to learn more about the potential of a state free society.

There are two things I struggle with / do not know how a society without a central authority which can make people do things can solve:
 
1) How are environmental problems handled if not by prohibitions enforced by some authority?

2) The idea of a state (as a state of law) is  to guarantee certain rights to everybody and enforce those. The poorest man would have his rights (property rights, body integrity etc.) guaranteed as well as a rich man. Now this does not work well in many states and the individuals that are given that authority abuse their power often but it can work well enough to give everyone about the same basic guarantee to protect his/her life and property (in germany it works relatively well). In a society without a central authority wouldn't your most crucial rights (incl. property rights, the right to live / physical integrity) be depended on whether one can "afford" the necessary protection?
Practically: If I can't afford protection someone could just kill me take my kidney and there would be no effort made to prosecute the killer?

EDIT: Here is an additional thought related to point 2): Property rights in the sense that EVERYONE's property is secured can only exist if there is an authority that can enforce it (for property rights to be property rights in the sense that they are guaranteed to EVERYONE it is a necessary that the authority enforces the law as a neutral third party (=no corruption ; here is where the weak link is)). Otherwise what are property rights than the ability to protect your property? I'd say that such an ability is not a "right". This is unproblematic with products (definition below) because products can be traced back to the rightful maker of the product. It gets problematic with land:

There are two kinds of property: Ownership of land (incl. its resources) on the one side and ownership of materialized human work (products). The two are different because someone that has produced a product has every right to call it his and can therefore sell it. With EVERY land owned today someone has simply said that it is "his" at some point in time (except if a state sells land). One example is the american land-rush where so called "sooners" just claimed land IF they could enforce that no one violates it - but by what measure is it their "property"? Over time the forced claim of land was excepted and then enforced by the state. Another example would be mining resources on mars or on asteroids. Land and its resources do not belong to ANYONE by definition IF there is no common agreement about what land belongs to who. So land ownership is either maintained by the owner's own ability to defend it against other's using it or it is maintained by a common agreement that is necessarily enforced by some kind of state (land rush example: the state allowing colonialists to to claim land of a certain size) because what is a "common agreement" (=facts and rules excepted by EVERYONE) but a state that can enforce that common agreement.
END EDIT

Are there any solutions / mechanisms which could solve those problems?

I like the attitude to keep on searching for solutions and make the world better than it is today! ...that is why such discussions are valuable.

What I could NOT AGREE MORE WITH is that the laws and the organizational framework alone change NOTHING. Western societies (especially the US today and Europe during the colonialization) are trying to bring "order" and "democrarcy" and "constitutions" to it's "colonies" for ages which is the most devastating process which leads to endless amounts of violence long term.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 07:18:07 pm by delulo »

Offline Crossover

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Yeah I'm undecided. I grew up in South Africa. It has one of the highest murder rates in the world and over 80% go unsolved. I won't go into the gruesome detail of how those statistics play out when they affect some of your closest family and friends as well as many other life changing crimes such as gang rape etc.

So I actually prefer myself as well as my friends and loved ones living in the UK that has some kind of law enforcement even though it's possible I could be unfairly on the receiving end of it. Of course the system is flawed & does degenerate into an abuse of power. There is also one law for some and another for others.

Also you'll find if you ever have the unfortunate experience of living in a lawless world that basic human psychology seems to result in street/mob justice with little due process and the punishment of death for crimes as trivial as being accused of stealing a mobile phone.
Decent documentary on community justice - http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MKVBrR5YMJ0
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tyBzwEIj5QM

If there are blockchain solutions to some of these issues I welcome them.
i love free world theory, im idealist inside of me, and
 i grew up in pretty dangerous environment too, so forced to be realistic and pragmatic,
human beings are not equal, there are workaholics and lazybones, insolent and polite, smart and stupid, only time will tell what happen next with "freed" folks outside of US and Eu

zerosum

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Weird... in the frenzy of my last nights posting and the forum software playing ticks on me, my response to Emperical got lost...

In short, do you believe that the crime in GB is less than in your home country because the Brits have 50x better penalties or better law enforcement or better police? Or just because the criminals are 50x less likely to commit crimes?


My answer is simple -  there are 50 better ways to make a living in GB, so the crime is about 50x less...

And doubling the # of persons, the money spent on crime prevention, and doubling the penalties in any of those 2 will do nothing to  the real crime level.

Offline bytemaster

Yeah I'm undecided. I grew up in South Africa. It has one of the highest murder rates in the world and over 80% go unsolved. I won't go into the gruesome detail of how those statistics play out when they affect some of your closest family and friends as well as many other life changing crimes such as gang rape etc.

So I actually prefer myself as well as my friends and loved ones living in the UK that has some kind of law enforcement even though it's possible I could be unfairly on the receiving end of it. Of course the system is flawed & does degenerate into an abuse of power. There is also one law for some and another for others.

Also you'll find if you ever have the unfortunate experience of living in a lawless world that basic human psychology seems to result in street/mob justice with little due process and the punishment of death for crimes as trivial as being accused of stealing a mobile phone.
Decent documentary on community justice - http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MKVBrR5YMJ0
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tyBzwEIj5QM

If there are blockchain solutions to some of these issues I welcome them.

I suggest that the problem in South Africa is not lack of prisons.   Take that same population and impose US laws on them and nothing will change.   If you think people obey laws simply because some politicians wrote them down on paper I have a bridge to sell you.

Good people don't need laws, bad people don't follow laws.   A free market system for coordinating non-violent solutions to crime can make a world of difference in places like South Africa. 




For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

zerosum

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I do have an inner conflict about using this song as it "sacred" and I would be pissed off with any company that 'tampered' with it for financial gain.  It could create a very negative knee-jerk response in anger at a company defacing a masterpiece and I have that feeling myself too, so I would prefer a different song be used!  This could stir up a lot of negativity towards bitshares, what would I tell my friends lol?  This is the kind of thing I would complain to them about, a company using dead artists gift to the world for profit.  Is the song choice open for discussion?  I would go for something more catchy and trivial.  Maybe it being controversial and highly emotive could make it very effective.  I don't know.  Still its a very risky play.

If I have no choice in the matter and this song will be used anyway, I at least want it done effectively so here is my contribution:

Imagine

The song is very sombre if you listen to the original, if it's going to be used for marketing a remix should be used.  I found this remix
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbxKb4AFoes.  Perhaps the creator could be paid for his permission for us to use it.  It conveniently has no lyrics so they could simply be sung over the top. 

These lyrics are be sung melodramatically, emotionally and clearly by an individual man with a small backing choir of girls or a lone very strong black female singer giving humorously dramatic and sexy echoes of the verses as they are sung (echoes are written in brackets)

Try listening though it with the remix starting at 1 minute 30 seconds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbxKb4AFoes

In Verse 1 theres a pause between the the main lyric and the echo, with the next line starting just as the echo ends.  In verse two the echoes start immediately or overlapping with the main lyric line.

Verse 1:

Imagine there's free banking --pause-- (free banking)
it's here for everyone --pause--  (for everyone)
Nobody is left outside (no no no)
Not a single one --pause--  (not even a single one!)
Imagine there's free banking (ooh ohh ohh)
All sing:  Earning you interest

Chorus:
You may say we are a business
And we open for you now (wow ohh)
I hope today you'll join us
and deposit to Bitshares

Verse 2:

Imagine there's no borders (imagine theres no borders)
no international fees, (no international fees no no)
hidden bills are sent to the hills (sent too the hills yeah)
And tax payers funds aren't used (yes we're actually solvent) (spoken not sung)
Imagine there's no borders
We have no remittance fees!

Chorus:
You may say we are a business
And we open for you now (wow ohh)
I hope today you'll join us
and deposit to Bitshares

Perhaps there could be images of "give peace a chance" shown at the start of the video and end with "Give Bitshares a Chance"  Thought I'd add that idea in there.

Very fervent and cogitative post.

I just LOVE the lyrics as well. [additions are an attempt to improve on something already great]

"Imagine there is was free banking --pause-- (free banking)
it's here there for everyone --pause--  (for everyone to use)
Nobody is No-one left outside (no no no)
Not a single one --pause--  (not even a single one!)
Imagine there's free banking (ooh ohh ohh)
All sing:  Earning your interest

Chorus:
You may say we are a business/You may say you have a business
And we open for you now (wow ohh)
I hope today you'll join us
"

Offline matt608

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thanks! :)

Offline bytemaster


I do have an inner conflict about using this song as it "sacred" and I would be pissed off with any company that 'tampered' with it for financial gain.  It could create a very negative knee-jerk response in anger at a company defacing a masterpiece and I have that feeling myself too, so I would prefer a different song be used!  This could stir up a lot of negativity towards bitshares, what would I tell my friends lol?  This is the kind of thing I would complain to them about, a company using dead artists gift to the world for profit.  Is the song choice open for discussion?  I would go for something more catchy and trivial.  Maybe it being controversial and highly emotive could make it very effective.  I don't know.  Still its a very risky play.

If I have no choice in the matter and this song will be used anyway, I at least want it done effectively so here is my contribution:

Imagine

The song is very sombre if you listen to the original, if it's going to be used for marketing a remix should be used.  I found this remix
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbxKb4AFoes.  Perhaps the creator could be paid for his permission for us to use it.  It conveniently has no lyrics so they could simply be sung over the top. 

These lyrics are be sung melodramatically, emotionally and clearly by an individual man with a small backing choir of girls or a lone very strong black female singer giving humorously dramatic and sexy echoes of the verses as they are sung (echoes are written in brackets)

Try listening though it with the remix starting at 1 minute 30 seconds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbxKb4AFoes

In Verse 1 theres a pause between the the main lyric and the echo, with the next line starting just as the echo ends.  In verse two the echoes start immediately or overlapping with the main lyric line.

Verse 1:

Imagine there's free banking --pause-- (free banking)
it's here for everyone --pause--  (for everyone)
Nobody is left outside (no no no)
Not a single one --pause--  (not even a single one!)
Imagine there's free banking (ooh ohh ohh)
All sing:  Earning you interest

Chorus:
You may say we are a business
And we open for you now (wow ohh)
I hope today you'll join us
and deposit to Bitshares

Verse 2:

Imagine there's no borders (imagine theres no borders)
no international fees, (no international fees no no)
hidden bills are sent to the hills (sent too the hills yeah)
And tax payers funds aren't used (yes we're actually solvent) (spoken not sung)
Imagine there's no borders
We have no remittance fees!

Chorus:
You may say we are a business
And we open for you now (wow ohh)
I hope today you'll join us
and deposit to Bitshares

Perhaps there could be images of "give peace a chance" shown at the start of the video and end with "Give Bitshares a Chance"  Thought I'd add that idea in there.

Amazing. 
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.