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Offline washedup

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Delegates going public with their identity -- risks?
« on: December 01, 2014, 02:56:42 AM »

What are the responsibilities of going public?

What are the risks of going public?

Legally, politically, socially, and otherwise.

Am I protecting my family by not going public?

Offline washedup

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Re: Delegates going public with their identity -- risks?
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2014, 03:20:53 AM »
If revealing your identity does not have risk, we should enforce it.

If revealing your identity does have risk, we should
a. warn people
b. reward those who do

(The reward is more votes--but to help quantify the value of going public, we must know the costs.)

Offline Troglodactyl

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Re: Delegates going public with their identity -- risks?
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2014, 04:16:55 AM »
The risks and costs can't be known for certain in advance, and will vary widely based on location and circumstances.

The only way it will be enforced is by the preferences of the stakeholders as expressed through their voting.  Some might be distrustful of pseudonymous delegates, others might fear that having all publicly named delegates introduces new vulnerabilities.

In short, everyone just has to assess their own risks in the context of their own circumstances.

Offline washedup

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Re: Delegates going public with their identity -- risks?
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2014, 04:50:52 PM »
In short, everyone just has to assess their own risks in the context of their own circumstances.

This all makes sense, but I'm looking for specific examples to discuss.

Troglodactyl, what country are you in, and what might concern you about going public?

Offline Murderistic

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Re: Delegates going public with their identity -- risks?
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2014, 01:40:43 AM »
Good point, and one to consider.

I for one will be going public with my identity, since I am already somewhat in the public on other ventures, and have made no secret of my involvement in the success in this project.

Risks could be anything from extortion/kidnapping I suppose, especially if BTS were to blow up, and there are governmental risks to consider...

When Newsweek did that article I was fuming.  Image some guys going to "Satoshi's" house and kidnapping his mom and holding her ransom for his billions...


Offline Troglodactyl

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Re: Delegates going public with their identity -- risks?
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2014, 02:04:14 AM »
In short, everyone just has to assess their own risks in the context of their own circumstances.

This all makes sense, but I'm looking for specific examples to discuss.

Troglodactyl, what country are you in, and what might concern you about going public?

I'm in the United States, and if I were to run a delegate, I would be concerned about tax authorities reinterpreting the rules such that I was in violation, or generally wasting my time and resources determining if I was in violation or not.

Offline cusknee

Re: Delegates going public with their identity -- risks?
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2014, 04:11:13 AM »
Location in certain countries is a great cause for concern.

Offline hpenvy

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Re: Delegates going public with their identity -- risks?
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2014, 05:28:03 AM »
In short, everyone just has to assess their own risks in the context of their own circumstances.

This all makes sense, but I'm looking for specific examples to discuss.

Troglodactyl, what country are you in, and what might concern you about going public?

I'm in the United States, and if I were to run a delegate, I would be concerned about tax authorities reinterpreting the rules such that I was in violation, or generally wasting my time and resources determining if I was in violation or not.

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Offline pseudoscops

Re: Delegates going public with their identity -- risks?
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2014, 02:38:21 PM »
others might fear that having all publicly named delegates introduces new vulnerabilities.

I'm interested in this. Had always assumed being open about identity would be seen in a more positive light by the community - despite the additional risks this might open an individual up to depending on their location/circumstances. But Troglodactyl's point above seems like a valid one. What do others think, might it be beneficial to try and keep a 50/50 balance of public and anonymous delegates?

If so then perhaps it would make sense to add a new boolean field 'delegate.anonymous' or 'delegate.incognito' to the delegate fields added to public-data that Xeroc and svk were working on recently. See Wiki:

http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Delegate/PublicData

Offline xeroc

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Re: Delegates going public with their identity -- risks?
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2014, 03:08:55 PM »
If so then perhaps it would make sense to add a new boolean field 'delegate.anonymous' or 'delegate.incognito' to the delegate fields added to public-data that Xeroc and svk were working on recently. See Wiki:

http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Delegate/PublicData
I like that idea .. makes it easier for shareholders to figure out publicly known delegates ..
however, there needs to be a way to PROOF that an identity has been revealed .. Any ideas?
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Offline pseudoscops

Re: Delegates going public with their identity -- risks?
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2014, 04:48:11 PM »
In the short term perhaps the 'delegate.identity.anonymous' boolean is just that - a yes/no that shows your intention to remain anonymous or not. This still serves a purpose. The fact that we can't easily yet prove someones identity does not mean we shouldn't allow people to flag their intention to stay anonymous.

Proving identity is important but could be handled separately to indicating intention to remain anonymous. Having the latter quickly by adding the field to the public delegate data would be a win in my book. To prove ID in the short term might be difficult, time consuming and not an immediate priority. Most people believe with pretty much 100% certainty that BM is Dan Larmier without needing proof. He's built this trust over time and it's probably this sort of public identity that will get us through and be adequate in the short term for those wanting to run publicly. Perhaps a link to LinkedIn might help - still not proof though I know.

As the BitShares ecosystem matures then trusted third-parties already engaged and required to Know Your Customer (KYC) via passports etc could provide verification of delegates as service to the community. They could then provide a publicly available directory of those verified delegates. This might need two 'delegate.identity.verified' & 'delegate.identity.verifier'. Those third parties within the BitShares ecosystem don't exist yet, but maybe there are other services that I'm not aware of that could be leveraged for the purpose of verifying IDs. Do you need to prove your ID to register an SSL certificate? If so maybe we could bootstrap something together that takes advantage of this fact? Maybe others have more experience here and I'm missing something obviously easier to prove ID.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 04:58:52 PM by pseudoscops »

Offline roadscape

Re: Delegates going public with their identity -- risks?
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2014, 06:45:35 PM »
Maybe PGP (and keyserver?)

Post publicly a photo of your driver's license and hand-written PGP public key..
From then on, you can sign messages proving you are the one who posted the original photo/documentation.

A signed message would be added to delegate info.
"I, XXX, run delegate XXX as of XXX". (It must be updated periodically.)

Also, in the delegate info you could have proof_url -- pointing to a server hosting your uploaded image proof.
http://cryptofresh.com  |  witness: roadscape

Offline xeroc

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Re: Delegates going public with their identity -- risks?
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2014, 06:54:13 PM »
I'd say, let's wait for the 'vote' features to become online .. maybe BM can drop some details about that particular feature and how it will be implemented ..

anyway .. having a identity attribute would be a good idea ..
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Offline roadscape

Re: Delegates going public with their identity -- risks?
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2014, 07:10:23 PM »
Delegates should be able to choose the level of detail to reveal in their "proof"

 - A hand-written note (for those wishing to be 99.99% anonymous)
 - Just a picture of you, holding your public key on a slip of paper (or use audio/video!)
 - Government Id

Basically, it's a digitally-signable human-signed slip-of-paper. With adjustable levels of anonymity.

I like the idea of anonymous delegates/users showing their handwriting.
So that if additional proof is needed in the future, we would at least have the power to see if the handwriting matches.

edit:

I really dig that Riverhead gave his LinkedIn url on his delegate bid.

So as an example.. If he wanted to take that to the next stage, he could:
 - add his PGP key to his LinkedIn
 - to his delegate, add the linkedin url plus a PGP signature
 - post a signed message here (or wherever the future "delegate central" will be)
« Last Edit: December 02, 2014, 07:22:25 PM by roadkill »
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Offline xeroc

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Re: Delegates going public with their identity -- risks?
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2014, 09:13:01 PM »
can we come up with a unified json object to store these data:

Code: [Select]
"ident" : {
 "anonymous" : false,
 "fullname" : "",
 "proof" : "",   # social media url / url to (img) proof
 "message" : {
    "text" : "",
    "signature" : "",
 }
}
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