Author Topic: Economics on BTS 101 : Market cap is not our wealth to spend easily  (Read 12782 times)

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zerosum

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Actually I am on quite the opposite opinion on this...
Let's hire 10x more people that we have now. It will be like 60 delegates @ 100% .
Let's not evaluate them after 3 mo., let's do it in 4.5 mo...


It costs us 6.5%*0.6*4.5/12 or about  1.4625% inflation....
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 06:58:55 am by tonyk2 »

Offline btswildpig

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I think the biggest problem in this area is the lack of understanding between the East and West.  I think it will be hard to communicate about the delegates from the 2  and so each side will be a little bit less trustful of the other side.  I'd like to see as many Chinese delegates and I assume Chinese community would do a good job vetting them.

I'm talking about a economical situation in general .
Weather a delegate is capable and weather he can bring actual value to the system is two different thing .
The major concern is not vetting the delegate himself , but vetting the position and potential value for the system .

If this guy is good , do we want him ?  Oh wait , let's see , the system already has 2 great guys are doing things in the same direction , can you joint them instead of applying a independent position ?

If this guy is good , but what he does can only gain value for the system maybe after 1 year or so , do we want to pay him to gamble the future ? We should think about it , and if we want to gamble , we'll vote for him .

If this guy sounds bad , but what he propose may actually gain value for the system in big time , do we want him ?

Votes can only be worth something if the ones voting it are thinking from every aspect .
Every company has votes , good employees at some point , but not every one of them survived .
By voting , we are not just voting for a person , we're voting for the future and direction of the system .

If everyone thinks "it should not be any doubt to vote for somebody" , then what will we become ? 
If we lost the power or incentive for even a single doubt , then what is the voting for ?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 06:08:22 am by btswildpig »
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Offline gamey

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I think the biggest problem in this area is the lack of understanding between the East and West.  I think it will be hard to communicate about the delegates from the 2  and so each side will be a little bit less trustful of the other side.  I'd like to see as many Chinese delegates and I assume Chinese community would do a good job vetting them.
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline btswildpig

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If this is viewed as any kind of real problem, I would guess that some kind of vesting program can be instituted.

Obviously, some delegates will require instant access when the funds are purposed to be used immediately - but other delegates may want to campaign to voluntary accept a vesting payment schedule to demonstrate their long-term belief and commitment to BTS.

It was a little slow at first but people seem to be stepping up to take delegate roles and provide value along with lots of proposals for a variety of systems.  I'm actually quite happy with how it has been turning out lately.  For the past few weeks that definitely has not been the case, so we took the hit for dilution but then were not taking advantage of it. I'm in a better mood about how things are going.

In the early days, bad actors will be known and voted out fairly rapidly.  People worrying about their money being spent at this stage are not thinking rationally.

Correction : Only rational minds can think of the upside and downside of every move the system makes . It's the one way thinking that's irrational.  When enough people tells you " you shouldn't be worried " , then you should be worried .

Again, I would say go look up "loss aversion".  Look at how that relates to the amount of money you may lose versus to what you may gain.  Think of what a coin with only a handful of features gives us allowing other coins a much easier time to catch up. 

A person can make a completely rational choice and it will be 100% rational within the limitations of  their thinking.  That doesn't mean it will be equally rational to everyone else.

I'm not saying accept anyone, but I'm saying that the quality of delegates you guys are getting for the price at this point shouldn't have to you terribly concerned.  Didn't someone post volume and dilution #s to see how big of a role dilution could actually play in depressing the price ?

A side note , the dilution hit is not yet manifest . Many people are still thinking dilution means 2 billion to 2.5 billion .... because the low price cost them the interest to read news .
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 05:51:09 am by btswildpig »
这个是私人账号,表达的一切言论均不代表任何团队和任何人。This is my personal account , anything I said with this account will be my opinion alone and has nothing to do with any group.

Offline gamey

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If this is viewed as any kind of real problem, I would guess that some kind of vesting program can be instituted.

Obviously, some delegates will require instant access when the funds are purposed to be used immediately - but other delegates may want to campaign to voluntary accept a vesting payment schedule to demonstrate their long-term belief and commitment to BTS.

It was a little slow at first but people seem to be stepping up to take delegate roles and provide value along with lots of proposals for a variety of systems.  I'm actually quite happy with how it has been turning out lately.  For the past few weeks that definitely has not been the case, so we took the hit for dilution but then were not taking advantage of it. I'm in a better mood about how things are going.

In the early days, bad actors will be known and voted out fairly rapidly.  People worrying about their money being spent at this stage are not thinking rationally.

Correction : Only rational minds can think of the upside and downside of every move the system makes . It's the one way thinking that's irrational.  When enough people tells you " you shouldn't be worried " , then you should be worried .

Again, I would say go look up "loss aversion".  Look at how that relates to the amount of money you may lose versus to what you may gain.  Think of what a coin with only a handful of features gives us allowing other coins a much easier time to catch up. 

A person can make a completely rational choice and it will be 100% rational within the limitations of  their thinking.  That doesn't mean it will be equally rational to everyone else.

I'm not saying accept anyone, but I'm saying that the quality of delegates you guys are getting for the price at this point shouldn't have to you terribly concerned.  Didn't someone post volume and dilution #s to see how big of a role dilution could actually play in depressing the price ?
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline btswildpig

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If this is viewed as any kind of real problem, I would guess that some kind of vesting program can be instituted.

Obviously, some delegates will require instant access when the funds are purposed to be used immediately - but other delegates may want to campaign to voluntary accept a vesting payment schedule to demonstrate their long-term belief and commitment to BTS.

It was a little slow at first but people seem to be stepping up to take delegate roles and provide value along with lots of proposals for a variety of systems.  I'm actually quite happy with how it has been turning out lately.  For the past few weeks that definitely has not been the case, so we took the hit for dilution but then were not taking advantage of it. I'm in a better mood about how things are going.

In the early days, bad actors will be known and voted out fairly rapidly.  People worrying about their money being spent at this stage are not thinking rationally.

Correction : Only rational minds can think of the upside and downside of every move the system makes . It's the one way thinking that's irrational.  When enough people tells you " you shouldn't be worried " , then you should be worried .

« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 05:48:43 am by btswildpig »
这个是私人账号,表达的一切言论均不代表任何团队和任何人。This is my personal account , anything I said with this account will be my opinion alone and has nothing to do with any group.

Offline gamey

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If this is viewed as any kind of real problem, I would guess that some kind of vesting program can be instituted.

Obviously, some delegates will require instant access when the funds are purposed to be used immediately - but other delegates may want to campaign to voluntary accept a vesting payment schedule to demonstrate their long-term belief and commitment to BTS.

It was a little slow at first but people seem to be stepping up to take delegate roles and provide value along with lots of proposals for a variety of systems.  I'm actually quite happy with how it has been turning out lately.  For the past few weeks that definitely has not been the case, so we took the hit for dilution but then were not taking advantage of it. I'm in a better mood about how things are going.

In the early days, bad actors will be known and voted out fairly rapidly.  People worrying about their money being spent at this stage are not thinking rationally.
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline btswildpig

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Some people often view increasing in market cap as "gained value for the system" , well , it's not .

If you can not measure value for the system by market cap, what measurement do you use ?

revenues , market depth , investor's confidence , sustainability of the economic model ....
That's all that matters . Market cap can easily be faked .

It would be unwise to think any increment in market cap in short term can off set dilution in the same effect as increasing in revenues .

I thought the whole point is market cap.  What are revenues these days?  I'm confused.

Market depth will grow with market cap as will investor's confidence.

Market cap can't be easily faked for long.  I don't understand how you would believe this.  If market cap is too high, people will sell for value.  If it is too low, people will buy.  Liquidity problems adds variance to this process, but that should never be confused resulting in dismissing the value of market cap.

you can already see ripple's market cap over Litecoin . That should tell you something .
Ripple's price (= market cap) went up 300% with roughly the same cash that pumped BTS for 30% .

" If market cap is too high, people will sell for value"   that's a false anticipation because big whale can not sell even if they want to due to market depth .

I'm not talking about dismissing the value of market cap , but stressing the point that any increment in market cap can not be viewed as "money" to be easily spend because it's "insignificant comparing to the increment in market cap".

Personally I just think it is a case of loss aversion. 

Whales will be able to sell for value until the market corrects.

IMO nothing is as important as market cap.  What you have a hard time with is likely variance and it is a rare day to meet a person who intuitively understands it.  Everything else is just a little part of what makes up the market cap.

The money not in circulation shouldn't be dismissed.  It should mean the owners do not find the current value to be worth selling at.

If the inflow of speculator money are the only "income" that the system has for a long time , then yes , "The money not in circulation" should be dismissed because there was no money there to begin with .

Also , I'm familiar with this subject because I know the person responsable for the price drop even before the merger . He took out over 1.1 million from the system by convincing some of the big holders to withdraw the money to invest in other highly speculative market , which cost roughly 22 million USD drop in market cap .
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 05:35:18 am by btswildpig »
这个是私人账号,表达的一切言论均不代表任何团队和任何人。This is my personal account , anything I said with this account will be my opinion alone and has nothing to do with any group.

Offline bobmaloney

If this is viewed as any kind of real problem, I would guess that some kind of vesting program can be instituted.

Obviously, some delegates will require instant access when the funds are purposed to be used immediately - but other delegates may want to campaign to voluntary accept a vesting payment schedule to demonstrate their long-term belief and commitment to BTS.
"The crows seemed to be calling his name, thought Caw."
- Jack Handey (SNL)

Offline gamey

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Some people often view increasing in market cap as "gained value for the system" , well , it's not .

If you can not measure value for the system by market cap, what measurement do you use ?

revenues , market depth , investor's confidence , sustainability of the economic model ....
That's all that matters . Market cap can easily be faked .

It would be unwise to think any increment in market cap in short term can off set dilution in the same effect as increasing in revenues .

I thought the whole point is market cap.  What are revenues these days?  I'm confused.

Market depth will grow with market cap as will investor's confidence.

Market cap can't be easily faked for long.  I don't understand how you would believe this.  If market cap is too high, people will sell for value.  If it is too low, people will buy.  Liquidity problems adds variance to this process, but that should never be confused resulting in dismissing the value of market cap.

you can already see ripple's market cap over Litecoin . That should tell you something .
Ripple's price (= market cap) went up 300% with roughly the same cash that pumped BTS for 30% .

" If market cap is too high, people will sell for value"   that's a false anticipation because big whale can not sell even if they want to due to market depth .

I'm not talking about dismissing the value of market cap , but stressing the point that any increment in market cap can not be viewed as "money" to be easily spend because it's "insignificant comparing to the increment in market cap".

Personally I just think it is a case of loss aversion. 

Whales will be able to sell for value until the market corrects.

IMO nothing is as important as market cap.  What you have a hard time with is likely variance and it is a rare day to meet a person who intuitively understands it.  Everything else is just a little part of what makes up the market cap.

The money not in circulation shouldn't be dismissed.  It should mean the owners do not find the current value to be worth selling at.
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline btswildpig

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Some people often view increasing in market cap as "gained value for the system" , well , it's not .

If you can not measure value for the system by market cap, what measurement do you use ?

Compared with one month ago, or two month ago when stan said "there will be big thing soon", the current price and market cap of BTS is much lower, but actually, I think BTS system is constantly gaining value these days.

How to measure the value of a cryptocurrency is really a challenging topic, but market cap is definitely only one of all parameters.

Finally, I realized the meaning of "there will be big thing soon"- If you missed the early stage of BTS, we offer you a chance to get more BTS in a very cheap price.

Go back to the topic, I think we use market cap as a measurement factor isn't some big issue. In stock market, even in "Forbes list of billionaires", they do the same thing, use "market value of stock".

The Forbes billionaires spend the money in their company according to their "revenue" instead of "market value of stock" .
这个是私人账号,表达的一切言论均不代表任何团队和任何人。This is my personal account , anything I said with this account will be my opinion alone and has nothing to do with any group.

Offline consultant

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Some people often view increasing in market cap as "gained value for the system" , well , it's not .

If you can not measure value for the system by market cap, what measurement do you use ?

Compared with one month ago, or two month ago when stan said "there will be big thing soon", the current price and market cap of BTS is much lower, but actually, I think BTS system is constantly gaining value these days.

How to measure the value of a cryptocurrency is really a challenging topic, but market cap is definitely only one of all parameters.

Finally, I realized the meaning of "there will be big thing soon"- If you missed the early stage of BTS, we offer you a chance to get more BTS in a very cheap price.

Go back to the topic, I think we use market cap as a measurement factor isn't some big issue. In stock market, even in "Forbes list of billionaires", they do the same thing, use "market value of stock".

Offline btswildpig

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Some people often view increasing in market cap as "gained value for the system" , well , it's not .

If you can not measure value for the system by market cap, what measurement do you use ?

revenues , market depth , investor's confidence , sustainability of the economic model ....
That's all that matters . Market cap can easily be faked .

It would be unwise to think any increment in market cap in short term can off set dilution in the same effect as increasing in revenues .

I thought the whole point is market cap.  What are revenues these days?  I'm confused.

Market depth will grow with market cap as will investor's confidence.

Market cap can't be easily faked for long.  I don't understand how you would believe this.  If market cap is too high, people will sell for value.  If it is too low, people will buy.  Liquidity problems adds variance to this process, but that should never be confused resulting in dismissing the value of market cap.

you can already see ripple's market cap over Litecoin . That should tell you something .
Ripple's price (= market cap) went up 300% with roughly the same cash that pumped BTS for 30% .

" If market cap is too high, people will sell for value"   that's a false anticipation because big whale can not sell even if they want to due to market depth .

I'm not talking about dismissing the value of market cap , but stressing the point that any increment in market cap can not be viewed as "money" to be easily spend because it's "insignificant comparing to the increment in market cap".
这个是私人账号,表达的一切言论均不代表任何团队和任何人。This is my personal account , anything I said with this account will be my opinion alone and has nothing to do with any group.

zerosum

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If the people earning the BTS are holding 80% and only selling 20% to live then it balances out some.

I expected a better response.

So did I!

Should I put one myself or wait for a better one by someone smarter than me?

Offline btswildpig

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If the people earning the BTS are holding 80% and only selling 20% to live then it balances out some.

That would be a big if , like if "the miners are holding 80% and only selling 20% to live" .

That being said , this should be an interest topic to show how the delegates should do if they want their future in the BTS system can be sustained .

这个是私人账号,表达的一切言论均不代表任何团队和任何人。This is my personal account , anything I said with this account will be my opinion alone and has nothing to do with any group.