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Offline christo

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What is the delineation between Peertracks and Bitshares Music?
« on: December 16, 2014, 12:24:12 AM »

Following the advice of the Peertracks web site, I'm asking clarifying questions because I think the big project of equitable music distribution and commerce is vital for a healthy creative industry and I would expect others to have these same questions. As a part-time musician and a full-time software engineer, my obsession with blockchain technology has led me with great interest to this project. I'm concerned there may be insufficient clarity around the projects and their funding.

My understanding is that the presale of Notes raises money for the development of the Bitshares Music Foundation's own Bitshares Music blockchain upon which any "front-end" can provide music distribution services and artist coin services. Owners of Notes have an expectation that their contribution is used to build a common value.

Peertracks is the first of these front ends and is also being built by the same developers as the blockchain. Peertracks is also privately owned company while the Bitshares Music Foundation is a non-profit organisation. I don't know who the officers of the foundation are (is this published somewhere?)

Please correct me if any of this is wrong or misinterpreted.

Let me assure you I am not implying that there is any kind of misconduct or misleading behaviour going on. I expect there is merely an information gap as there often is in startups and projects at the beginning.

Nevertheless, I am looking for some specific information disclosures.

Are there some published statements from Peertracks or the Bitshares Music Foundation about which funds are used for funding the common utility of the DAC, the blockchain, open source code and which money will be used to develop and market Peertracks proprietary systems and brand properties? It seems the two organisations are very closely aligned and operationally blended.

Is there a source code repository for any of the work being funded by the sale of Notes?

This information would be crucial for my own decision process of whether to contribute financially to such a project and yet I have not been able to find this on the forum or on peertracks.com or bitsharesmusicfoundation.org which has a very prominent exclusive link to peertracks.com.

thanks in advance,

Christo

edit: typo
« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 12:56:34 AM by christo »

Offline oco101

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Re: What is the delineation between Peertracks and Bitshares Music?
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2014, 01:57:07 AM »
Good points. I too asked some of this questions but never got a answer to it. I trust Cob and the Music team, but I think as donors to this project we deserve a little bit more transparency.
Here are the pieces that I put together : bitsapphire is actively  working on the front end, also  I understand the MVP will not use the blockchain and they hope to have it ready  by March. The plan is to wait until a very stable version of Bitshare toolkit is out  is out and only then they will be starting working on connecting PeerTracks with the blochain.

What I would like add a few question to your list. 
    • Do they have developers that will be working on the backend ?
    • Is there a marketing plan and when it will start  ? Presently there is absolutely 0 marketing happening.
    • A official weakly or monthly update will be great any hope on that ?

    Thanks.

Offline christo

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Re: What is the delineation between Peertracks and Bitshares Music?
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2014, 02:48:15 AM »
Thanks for the support oco101.

I was a little concerned that my probing questions would be taken as some kind of attack but I am absolutely not interested in doing anything of the sort.

My concerns are around forming expectations for the project using my own experience in software development. I think the fact that monetary contributions are invested in something that is clearly promoted as a growing future potential, this makes the need for transparency absolutely critical.

There is a lot of optimism in this forum, I find that quite attractive and I'm optimistic too. I'm also very intent on seeing the future potential of an equitable music distribution and commerce platform.

Right now I'm wondering whether the project is giving the right signals to a more skeptical observer. The regulated investment and securities system - flawed as it is - has quite a lot of procedural rules around disclosure, conflict of interest and operational consistency. This closes many loopholes that shady operators have abused in the past. If the voluntary activities of BitShares projects adhere to the spirit of similar diligence, the chance of a project going wrong will be less and the overall risk to BitShares will be lower.

Offline cob

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Re: What is the delineation between Peertracks and Bitshares Music?
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2014, 08:20:53 PM »
Hi guys.

The BitShares Newsletter is coming out within the week I was told. It has a section all about the music project.

For those interested in acquiring Notes, the only way to do that will be through the online (centralized) exchanges that support it. Pre-sale has been over for 2 weeks now.

I'm actually typing up, as we speak, an update to the site + a newsletter set to go out first days of January.

The goal is to let everyone know just what we are up to. The problem with having a project that is on one side open sourced/decentralized/P2P and the other side is a for profit corporation going up against giants in a shark infested ocean! Quite the juggling act :)
We could go ahead and release everything we have so far, in order to satisfy the crypto community but if we did that, we open ourselves up to tremendous risk from the competition. I'm not talking the crypto competition here like ethereum or BitTunes or anything like that. I'm talking about YouTube, Apple, Spotify, etc.
The BitShares Music Blockchain depends on PeerTracks and PeerTracks depends on the blockchain. At least in the early stages. PeerTracks must stay closed source in order to come out the gates swinging. And BitShares Music must be open sourced for the obvious reasons.

So here is my solution for the short term.

We are writing up a detailed schedule of everything happening within the first quarter of 2015. That way you all know what to expect and you aren't left in the dark.

One thing is certain even today, we are launching in March. So going back from there, you will know what dates we will be showing off the wallet, the PeerTracks platform, and of course all the code for the blockchain.

Regarding the back end, BitShares 1.0 needs to be out for us to send our people down to Virginia to work directly with the core team.
In the meantime they are working on everything else. The Music project has evolved into something much bigger than just a DPOS blockchain. It will actually be a entire stack of technologies working together. For now the only info available regarding code, is the C++ version of hyperledger that BitSapphire just converted and of course what the BitShares core team is doing.
The wallet BitSapphire did is still closed source, so is the PeerTracks website, etc.

So the closer we get to march, the more secret sauces will be revealed until everything is out there.

All this to say that in the first days of January you will be presented with a detailed schedule with the main milestones clearly stated. This will be posted in the forums, it will be a newsletter in itself and the sites will be updated accordingly as well.


Happy Holidays till then!
« Last Edit: December 19, 2014, 08:25:35 PM by cob »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline oco101

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Re: What is the delineation between Peertracks and Bitshares Music?
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2014, 08:28:17 PM »
Hi guys.

The BitShares Newsletter is coming out within the week I was told. It has a section all about the music project.

For those interested in acquiring Notes, the only way to do that will be through the online (centralized) exchanges that support it. Pre-sale has been over for 2 weeks now.

I'm actually typing up, as we speak, an update to the site + a newsletter set to go out first days of January.

The goal is to let everyone know just what we are up to. The problem with having a project that is on one side open sourced/decentralized/P2P and the other side is a for profit corporation going up against giants in a shark infested ocean! Quite the juggling act :)
We could go ahead and release everything we have so far, in order to satisfy the crypto community but if we did that, we open ourselves up to tremendous risk from the competition. I'm not talking the crypto competition here like ethereum or BitTunes or anything like that. I'm talking about YouTube, Apple, Spotify, etc.
The BitShares Music Blockchain depends on PeerTracks and PeerTracks depends on the blockchain. At least in the early stages. PeerTracks must stay closed source in order to come out the gates swinging. And BitShares Music must be open sourced for the obvious reasons.

So here is my solution for the short term.

We are writing up a detailed schedule of everything happening within the first quarter of 2015. That way you all know what to expect and you aren't left in the dark.

One thing is certain even today, we are launching in March. So going back from there, you will know what dates we will be showing off the wallet, the PeerTracks platform, and of course all the code for the blockchain.

Regarding the back end, BitShares 1.0 needs to be out for us to send our people down to Virginia to work directly with the core team.
In the meantime they are working on everything else. The Music project has evolved into something much bigger than just a DPOS blockchain. It will actually be a entire stack of technologies working together. For now the only info available regarding code, is the C++ version of hyperledger that BitSapphire just converted and of course what the BitShares core team is doing.
The wallet BitSapphire did is still closed source, so is the PeerTracks website, etc.

So the closer we get to march, the more secret sauces will be revealed until everything is out there.

All this to say that in the first days of January you will be presented with a detailed schedule with the main milestones clearly stated. This will be posted in the forums, it will be a newsletter in itself and the sites will be updated accordingly as well.


Happy Holidays till then!

Wow  that sounds great. Very exiting news. Happy Holidays to all Music team. Thanks for the update.

Offline christo

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Re: What is the delineation between Peertracks and Bitshares Music?
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2014, 10:01:35 AM »
Hi Cob,

Thanks for your reply. The BitShares newsletter will contain a schedule of estimated work for the next quarter. I understand you believe in the need for secrecy so Peertracks can compete with Apple etc.

However, it doesn't seem that you have answered my question. I'm sorry if I didn't ask it clearly.

How much of the Bitcoin raised from the purchase of Notes is being spent on development of Peertracks intellectual property which is going to be owned by Peertracks for the benefit of its shareholders and how much is going to the development of open source software that benefits everyone?

If I read between the lines of your response it seems that there is no separation between Peertracks and Bitshares Music Foundation at this stage.

It also seems from what you have said so far that, currently, 100% of the money is being spent on developing Peertracks proprietary systems but you will be sending some people to Virginia to work with the BitShares core team later (after they release 1.0) and that's when the percentage will change from 100% and the work on open source code will happen.

Do you see how somebody might imagine a conflict of interest here?

Apologies if I have misunderstood.


Offline christo

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Re: What is the delineation between Peertracks and Bitshares Music?
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2014, 02:48:39 AM »

Whereof a lawyer is needed, thereof non-lawyers must remain silent.

Curious about your comment here. Are you suggesting that there are legal impediments to anyone from the project actually answering my question?

Offline christo

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Re: What is the delineation between Peertracks and Bitshares Music?
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2014, 11:08:51 AM »
Cob I notice you've since posted in the other thread so I can only assume you've either missed this or decided not to answer my question.

Offline christo

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Re: What is the delineation between Peertracks and Bitshares Music?
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2015, 11:59:43 PM »

The BitShares Newsletter is coming out within the week I was told. It has a section all about the music project.

Cob, I read the music part of the newsletter and it contains no information about this topic. It seems to focus exclusively on PeerTracks which is a private company building a proprietary system. I don't understand why this is supposed to be a new concept in music distribution. The blockchain may well receive none of the resources collected in the Notes sale and you wouldn't be breaking any promises. Don't you see how damaging it is to remain silent on the definition of what the money is for?

I'm not asking about the secret plans for PeerTracks to compete with Apple. I'm asking how much of the donations you received you intend to spend on your own private company.

Surely it's also important to realise that the Notes Sale Agreement contract makes no single mention of PeerTracks. It says that the "BitShares Music Foundation" will "fund development" but leaves no clue as to whether the resulting intellectual property paid for by the Foundation with funds received by Notes purchasers will actually be owned by the foundation in whole or part or whether the Foundation will instead merely route this money into a black hole. None of these omissions are a good sign. It gives me a sinking feeling of dread and makes me worry for you and the project goals.

It's not a lot of money, and I'm not suggesting that this is a scam but I'm increasingly flabbergasted by your apparent unwillingness to say anything about how the funds will be apportioned. I assume you know the answer since you're the one writing newsletter contributions. If you don't know the answer then you're definitely in over your head.

Assuming, as I do, that you are a good guy with good intentions, perhaps you can accept that you are putting your reputation in danger here. You have the opportunity now, before spending that money, to clarify the distinction between your private property (PeerTracks) and a publicly funded, non-profit foundation. Failing to take that opportunity is a risk you should seriously think through.

All this to say that in the first days of January you will be presented with a detailed schedule with the main milestones clearly stated. This will be posted in the forums, it will be a newsletter in itself and the sites will be updated accordingly as well.

I'm keen to read that but a detailed schedule will be useless to me if it does not explain who owns the software being made and who gets the money making it.

Offline cob

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Re: What is the delineation between Peertracks and Bitshares Music?
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2015, 03:40:05 AM »
The objective is to have a blockchain be the backbone of the music industry. To bootstrap this we need a streaming service like Spotify to show the way and bring use and value to that new blockchain. For that reason we do not prioritize one over the other as far as importance. Meaning PeerTracks is as important as the BitShares Music blockchain. There was a pre-sale, as you know, and the funds are being used for both front and back end, whatever needs to be done will be done.
If you want to know exact numbers and percentages of where the money is going, I don't have that. There are still so many variables to all this. Especially since that Bitcoin for Rockstars article came out! We are trying to address those issues and that means a lot of R&D and changes to be made to the blockchain. The goal posts keep moving. Also keep in mind that before the pre-sale, we put in a lot of our own money into the music project.

And to answer your question about what will be PeerTracks property. Only the PeerTracks website. The blockchain will be just like BitShares - run by delegates, elected by the holders of Notes. Any website, app will be able to plug into the network, no permission required from PeerTracks if that is what your fear.
Also, the music project won't only be a DPOS blockchain. It'll be a stack, made up of open source stuff like Hyperledger.

Anyway, I hope the first quarter will get you excited about this whole thing. It is getting better and better every single week. Can't wait to actually show you guys some results!
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 03:42:35 AM by cob »
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline christo

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Re: What is the delineation between Peertracks and Bitshares Music?
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2015, 05:21:42 AM »
Thanks for your response Cob.

So if I wanted to work on this problem of equitable music distribution and commerce I would not be able to collaborate on or integrate with the music blockchain until its planned release in March. After that launch Peertracks will also be competing with other companies to deliver streaming and curation services etc. on top of that BitShares Music Blockchain, likewise non-competing complementary services can be developed only after that time.

I understand that it's difficult to make public statements about how the money will be split between the company and the non-profit when you haven't yet decided how the money should be spent. Hopefully you've received legal advice about the proper operation of the two entities!

Is Peertracks a registered company and is BitShares Music Foundation a registered non-profit? I can't find any registration records for entities with these names. The Notes Sale Agreement does not identify any registered entities. Peertracks domain names however, have been registered to a company called "The Corral Group". Is this a parent company?

It may sound like I'm hassling you here, but really I'm just trying to establish exactly how the project is being run since I'm a potential passionate advocate and supporter. Also, you seem to be the project's primary spokesperson.


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Re: What is the delineation between Peertracks and Bitshares Music?
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2015, 05:39:09 AM »
There are still so many variables to all this. Especially since that Bitcoin for Rockstars article came out! We are trying to address those issues and that means a lot of R&D and changes to be made to the blockchain. The goal posts keep moving.

So i take it that means you guys are thinking of including something that does what the author of that article suggest:  A rights and royalty management db for artist and those that need to pay artist?


From the article
Quote
The platform would have two complementary functions:

1. It would contain accurate, real-time, global data encompassing credits and rights ownership. This would make it the universal, authoritative reservoir for these types of information, and it would be open to and accessible by anyone.
2. It would serve as an instantaneous, frictionless payments routing infrastructure for all music usage fees and royalties.

Offline xeroc

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Re: What is the delineation between Peertracks and Bitshares Music?
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2015, 12:56:53 PM »
damn cob .. I just managed to cool down my excitement and then you release this newsletter statement .. 8)
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 04:39:19 PM by xeroc »
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jaran

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Re: What is the delineation between Peertracks and Bitshares Music?
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2015, 04:07:54 PM »
damn cob .. I just managed to cool down my excitement and then you release this newsletter .. 8)

A music newsletter was sent out?  if so do you have a web link?

 

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