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Offline alexkravets

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Ripple goes from adjacent-possible to REAL.
« on: December 20, 2014, 01:03:05 AM »

Fidor bank transaction just hit Ripple ledger and funds were transferred from Germany to a US recipient.

https://xrptalk.org/topic/3781-fidor-bank-testing-the-auslands%C3%BCberweisung-%C3%BCber-ripple/page-4

Transaction details are here

http://ripplebot.com/4F88B09740DC70A8CA7658ADD183903D47BC1A503273A9899BB216AA229BDA11/


Gentlemen,

Today December 19th, 2014 is the birthday of the new global Monetary / Settlement system.


P.S. This is a calendar of upcoming Ripple events https://ripple.com/events/

This thing is going mainstream .... fast
« Last Edit: December 20, 2014, 01:17:53 AM by alexkravets »

Offline gamey

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Re: Ripple goes from adjacent-possible to REAL.
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2014, 01:14:13 AM »
Fidor bank transaction just hit Ripple ledger and funds were transferred from Germany to a US recipient.

https://xrptalk.org/topic/3781-fidor-bank-testing-the-auslands%C3%BCberweisung-%C3%BCber-ripple/page-4

Transaction details are here

http://ripplebot.com/4F88B09740DC70A8CA7658ADD183903D47BC1A503273A9899BB216AA229BDA11/


Gentlemen,

Today December 19th, 2014 is the birthday of the new global Monetary / Settlement system.

Full of IOUs that will need bailouts at some point.
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline alexkravets

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Re: Ripple goes from adjacent-possible to REAL.
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2014, 01:35:27 AM »
Full of IOUs that will need bailouts at some point.

Ledger-recorded debts are older as a form of money than coins or other tangibles, it used to be kept by the tribal chiefs.

Ripple adds nothing new, if an existing bank issues IOUs into ripple and then goes bust, Ripple adds nothing new there either.

Offline mitao

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Re: Ripple goes from adjacent-possible to REAL.
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2014, 03:05:18 AM »
Fidor bank...hmmm far from mainstream

Offline Rune

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Re: Ripple goes from adjacent-possible to REAL.
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2014, 11:21:51 AM »
Just like bitcoin carved out the basic infrastructure for wallets and exchanges, ripple is carving out the infrastructure of gateways. Bitshares is looking forward to assimilating all of it, when it is ready.

Offline celticwarrior72

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Re: Ripple goes from adjacent-possible to REAL.
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2014, 03:05:40 PM »
Fidor bank...hmmm far from mainstream

First adopters invariably are.

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Re: Ripple goes from adjacent-possible to REAL.
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2014, 03:24:00 PM »
Ripple is a great technology, but could you explain what makes XRP currency valuable? As I understand, it's needed only for exchanging exotic pairs of currencies for which there is no direct market. Any reason for someone to have a large reserve of XRP other than speculation?

What would be a reasonable market cap for XRP in your opinion if Ripple protocol gets a wide adoption?

Fidor bank transaction just hit Ripple ledger and funds were transferred from Germany to a US recipient.

https://xrptalk.org/topic/3781-fidor-bank-testing-the-auslands%C3%BCberweisung-%C3%BCber-ripple/page-4

Transaction details are here

http://ripplebot.com/4F88B09740DC70A8CA7658ADD183903D47BC1A503273A9899BB216AA229BDA11/


Gentlemen,

Today December 19th, 2014 is the birthday of the new global Monetary / Settlement system.


P.S. This is a calendar of upcoming Ripple events https://ripple.com/events/

This thing is going mainstream .... fast

Offline kisa

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Re: Ripple goes from adjacent-possible to REAL.
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2014, 03:33:52 PM »
Ripple is a great technology, but could you explain what makes XRP currency valuable? As I understand, it's needed only for exchanging exotic pairs of currencies for which there is no direct market. Any reason for someone to have a large reserve of XRP other than speculation?

What would be a reasonable market cap for XRP in your opinion if Ripple protocol gets a wide adoption?

Fidor bank transaction just hit Ripple ledger and funds were transferred from Germany to a US recipient.

https://xrptalk.org/topic/3781-fidor-bank-testing-the-auslands%C3%BCberweisung-%C3%BCber-ripple/page-4

Transaction details are here

http://ripplebot.com/4F88B09740DC70A8CA7658ADD183903D47BC1A503273A9899BB216AA229BDA11/


Gentlemen,

Today December 19th, 2014 is the birthday of the new global Monetary / Settlement system.


P.S. This is a calendar of upcoming Ripple events https://ripple.com/events/

This thing is going mainstream .... fast

Here in the following thread this was discussed...
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=11636.msg155639#msg155639

Offline Rune

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Re: Ripple goes from adjacent-possible to REAL.
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2014, 03:34:44 PM »
Ripple is a great technology, but could you explain what makes XRP currency valuable? As I understand, it's needed only for exchanging exotic pairs of currencies for which there is no direct market. Any reason for someone to have a large reserve of XRP other than speculation?

What would be a reasonable market cap for XRP in your opinion if Ripple protocol gets a wide adoption?

Fidor bank transaction just hit Ripple ledger and funds were transferred from Germany to a US recipient.

https://xrptalk.org/topic/3781-fidor-bank-testing-the-auslands%C3%BCberweisung-%C3%BCber-ripple/page-4

Transaction details are here

http://ripplebot.com/4F88B09740DC70A8CA7658ADD183903D47BC1A503273A9899BB216AA229BDA11/


Gentlemen,

Today December 19th, 2014 is the birthday of the new global Monetary / Settlement system.


P.S. This is a calendar of upcoming Ripple events https://ripple.com/events/

This thing is going mainstream .... fast

As XRP liquidity increases it ends up becoming cheaper to go through XRP than trading anything directly. XRP is valuable because it's needed to earn these high volume low spreads. BitUSD will have even lower spreads in the long run because it has lower volatility.

Offline alexkravets

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Re: Ripple goes from adjacent-possible to REAL.
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2014, 08:34:02 PM »
As XRP liquidity increases it ends up becoming cheaper to go through XRP than trading anything directly. XRP is valuable because it's needed to earn these high volume low spreads. BitUSD will have even lower spreads in the long run because it has lower volatility.

Rune,

That sounds plausible and amen to that, however the SUFFICIENT condition for this to happen is the depth and liquidity of BitUSD trading vs BTS and other Bit* pairs

Offline Rune

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Re: Ripple goes from adjacent-possible to REAL.
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2014, 11:36:50 PM »
As XRP liquidity increases it ends up becoming cheaper to go through XRP than trading anything directly. XRP is valuable because it's needed to earn these high volume low spreads. BitUSD will have even lower spreads in the long run because it has lower volatility.

Rune,

That sounds plausible and amen to that, however the SUFFICIENT condition for this to happen is the depth and liquidity of BitUSD trading vs BTS and other Bit* pairs

Absolutely. And BTS also needs to be finished and actually useable first :P

I didn't even realize how much of an achievement the ripple path-finding algorithm is, I'm pretty amazed that it was already fully functional years ago. It's probably gonna take at least a year before bitshares will have that copied. I suspect ripple will be a huge deal by then, much bigger than bitcoin currently is. But long term it doesn't seem likely that ripple will be able to compete with a decentralized exchange powered by bitUSD, since there will be almost no friction for ripple gateways to also support bitshares.

Offline gamey

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Re: Ripple goes from adjacent-possible to REAL.
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2014, 11:42:41 PM »

I didn't even realize how much of an achievement the ripple path-finding algorithm is, I'm pretty amazed that it was already fully functional years ago. It's probably gonna take at least a year before bitshares will have that copied.

Could you go into this a bit more?  What are they accomplishing?
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Offline bitsapphire

Re: Ripple goes from adjacent-possible to REAL.
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2014, 11:55:59 PM »

I didn't even realize how much of an achievement the ripple path-finding algorithm is, I'm pretty amazed that it was already fully functional years ago. It's probably gonna take at least a year before bitshares will have that copied.

Could you go into this a bit more?  What are they accomplishing?

Ripple solved the pathfinding problem through a node-based solution implementing. It solved it by utilizing known solutions to the Minimum Spanning Tree problem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_spanning_tree.

Bitshares could easily create a much more efficient solution by allowing any and all assets (UIA and Bitassets) to be used for collateral of bitAssets. In the case of UIA usage for bitAsset collateralization new problems of defaults can arise though. However, if implemented properly then bitAssets would become the ultimate pathfinding mechanism as they are effectively Steiner Points, or in other words solving the Steiner Tree http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steiner_tree_problem.
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Offline Rune

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Re: Ripple goes from adjacent-possible to REAL.
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2014, 12:01:53 AM »

I didn't even realize how much of an achievement the ripple path-finding algorithm is, I'm pretty amazed that it was already fully functional years ago. It's probably gonna take at least a year before bitshares will have that copied.

Could you go into this a bit more?  What are they accomplishing?

Arhag made a nice explanation of what is needed to do what ripple does:

However I still think we're still a quite a while off before we can fully compete with ripple on convenience, because right now I don't think it's possible to do several market orders in a single bitshares transaction (and thus jump 2 pairs in one block, making our transaction speed competitive).

According to this post, that is not true.

Yes you can make several orders in a single transaction, but I don't think you can make an order with an asset that you don't own yet. e.g. if you only have a USD IOU, you can't buy bitUSD and then instantly buy a JPY IOU with that bitUSD in the same transaction (resulting in no bitUSD ever touching your wallet, you just used them as a liquidity token).

Oh, I see. You are talking about Ripple's path finding algorithm.

You don't want to just atomically place asks and bids in different markets, you want to ensure the order is atomically matched so that you are never left holding the intermediate asset (in this case BitUSD). And it would be even better if you could simply place an order that provides a source amount (balance and asset type) and the destination asset type (and possibility a limit price on source to destination conversion), and let the blockchain find the most efficient path to get there.

Of course that creates some of the order types of typical exchanges that BitShares currently doesn't have. Without the price limit restriction, the previous system could be used to do market orders. With the price limit, the previous system could be used to do limit orders. In either case, this allows for front running, which is why BitShares has the "you only get the price you ask for" order types. It also reduces market fee revenue for the DAC because overlaps would disappear, but that is less of an issue to me.

I wonder whether or not the "you only get the price you ask for" model is the best way to fight against front running. Why not just have exchange orders (other than cancelling existing orders or covering shorts) be a two stage transaction? The first stage requires submitting a commitment of your order to the blockchain which expires in 50 seconds but requires you to wait 30 seconds before the second stage is valid. The second stage requires submitting the actual order within the appropriate time interval. By the time someone sees the actual order, submits a new commitment, and gets the second stage of their front running order accepted into the blockchain, the original order has either already been accepted (and potentially matched) or it has not and has in fact become invalid. If it did become invalid, the original order submitter then has the ability to reevaluate the order book and decide whether to resubmit the order or modify it. In that case, the person attempting to front run will not necessarily get guaranteed profits.


There's also the issue of IOU's having their transaction fees in BTS. It needs to be possible to pay the transaction fee by automatically selling IOU for BTS in in the IOU transaction itself. I'm sure all these things will come within the next 6 months though.

Yes, that is annoying. It would be nice to at least be able to pay the IOU transfer fees with BitUSD. This would require the blockchain to be able to convert between the various assets it collects by placing its own orders on the exchanges. But that would provide so many advantages. People could pay transaction fees in any asset they want (the blockchain would automatically deduct the necessary amount of the asset to fulfill a market order to convert into the necessary amount of the desired fee asset type, whether that is BTS or better yet BitUSD). The blockchain could also pay delegates and workers in BitUSD (or other BitCurrencies) and it can could convert diluted BTS into BitUSD through the exchanges as necessary to meet the delegate/worker salary liabilities (within the dilution cap limits of course).

I do hope that all of these enhancements will eventually come to BitShares, but I suspect it won't be in the next 6 months.

So basically ripple doesn't just have a decentralized exchange, it has some complicated order types that allows you to place several orders in a single transaction and be guaranteed that they will all be matched, all while somehow preventing front running and still keeping transaction speed at 5 seconds. It's pretty neat, but it's also something that will be a lot easier to copy than to come up with in the first place.

Offline Rune

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Re: Ripple goes from adjacent-possible to REAL.
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2014, 12:19:00 AM »
Quote
Bitshares could easily create a much more efficient solution by allowing any and all assets (UIA and Bitassets) to be used for collateral of bitAssets. In the case of UIA usage for bitAsset collateralization new problems of defaults can arise though. However, if implemented properly then bitAssets would become the ultimate pathfinding mechanism as they are effectively Steiner Points, or in other words solving the Steiner Tree http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steiner_tree_problem.

I don't think it will be possible to have bitassets collateralized by anything other than BTS. Differently collateralized bitassets wouldn't be fungible, and if they were collateralized by an IOU they would actually hurt the value of bitshares. But I agree that bitassets are the perfect "middlemen" for conversions. In fact I suspect it will be most efficient to have only a single central bitasset that has active markets with every other asset, and that everything else is traded through: the least volatile asset. This will most likely be bitUSD in the early years.

Tbh, if implementing a full pathfinding algorithm on our blockchain were too problematic in the beginning, I wouldn't even be oppossed to simply have bitUSD as a hardcoded global steiner point, because I think it would end up as that anyway (until the USD tanks that is).

 

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