PTS - the insane gift that keeps on giving!

[Empirical1.1]

As someone who owns a lot of PTS.

DevShares, which is directly linked to BTS, dropping on PTS especially any post 11/05 PTS is crazy.

[Pheonike]

This makes know sense. You are saying there are not enough bts holders around to give DVS shares any value worth testing with? Do we need pts users (whatever that means now) in order to test the product? That's really sad if we can't enough bts users together to test the product in a meaningful way.

[jshow5555]

When any developer considers whether she should sharedrop on PTS, she must naturally ask who best represents the PTS demographic - the people who dumped them or the people who bought them up?  If PTS represents the "Hold On for Dear Life" (HODL) demographic, then all dumpers have clearly and voluntarily resigned from that category.  On the other hand, those who bought under such uncertainty are a truly special demographic.  Why would any developer choose to honor old dumpers rather than new HODLers?

Nice demographic you are targeting! I see  now. PTS hodlers that have no BTS, for some reason. Sold their BTS to hodl to PTS? Nice...real nice! Totally worth giving them 80x more value than the BTSers, I see now the ultimate wisdom of the decision...

properly, properly
Totally, worth it forgetting the promise to care about BTS interests only and the fact that you will no longer honor PTS.
properly, properly

[btswildpig]

Stan .......

I hate to break this to you .

But in this case , there was no misunderstanding .

If you bother to spend 3 minutes like I just did to look for stuff , you'll see I'm right at 100% .  (send me a PM if you can't see that in a day )

I was actually starting to doubt my understanding skills and language skills , then , I found that .

I can live with changes , I can live with hard choices , but this wasn't that hard to begin with , just a neglect  .

You guys simply forgot what you've said on record before making the allocation for devshares . That's OK , just own your mistakes . People will understand . But they can't understand that you turn this into their own problem and accuse them being not seeing the truth .

[islandking]

A divided community will not last.

[Rune]

Why would anyone want to purchase DevShares?

I answered this. It's to run tests, that's it. That's the stated function.

The people who will buy DVS to run tests will be BTS delegates, using diluted funds paid by BTS holders ONLY. Unless DVS is sharedropped only to BTS holders, it will have a secondary function as a wealth transfer from BTS owners to AGS/PTS owners for absolutely no logical reason. Even if the price ends up being vanishingly small it's an issue of respect that will stay with the community.

I'm pretty sure most in the Chinese community haven't realized DVS will have real value and be listed on exchanges yet. Once it's listed and gets a market cap, the amount of the involuntary donation from BTS to PTS/AGS will be observable as 66% of that market cap. I think it's a situation we should avoid if we want to ensure the community doesn't get even more disillusioned before we even have a chance to begin marketing.

[Stan]

actually , many Chinese thought devshares snapshot is based on 11.05 snapshot , including me and many other people who are good at finding information . Many of them are still confused . We can't see a reaction now because many of them still don't know . And I'm not even sure what I
should tell them , because 11.05 was the final one , that was the cold hard social consensus when BTC38 delisted PTS .

It's like a no brainer , when BM say AGS/PTS/BTS snapshot at 12.14 , people will automatically come to the conclusion :
AGS uses 7.18 snapshot , BTS uses 12.14 snapshot , PTS uses 11.05 snapshot .

Why would people think DEV used 11.05 snapshot for PTS ? I don't think you need to ask that question after BTC38 delisted PTS after 11.05 , right ? I don't think you need to ask that question when people sold PTS at 2 CNY right after 11.05 , right ?

Are we all mistaken what's the true meaning of 11.05 snapshot ? Maybe , but if people like me are mistaken , how would you expect from the common users who know nothing about what's going behind the scene ?  Will we in the future see more statements like "I didn't mean that , you are mistaken ? "

How many times can we endure to do changes after the facts like this ? 11.05 snapshot was the final one , at least before Alphabar made his case and changed the whole dynamic . But that doesn't mean the 11.05 was not intended to be the final one , because , let's face it , it did .

Personally , I don't really care the value of devshares , I don't think many people do . I don't really have an opinion what the dev's should do . I'm just telling you what people are gonna say .

The way I look at it, alphabar just made PTS liquid again.  Anyone could have done that, even years later.  (Many have lobbied for someone to do that for AGS, have they not?)  Whether making something liquid works or not depends on whether developers will choose to honor the liquid version or not.  So lets look at what developers are probably thinking:

When any developer considers whether she should sharedrop on PTS, she must naturally ask who best represents the PTS demographic - the people who dumped them or the people who bought them up?  If PTS represents the "Hold On for Dear Life" (HODL) demographic, then all dumpers have clearly and voluntarily resigned from that category.  On the other hand, those who bought under such uncertainty are a truly special demographic.  Why would any developer choose to honor old dumpers rather than new HODLers?

Those who dumped took someone else's money. 
Either they intended to transfer their rights for an agreeable price or they intended to cheat their buyers.
Which was it?

This is intended to be a decentralized industry with many players who have independent agendas.  We want market forces to rule, not a central company.  There won't be a single clear voice that we can insist must become clearer and that we can hold up as the "official" unchangeable position.  There will only be independent actors discussing their views in public and deciding what their own actions will be.  This is the price of decentralization.  None of us are really experienced at thinking this way.  But it is what we have been working toward for the past year.

As some of those independent actors
we post everything we are doing and most things we are thinking.
(You wouldn't want us to post everything we are thinking!  )

We are more open than most companies and developer communities I have seen.

We are happy to answer questions when there are misunderstandings.
But we don't have any way of detecting misunderstandings in other language communities if someone doesn't ask us whether prevailing assumptions are correct.  Those who lead those communities have a special responsibility to double-check every detail. 

Never trust a single translation. 
Translators have been known to leave out little details they don't agree with.

[btswildpig]

cube , check the posts above by other western members .
Some of them read the meaning of 11.05 snapshot exactly the same as the Chinese .

It's not a language barrier issue . You can't expect to put out incomplete information and hope people will ask the right questions covering any possible angle to clear their misunderstanding . Especially some of that element cost the question to be brought up was not yet there to begin with . There was no devshares expected in November .

Also , if anyone is thinking that I have trouble communicating with foreigners and understand exactly what they're saying  , please feel free to ask around . I'm the one who is constantly providing real time Chinese-English translations in the mumble section . I also wrote a PR peace for Max Wright (bitmarket) which can also prove my language , writing and understanding skills .

Don't try to blame everything on language barrier now , language is not the only element required in forming a clear communication channel .

[cube]

actually , many Chinese thought devshares snapshot is based on 11.05 snapshot , including me and many other people who are good at finding information . Many of them are still confused . We can't see a reaction now because many of them still don't know . And I'm not even sure what I
should tell them , because 11.05 was the final one , that was the cold hard social consensus when BTC38 delisted PTS .

The information was accurately released in www.bts.hk to the Chinese community. And it was re-affirmed in https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=12628.msg166215#msg166215.

There is a difference between not knowing the fact and knowing the fact exists but mentally denies its existence.

It's like a no brainer , when BM say AGS/PTS/BTS snapshot at 12.14 , people will automatically come to the conclusion :
AGS uses 7.18 snapshot , BTS uses 12.14 snapshot , PTS uses 11.05 snapshot .

Why would people think DEV used 11.05 snapshot for PTS ? I don't think you need to ask that question after BTC38 delisted PTS after 11.05 , right ? I don't think you need to ask that question when people sold PTS at 2 CNY right after 11.05 , right ?

Are we all mistaken what's the true meaning of 11.05 snapshot ? Maybe , but if people like me are mistaken , how would you expect from the common users who know nothing about what's going behind the scene ?  Will we in the future see more statements like "I didn't mean that , you are mistaken ? "

BTC38, like many other exchanges, has to do what is best for their company's interests. The actions they take may not necessary be aligned with their customers' interests.  Bter, for instance, remains committed to provide a trading platform for PTS while  BTC38 decides to take a bet on trading bitCNY.

Quite sadly there are some Chinese who mistakenly assumed 11.05 as the 'last snapshot' and did not check the fact with I3.  They sold off their PTS holding right after 11.05.  This is an unfortunate event and I understand the pain of those involved.  However, I do not think I3 nor anyone should take the blame for this unfortunate event.

How many times can we endure to do changes after the facts like this ? 11.05 snapshot was the final one , at least before Alphabar made his case and changed the whole dynamic . But that doesn't mean the 11.05 was not intended to be the final one , because , let's face it , it did .

Personally , I don't really care the value of devshares , I don't think many people do . I don't really have an opinion what the dev's should do . I'm just telling you what people are gonna say .

Some Chinese have suffered from 'misinformation' or lack of information due to the language barrier.  And in a number of times while I visited the Chinese forum, there were  people who attempted to translate a few articles from the English section.  Good attempts. Some of the transactions were right while others were off.  When the translation is off, misunderstanding happens.

PTS and the recent multiple DAC mergers are but two of the many occasions where they were left wondering what the hell was happening.  I am with you on that - communication needs to improve.  BM and his team understand that, and they are working to enhance communication with the Chinese, and other local groups.

[toast]

Why would anyone want to purchase DevShares?

I answered this. It's to run tests, that's it. That's the stated function.

[btswildpig]

Personally , I don't want the dev team to be forced to change the allocation plan again .
Despite all the heat that might bring .

Because , if there will be any heat , and FUD , and other crazy reaction from the market , then maybe they can really start to treat this like a serious business and start thinking seriously like CEO in big companies would do . In the real business world , you can't just talk your way out of any mess , please remember that before making any future "romantic" and "idealism" plans like keep defending any PTS version post 11.05 snapshot .

Don't give people any excuse to jump ship in the future , ok ? 
Because , they will , if things like this keep happening .  You don't often get a second chance after what happened in October .

That's not a threat , that's just the simple assessment . Especially when the Chinese is going to Lunar new year which the custom states that people must bring home a lot of cash for their elders . Which investment do you think they should dump to get that kind of cash ? Do you want BTS is the first "must dump" in their mind ? 

[sumantso]

12) still not getting what you want?  - create a threat

I strongly support dropping DVS on PTS, and I will downvote any delegate that rejects the PTS sharedrop.

[btswildpig]

DVS has to be relaunched with a 100% sharedrop to BTS anyway, unless you want to see our market cap evaporate from the torrents of FUD the current distribution will generate in the Chinese community once they find out.

Anyway it's a natural right for a stakeholder in a DAC to demand that delegates they fund use only a testnet that was sharedropped to them, without any donations to third parties. If it becomes apparent that our delegates do not serve the stakeholders then our community will lose all credibility.

The Chinese community is informed and well aware of the Devshares distribution but they are not creating FUD.

There is much to learn from this thread.  When one does not get what he/she wants, the recipe to turn things into their favour is:

1) create lots of noise - claiming 'unfair,  'suffered', 'wronged'
2) create fear - not many are following the events, they are easy targets
3) create uncertainties - not many are following the events, they are easy targets
4) create sourness and actively make sure it spreads
5) rally those influenced to go against the established
6) create more noise
7) repeat step 1 to 7
8_) still not getting what you want? - make a demand
9) make a stronger demand
10) rally more people (get those influenced to go against the established)
11) repeat step 9 to 10
12) still not getting what you want?  - create a threat
13) make a stronger threat
14) make a even stronger threatening threat
15) rally more people (get those influenced to go against the established)
16) repeat step 12 to 15
17) more to be discovered.. stay tuned
18) repeat recipe until BM and/or Stan and/or the devs give in

BM wants to use bitshares as a tool to free people from politics.  An admirable goal but I am not sure how that can be achieved.

actually , many Chinese thought devshares snapshot is based on 11.05 snapshot , including me and many other people who are good at finding information . Many of them are still confused . We can't see a reaction now because many of them still don't know . And I'm not even sure what I
should tell them , because 11.05 was the final one , that was the cold hard social consensus when BTC38 delisted PTS .

It's like a no brainer , when BM say AGS/PTS/BTS snapshot at 12.14 , people will automatically come to the conclusion :
AGS uses 7.18 snapshot , BTS uses 12.14 snapshot , PTS uses 11.05 snapshot .

Why would people think DEV used 11.05 snapshot for PTS ? I don't think you need to ask that question after BTC38 delisted PTS after 11.05 , right ? I don't think you need to ask that question when people sold PTS at 2 CNY right after 11.05 , right ?

Are we all mistaken what's the true meaning of 11.05 snapshot ? Maybe , but if people like me are mistaken , how would you expect from the common users who know nothing about what's going behind the scene ?  Will we in the future see more statements like "I didn't mean that , you are mistaken ? "

How many times can we endure to do changes after the facts like this ? 11.05 snapshot was the final one , at least before Alphabar made his case and changed the whole dynamic . But that doesn't mean the 11.05 was not intended to be the final one , because , let's face it , it did .

Personally , I don't really care the value of devshares , I don't think many people do . I don't really have an opinion what the dev's should do . I'm just telling you what people are gonna say .

[cube]

DVS has to be relaunched with a 100% sharedrop to BTS anyway, unless you want to see our market cap evaporate from the torrents of FUD the current distribution will generate in the Chinese community once they find out.

Anyway it's a natural right for a stakeholder in a DAC to demand that delegates they fund use only a testnet that was sharedropped to them, without any donations to third parties. If it becomes apparent that our delegates do not serve the stakeholders then our community will lose all credibility.

The Chinese community is informed and well aware of the Devshares distribution but they are not creating FUD.

There is much to learn from this thread.  When one does not get what he/she wants, the recipe to turn things into their favour is:

1) create lots of noise - claiming 'unfair,  'suffered', 'wronged'
2) create fear - not many are following the events, they are easy targets
3) create uncertainties - not many are following the events, they are easy targets
4) create sourness and actively make sure it spreads
5) rally those influenced to go against the established
6) create more noise
7) repeat step 1 to 7
8_) still not getting what you want? - make a demand
9) make a stronger demand
10) rally more people (get those influenced to go against the established)
11) repeat step 9 to 10
12) still not getting what you want?  - create a threat
13) make a stronger threat
14) make a even stronger threatening threat
15) rally more people (get those influenced to go against the established)
16) repeat step 13 to 15
17) more to be discovered.. stay tuned
18) repeat recipe until BM and/or Stan and/or the devs give in

BM wants to use bitshares as a tool to free people from politics.  An admirable goal but I am not sure how that can be achieved.

[Rune]

It's dangerous and irresponsible for us to make people feel like their DVS is worth holding on to.

Why would anyone want to purchase DevShares?

It may be useful for DevShares to limit the total supply to something very low like 5000, to avoid facing the impossibility of trading at sub-satoshi levels.

What you're really saying is precision needs to be higher (we weren't close to the limit even at 2bn). Unfortunately we already launched, maybe we will need to reset or maybe there will just be a price floor at ~$10k market cap =P

DVS has to be relaunched with a 100% sharedrop to BTS anyway, unless you want to see our market cap evaporate from the torrents of FUD the current distribution will generate in the Chinese community once they find out.

Anyway it's a natural right for a stakeholder in a DAC to demand that delegates they fund use only a testnet that was sharedropped to them, without any donations to third parties. If it becomes apparent that our delegates do not serve the stakeholders then our community will lose all credibility.