Author Topic: How to lure top devs into being hired by BitShares  (Read 9825 times)

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Offline Gentso1

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Where do low cost, high talent programmers like to hang out?

In their parent's basement.

Seeing Dan and Stan relation their may be some truth to this :o but I am going to give Dan some credit and suggest he hangs out in his own basement now.

Offline gamey

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Where do low cost, high talent programmers like to hang out?

In their parent's basement.
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Offline Gentso1

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El mato and his mobile wallet are great to showcase.

He showed up out of the mist it seemed with just a faint glow from his mobile wallet that was working but early alpha. We practically jumped the guy like some kind of rabid pack of crypto enthusiasts and demanded that he run a delegate @100% pay rate.

Their are alot of reasons for not doing certain things until 1.0 of the client is released but trying to hire talent is not one of them.


Bitcoin talk may not be the ideal place to try to push Bitshares but a signature campaign along of the lines of "Bitshares: The blockchain is hiring" might be effective. After all we aren't trying to convert them per say just looking for talent. The only cost would be sig space and a banner and that should be minimal.


Where do low cost, high talent programmers like to hang out?

Offline davidpbrown

Whats the best way to get Chinese devs thinking up ideas etc ?

Communicate the opportunity widely.

Make obvious that a good dev can present their idea to BitShares core developers by way of a pitch for a slice of a delegate.. and state how much money that is; have a delegate ready that can be passed to them as something of a prize. Perhaps set up a prize fund from a 100% delegate and award to the most useful and innovative dev.zh. Competition and bug finding prizes?

Put out calls for what we know is needed.. if only those are translations of key software; mobile wallets; etc.. perhaps first step is getting key texts translated.. make the wiki readable to dev.zh and perhaps also bytemaster's blog. I have a welcome page on my site, which must be one of the most translated pages on the net.. and that was trivial from simply by asking passers by in each language to translate it.. capture the preferred language setting of visitors to the wiki and drop them to a page targeting their language and asking for their help translating that page or others. Beyond translation, just use the preferred first language =zh and push those to a page acknowledging their interest and declaring BitShares' intention to engage devs.zh.

Make clear the ambition and allude to what is missing.. anything that directly engages merchants and businesses; and anything else that gives wider access to rich populations.. doesn't have to be just .zh maybe could equally be opportunity in India.. they must have talent too? Is India warm to crypto-currencies and assets??.. bitRuppee ftw???

All efforts to reach beyond .en will be another dimension that Ripple etc miss out on.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2014, 09:55:02 pm by davidpbrown »
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Offline gamey

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So the big question is how do we get Chinese developers interested in the project?

From my observations developers will need to make their own role.  Dan has talked about how much more productive everyone is when they're on site.  I believe that.  However there is the flip side to that and that is the communication is done in person and a remote developer would likely miss out on a lot of discussion and have a harder time ramping up.  So typically they'd do aspects that are fairly independent like web services of value to the community.  Mobile apps etc.  Anything peripheral.

So it goes back to getting Chinese developers interested in the BTS project so they can even begin to understand the codebase or what services are needed.  The best thing is obviously if they get their own project and start showing it to people.  A business plan type thing would be fine too.  Finance your own project!  So we are asking for people beyond typical software developer skills - like pc said.here is a problem - solve it.

Doing blockchain development really seems to be an interesting job.  I don't think it would ever hurt a resume if it is legitimate Bitshares type project.  Whats the best way to get Chinese devs thinking up ideas etc ?
« Last Edit: December 27, 2014, 09:15:36 pm by gamey »
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Offline Empirical1.1

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2.5K USD a month can hire a very talented PC developer in big cities in China . (by highly talented , I mean highly highly )

The developers on mobile device are more expensive , around 3000 -4000 USD a month .

But the problem is that crypto currency industry is not yet recognized in China . Most people think crypto currency is somehow a ponzi , let alone quit their real stable job and working for one .
BitShares / blockchain developement bootcamp in China :) Might even be profitable...

Or a chinese developer could simply be guarented a pay in cny and a delegate converts the bts into cny and pays it to the developer. If there are some legal hurdles 15% or something could be kept for doing legal due diligence and maybe setting up a chinese enterprise if necessary. Just a few wild ideas...

I think the main issue is finding the right developer. Toast was already involved through this forum, met Dan and co and it worked. I think he brought in Vikram too.

Having said that, there is a strong Chinese presence, and besides the dude who fronted the money for I3 certainly has resources to find the right guy (he allied with BM in the first place after all).

This is the obvious direction I see BitShares and everyone who wants to be competitive going. China is the 2nd largest economy in the world, largest population and we are very lucky that they are already our largest stakeholders. As it's a global market and crypto is global, if shareholders can get the same quality of work for <1/3 of the price then obviously many of the development jobs in this industry will move there over time. The high money Western jobs will end up going to a few rockstar developers but mainly BitShares entrepeneurs, advertising, marketing & PR as that's something a strong Eastern base won't be able to get right for a global market internally.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2014, 09:51:56 pm by Empirical1.1 »

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2.5K USD a month can hire a very talented PC developer in big cities in China . (by highly talented , I mean highly highly )

The developers on mobile device are more expensive , around 3000 -4000 USD a month .

But the problem is that crypto currency industry is not yet recognized in China . Most people think crypto currency is somehow a ponzi , let alone quit their real stable job and working for one .
BitShares / blockchain developement bootcamp in China :) Might even be profitable...

Or a chinese developer could simply be guarented a pay in cny and a delegate converts the bts into cny and pays it to the developer. If there are some legal hurdles 15% or something could be kept for doing legal due diligence and maybe setting up a chinese enterprise if necessary. Just a few wild ideas...

I think the main issue is finding the right developer. Toast was already involved through this forum, met Dan and co and it worked. I think he brought in Vikram too.

Having said that, there is a strong Chinese presence, and besides the dude who fronted the money for I3 certainly has resources to find the right guy (he allied with BM in the first place after all).

Offline santaclause102

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2.5K USD a month can hire a very talented PC developer in big cities in China . (by highly talented , I mean highly highly )

The developers on mobile device are more expensive , around 3000 -4000 USD a month .

But the problem is that crypto currency industry is not yet recognized in China . Most people think crypto currency is somehow a ponzi , let alone quit their real stable job and working for one .
BitShares / blockchain developement bootcamp in China :) Might even be profitable...

Or a chinese developer could simply be guarented a pay in cny and a delegate converts the bts into cny and pays it to the developer. If there are some legal hurdles 15% or something could be kept for doing legal due diligence and maybe setting up a chinese enterprise if necessary. Just a few wild ideas...
« Last Edit: December 27, 2014, 06:05:37 pm by delulo »

Offline jsidhu

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You are not factoring in income tax.. At 5k a month It is about the same as 8k a month in fiat.

You still have to pay income tax if you are a public figure such as a delegate. 

10K isn't greedy either.   It is a reality that if you give a developer a choice between:

1) Working for Google at $120,000 per year and buying $60,000 worth of BTS per year
2) Working for the block chain at $60,000 per year and spending it all on living expenses

And you assume the developer knows BTS will go to the moon... he will pick 1 over 2 every time.

For those outside the software development industry you are experiencing a recession, but any developer with any kind of skill is in high demand even developers straight out of school such as Toast, Vikram, and Nathan.   

You only pay tax when you go back to fiat or declare your BTC (stupid idea). It is a different concept from income tax because you're take home pay is automagically factoring in income tax while payment from delegate is not.

I agree that any kind of serious software developer is in high demand and is worth his weight in gold at these prices. Definitely one of the best careers going fwd. Especially those that have some kind of business sense.
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Offline btswildpig

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2.5K USD a month can hire a very talented PC developer in big cities in China . (by highly talented , I mean highly highly )

The developers on mobile device are more expensive , around 3000 -4000 USD a month .

But the problem is that crypto currency industry is not yet recognized in China . Most people think crypto currency is somehow a ponzi , let alone quit their real stable job and working for one .
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Offline bytemaster

You are not factoring in income tax.. At 5k a month It is about the same as 8k a month in fiat.

You still have to pay income tax if you are a public figure such as a delegate. 

10K isn't greedy either.   It is a reality that if you give a developer a choice between:

1) Working for Google at $120,000 per year and buying $60,000 worth of BTS per year
2) Working for the block chain at $60,000 per year and spending it all on living expenses

And you assume the developer knows BTS will go to the moon... he will pick 1 over 2 every time.

For those outside the software development industry you are experiencing a recession, but any developer with any kind of skill is in high demand even developers straight out of school such as Toast, Vikram, and Nathan.   



 
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Offline Stan

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There will come a time when delegate slots will become premium employment positions.

There will come a time when delegate slots will fund small businesses.  (At Bitcoin scale, each delegate has a potential 2 or 3 million dollar budget.)

Many of us look at Silicon Valley as the classic ecosystem for tech startup incubation.

Imagine a BitShares Valley of 101 innovative small businesses competing to hire top developers.

That's where we are heading.

In the mean time, it will mostly be entrepreneurs, not code-to-spec engineers, who are likely to compete for these slots with the goal of becoming one of the BitShares Valley Fortune 100 companies in a few years.  Entrepreneurs have always been willing to take a risky/loss-leader position in the short run for a shot at the pot of gold at the end of their journey.

We offer a "less-high-risk", fairly clear path for entrepreneurs to follow.   They seldom have that luxury.

...and that should be enough!

:)
« Last Edit: December 27, 2014, 04:07:18 pm by Stan »
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Offline jsidhu

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 5k is not really good money for a developer in the US.   That is absurd.  The average is 95k which is around 8k a month.   AVERAGE.

BTW. I'm not trying to insult anyone, but just be realistic.  Germany isn't that different from the US.  And for anyone working on Bitshares for significantly less than their market rate, a big THANK YOU from me.

You're talking about Bitshares as if it's Google or Microsoft. Startups do not pay "market rate". They pay below market rate because their goal is to build a profitable business and this requires working long hours for just enough money to survive.

If I were the CEO of a startup I'm not going to be focused on getting a fat salary. I'm going to be focused on launching the businesses and growing it. Bitshares cannot afford to pay developers 10k a month and it's only greed that allows anyone to think it can.

I'll repeat:
10k a month is greedy. [/b

Bring Bitshares up to 1 billion market cap and then we can start talking about 10k a month for delegates. 10k a month for developers not named Dan is ridiculous and that isn't any insult to any of the other developers.

Please do a basic web-search. You have no idea about what software devs are paid these days. 

Startups pay less because people are also paid in equity in addition to their salary.  We are past that stage even if it seems the same to you since people are paid in shares.

I didn't say anything about what is greedy or what isn't.  I'm just stating reality as a basis for this discussion.  Yes marketing Bitshares could bring in developers, but it is going to do so on the basis of charity by the employee or finding someone who lives in a country with a lower cost of living.

I find it fascinating that you expect people to work for less than they are worth then you call anyone who doesn't agree with that line of thinking greedy.  okey dokey whatever.

Having a discussion about how to hire developers is a good one.  It needs to be tied into expectations from multiple sides.  etc.
You are not factoring in income tax.. At 5k a month It is about the same as 8k a month in fiat.
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Offline bytemaster



 5k is not really good money for a developer in the US.   That is absurd.  The average is 95k which is around 8k a month.   AVERAGE.

BTW. I'm not trying to insult anyone, but just be realistic.  Germany isn't that different from the US.  And for anyone working on Bitshares for significantly less than their market rate, a big THANK YOU from me.

That is near the average pay of our team. 
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Offline Rune

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Part-time work evades the question how much a developer is worth, it does not answer the question.
I know the "delegate proposal" method is often cited, but it has some severe flaws, IMO:
1. You (not you personally, but you the DAC as a potential employer) cannot expect a skilled developer to make a massive investment into registering a delegate with a mere hope of being voted in and perhaps making a profit at some point in the future. I find the suggestion of the OP very reasonable, to create a delegate beforehand and decide afterwards whom and for what to pay using the delegate's earnings.
2. The method turns the original intent "lure top devs" into a much broader scope. A developer's job is generally to come up with a technical solution to a given problem. That's what developers are good at. But you are adding "come up with a project", "create and run a delegate" and "do self-marketing and lobbying to collect votes" into the mix. It will be very hard to find someone who excels at all of these. Again, the OP's suggestion makes this much simpler.

I guess the reality we have to face is that delegates are a completely new form of employment that cannot simply be subsistuted for traditional employment. I was actually convinced that a huge amount of current coin devs would jump ship almost instantly at the prospect of working for the blockchain for stable salary (and simply campaign for several delegates if they deserved higher pay). But the problem is that if a person isn't able to "self manage" as I'd call doing the things you described here (make a project, create and run a delegate, etc.) then they just cannot work as a delegate. In the long run when bitshares has gained network effect and delegates are big business, then we will start to see devs hired under delegate management just like we're used to in the traditional business world. Until then it'll mostly only be developers who are already a member of the community and who understand and can accept the new paradigm of delegates who will get "hired by the blockchain".

The sad truth is that this means paid delegates will create less of a marketing buzz than I expected because we still need to first convince the big name devs that bitshares is the future (and that they should proactively invest time and energy into understanding it so they can make money off it and support it).

Offline pc

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Assuming there is a need "to lure top devs" (of which I'm not convinced), I'll add a few  comments.
 
Wouldn't you be willing to do it part time for a single delegate? You could come up with some project you think needs to be done and then turn it into a delegate proposal. At first it would also need to be something you're also doing out of passion for crypto, and not just for payment (Like I imagine the situation was with PTS-DPOS). But over time as bitshares grows it could become a massive job and even potentially a massive business.

Part-time work evades the question how much a developer is worth, it does not answer the question.
I know the "delegate proposal" method is often cited, but it has some severe flaws, IMO:
1. You (not you personally, but you the DAC as a potential employer) cannot expect a skilled developer to make a massive investment into registering a delegate with a mere hope of being voted in and perhaps making a profit at some point in the future. I find the suggestion of the OP very reasonable, to create a delegate beforehand and decide afterwards whom and for what to pay using the delegate's earnings.
2. The method turns the original intent "lure top devs" into a much broader scope. A developer's job is generally to come up with a technical solution to a given problem. That's what developers are good at. But you are adding "come up with a project", "create and run a delegate" and "do self-marketing and lobbying to collect votes" into the mix. It will be very hard to find someone who excels at all of these. Again, the OP's suggestion makes this much simpler.

The answer in my opinion is simply not to hire expensive Germans if it's a situation where a Greek, Spanish, Chinese, Russian or American developer will do the same for less. I understand your point of view and I also would understand if I'm an American asking for $5k a month and someone in China would be comfortable on $2.5k a month. As a voter I will favor hiring developers who will do it for less money or who live in places of high unemployment.

That's of course perfectly understandable and reasonable. However, in reality this answer is not quite so simple, because the situation is not that you have a choice between equally skilled Germans, Americans, Russians, Greek or Chinese where the only difference is how much money they're asking. You only have very few skilled people available, and your choice is to pay market rates - or you don't get them.

Developers work for startups for 5k a month or sometimes even volunteer because the money to pay them doesn't exist yet. These developers work for the dream, the vision, and in many cases for shares which aren't worth very much when they started the job. These developers are rewarded when the share price rises and they become rich because the success of the business is what makes them rich.

I'm old enough to have witnessed the dotcom bubble around y2k. I have seen developers work their asses off for a few shares in a "new economy" startup, and 12 months later the company was broke and their health ruined. I'm not going to make that mistake - I'm willing to take a risk, but only a risk that I can manage. You'll most likely hear the same from other experienced developers. If you want them to "work for the dream" you need younger (and less experienced) developers.

If you pay developers 10k a month they will have no incentive to care about the business and you'll have developers who might not care as much about the vision as they care about making a quick buck. If developers understand how valuable BTS are they'd voluntarily sacrifice for lower pay knowing that it's better for their BTS holdings.

I always care very much about the business I'm working for. Most importantly because I want to continue working for them, and when the assignment ends some day I want to have a good reference in my portfolio to show to my next customer.
But even when I'm invested in a company that also pays me for my work, I make a very clear distinction between my work position and my shareholder position. My work is valuable independent from the number of shares I'm holding, and mixing payment for my work with the possible increase in the value of my shares is not acceptable. Obviously, every other shareholder profits from my work, too, without providing equivalent work themselves.

To be fair there is nothing stopping an American or anyone else from moving to China to live for a while as they work as a delegate. There are ways to get around these problems if the person truly wants to work for the blockchain but if they see it as just another job then perhaps they won't want to work in China or places even cheaper.

Erm. The thread title is about "luring top devs" into working for BitShares. This implies that developers are currently not knocking down your doors, or begging on their knees to be allowed to work for the DAC. Your implication that a "top dev" could be willing to move to china so he can afford to work for substandard payment is...unrealistic.
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Offline liondani

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There is an important logic to everything I said. So before developers shout me down I'll explain the logic.

The pay of developers or of any employee of a startup is supposed to be tied to the success or failure of the business. It's supposed to be a risk working for a startup vs working for an established company but also a chance to get rich.

Developers work for startups for 5k a month or sometimes even volunteer because the money to pay them doesn't exist yet. These developers work for the dream, the vision, and in many cases for shares which aren't worth very much when they started the job. These developers are rewarded when the share price rises and they become rich because the success of the business is what makes them rich.

If you pay developers 10k a month they will have no incentive to care about the business and you'll have developers who might not care as much about the vision as they care about making a quick buck. If developers understand how valuable BTS are they'd voluntarily sacrifice for lower pay knowing that it's better for their BTS holdings.
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Offline James212

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I think BitShares is probably more in need of a really good business consultant at this stage.

It could also use a good, general, guiding business plan. 


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Offline luckybit

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 5k is not really good money for a developer in the US.   That is absurd.  The average is 95k which is around 8k a month.   AVERAGE.

BTW. I'm not trying to insult anyone, but just be realistic.  Germany isn't that different from the US.  And for anyone working on Bitshares for significantly less than their market rate, a big THANK YOU from me.

You're talking about Bitshares as if it's Google or Microsoft. Startups do not pay "market rate". They pay below market rate because their goal is to build a profitable business and this requires working long hours for just enough money to survive.

If I were the CEO of a startup I'm not going to be focused on getting a fat salary. I'm going to be focused on launching the businesses and growing it. Bitshares cannot afford to pay developers 10k a month and it's only greed that allows anyone to think it can.

I'll repeat:
10k a month is greedy. [/b

Bring Bitshares up to 1 billion market cap and then we can start talking about 10k a month for delegates. 10k a month for developers not named Dan is ridiculous and that isn't any insult to any of the other developers.

Please do a basic web-search. You have no idea about what software devs are paid these days. 

Startups pay less because people are also paid in equity in addition to their salary.  We are past that stage even if it seems the same to you since people are paid in shares.

I didn't say anything about what is greedy or what isn't.  I'm just stating reality as a basis for this discussion.  Yes marketing Bitshares could bring in developers, but it is going to do so on the basis of charity by the employee or finding someone who lives in a country with a lower cost of living.

I find it fascinating that you expect people to work for less than they are worth then you call anyone who doesn't agree with that line of thinking greedy.  okey dokey whatever.

Having a discussion about how to hire developers is a good one.  It needs to be tied into expectations from multiple sides.  etc.
http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/beijing-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,7_IM997_KO8,25.htm

150,000 Chinese Yuan equals 24,116.34 US Dollar a year.
$2009 a month. So $5000 a month is fantastic for a person living in China and $2500 would actually be all they would need to make more than most software developers.

The solution? Hire Chinese developers and save around $8000 a month compared to hiring German or American developers.  The remaining $8000 could go to hiring 2 more developers or to marketing.

Think of Bitshares as a startup business and start thinking like a businessman and not an employee. Why would you hire developers who cost x5 more for the same work?

It is obvious that there is better value to be found elsewhere outside of Western countries, however that is not so simple either.  You have to find the developers and they have to be able to do things on their own.  I'd love to see Chinese web developers making services and voting in their delegate.

I think I made this observation elsewhere.. or considered it..  That being everyone's advice is 'hire the best for the least'.. and they say that as if they're telling people something possibly unknown.  I personally can't think of one thing more basic when hiring someone.

That is exactly what I expect to happen. Chinese people put most of the money into Bitshares and once their marketing side figures out how the delegate system works there are plenty of C++ programmers in China willing to work for that pay.

Honestly one of the good things about working for a blockchain is that you can move around and your job follows you. You can be an American working in China while the Bitshares company is growing and then once it reaches a point where you can get paid 10k a month or even more you can live in paradises which are far better than America.

It's just a matter of whether or not most Americans can see the hidden perks of having this kind of job. Maybe marketing should highlight those perks.
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Offline gamey

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 5k is not really good money for a developer in the US.   That is absurd.  The average is 95k which is around 8k a month.   AVERAGE.

BTW. I'm not trying to insult anyone, but just be realistic.  Germany isn't that different from the US.  And for anyone working on Bitshares for significantly less than their market rate, a big THANK YOU from me.

You're talking about Bitshares as if it's Google or Microsoft. Startups do not pay "market rate". They pay below market rate because their goal is to build a profitable business and this requires working long hours for just enough money to survive.

If I were the CEO of a startup I'm not going to be focused on getting a fat salary. I'm going to be focused on launching the businesses and growing it. Bitshares cannot afford to pay developers 10k a month and it's only greed that allows anyone to think it can.

I'll repeat:
10k a month is greedy. [/b

Bring Bitshares up to 1 billion market cap and then we can start talking about 10k a month for delegates. 10k a month for developers not named Dan is ridiculous and that isn't any insult to any of the other developers.

Please do a basic web-search. You have no idea about what software devs are paid these days. 

Startups pay less because people are also paid in equity in addition to their salary.  We are past that stage even if it seems the same to you since people are paid in shares.

I didn't say anything about what is greedy or what isn't.  I'm just stating reality as a basis for this discussion.  Yes marketing Bitshares could bring in developers, but it is going to do so on the basis of charity by the employee or finding someone who lives in a country with a lower cost of living.

I find it fascinating that you expect people to work for less than they are worth then you call anyone who doesn't agree with that line of thinking greedy.  okey dokey whatever.

Having a discussion about how to hire developers is a good one.  It needs to be tied into expectations from multiple sides.  etc.
http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/beijing-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,7_IM997_KO8,25.htm

150,000 Chinese Yuan equals 24,116.34 US Dollar a year.
$2009 a month. So $5000 a month is fantastic for a person living in China and $2500 would actually be all they would need to make more than most software developers.

The solution? Hire Chinese developers and save around $8000 a month compared to hiring German or American developers.  The remaining $8000 could go to hiring 2 more developers or to marketing.

Think of Bitshares as a startup business and start thinking like a businessman and not an employee. Why would you hire developers who cost x5 more for the same work?

It is obvious that there is better value to be found elsewhere outside of Western countries, however that is not so simple either.  You have to find the developers and they have to be able to do things on their own.  I'd love to see Chinese web developers making services and voting in their delegate.

I think I made this observation elsewhere.. or considered it..  That being everyone's advice is 'hire the best for the least'.. and they say that as if they're telling people something possibly unknown.  I personally can't think of one thing more basic when hiring someone.
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Offline luckybit

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 5k is not really good money for a developer in the US.   That is absurd.  The average is 95k which is around 8k a month.   AVERAGE.

BTW. I'm not trying to insult anyone, but just be realistic.  Germany isn't that different from the US.  And for anyone working on Bitshares for significantly less than their market rate, a big THANK YOU from me.

You're talking about Bitshares as if it's Google or Microsoft. Startups do not pay "market rate". They pay below market rate because their goal is to build a profitable business and this requires working long hours for just enough money to survive.

If I were the CEO of a startup I'm not going to be focused on getting a fat salary. I'm going to be focused on launching the businesses and growing it. Bitshares cannot afford to pay developers 10k a month and it's only greed that allows anyone to think it can.

I'll repeat:
10k a month is greedy. [/b

Bring Bitshares up to 1 billion market cap and then we can start talking about 10k a month for delegates. 10k a month for developers not named Dan is ridiculous and that isn't any insult to any of the other developers.

Please do a basic web-search. You have no idea about what software devs are paid these days. 

Startups pay less because people are also paid in equity in addition to their salary.  We are past that stage even if it seems the same to you since people are paid in shares.

I didn't say anything about what is greedy or what isn't.  I'm just stating reality as a basis for this discussion.  Yes marketing Bitshares could bring in developers, but it is going to do so on the basis of charity by the employee or finding someone who lives in a country with a lower cost of living.

I find it fascinating that you expect people to work for less than they are worth then you call anyone who doesn't agree with that line of thinking greedy.  okey dokey whatever.

Having a discussion about how to hire developers is a good one.  It needs to be tied into expectations from multiple sides.  etc.
http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/beijing-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,7_IM997_KO8,25.htm

150,000 Chinese Yuan equals 24,116.34 US Dollar a year.
$2009 a month. So $5000 a month is fantastic for a person living in China and $2500 would actually be all they would need to make more than most software developers.

The solution? Hire Chinese developers and save around $8000 a month compared to hiring German or American developers.  The remaining $8000 could go to hiring 2 more developers or to marketing.

Think of Bitshares as a startup business and start thinking like a businessman and not an employee. Why would you hire developers who cost x5 more for the same work?

And no I don't think Bitshares is out of the startup stage. It's not even at 1.0 yet and hasn't even reached 1 billion dollar market cap. WhatsApp has a higher market cap and it's just a chat program. 

To be fair there is nothing stopping an American or anyone else from moving to China to live for a while as they work as a delegate. There are ways to get around these problems if the person truly wants to work for the blockchain but if they see it as just another job then perhaps they won't want to work in China or places even cheaper.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2014, 08:56:13 am by luckybit »
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Offline gamey

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 5k is not really good money for a developer in the US.   That is absurd.  The average is 95k which is around 8k a month.   AVERAGE.

BTW. I'm not trying to insult anyone, but just be realistic.  Germany isn't that different from the US.  And for anyone working on Bitshares for significantly less than their market rate, a big THANK YOU from me.

You're talking about Bitshares as if it's Google or Microsoft. Startups do not pay "market rate". They pay below market rate because their goal is to build a profitable business and this requires working long hours for just enough money to survive.

If I were the CEO of a startup I'm not going to be focused on getting a fat salary. I'm going to be focused on launching the businesses and growing it. Bitshares cannot afford to pay developers 10k a month and it's only greed that allows anyone to think it can.

I'll repeat:
10k a month is greedy. [/b

Bring Bitshares up to 1 billion market cap and then we can start talking about 10k a month for delegates. 10k a month for developers not named Dan is ridiculous and that isn't any insult to any of the other developers.

Please do a basic web-search. You have no idea about what software devs are paid these days. 

Startups pay less because people are also paid in equity in addition to their salary.  We are past that stage even if it seems the same to you since people are paid in shares.

I didn't say anything about what is greedy or what isn't.  I'm just stating reality as a basis for this discussion.  Yes marketing Bitshares could bring in developers, but it is going to do so on the basis of charity by the employee or finding someone who lives in a country with a lower cost of living.

I find it fascinating that you expect people to work for less than they are worth then you call anyone who doesn't agree with that line of thinking greedy.  okey dokey whatever.

Having a discussion about how to hire developers is a good one.  It needs to be tied into expectations from multiple sides.  etc.
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Offline luckybit

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There is an important logic to everything I said. So before developers shout me down I'll explain the logic.

The pay of developers or of any employee of a startup is supposed to be tied to the success or failure of the business. It's supposed to be a risk working for a startup vs working for an established company but also a chance to get rich.

Developers work for startups for 5k a month or sometimes even volunteer because the money to pay them doesn't exist yet. These developers work for the dream, the vision, and in many cases for shares which aren't worth very much when they started the job. These developers are rewarded when the share price rises and they become rich because the success of the business is what makes them rich.

If you pay developers 10k a month they will have no incentive to care about the business and you'll have developers who might not care as much about the vision as they care about making a quick buck. If developers understand how valuable BTS are they'd voluntarily sacrifice for lower pay knowing that it's better for their BTS holdings.
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Offline luckybit

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 5k is not really good money for a developer in the US.   That is absurd.  The average is 95k which is around 8k a month.   AVERAGE.

BTW. I'm not trying to insult anyone, but just be realistic.  Germany isn't that different from the US.  And for anyone working on Bitshares for significantly less than their market rate, a big THANK YOU from me.

You're talking about Bitshares as if it's Google or Microsoft. Startups do not pay "market rate". They pay below market rate because their goal is to build a profitable business and this requires working long hours for just enough money to survive. When you say the average you're not saying whether it's the average in China, in Spain, in Turkey, in India, or globally so your figures don't really matter when the blockchain has a global pool to choose from and now just expensive developers from Silicon Valley.

If I were the CEO of a startup I'm not going to be focused on getting a fat salary. I'm going to be focused on launching the businesses and growing it. Bitshares cannot afford to pay developers 10k a month and it's only greed that allows anyone to think it can.

I'll repeat:
10k a month is greedy.

Bring Bitshares up to 1 billion market cap and then we can start talking about 10k a month for delegates. 10k a month for developers not named Dan is ridiculous and that isn't any insult to any of the other developers.

There is a time to talk about 10k a month for developers but that time isn't right now.  When the Bitshares marketcap rises to allow for it to make economic sense then discuss 10k a month for developers. And why not 10k a month for the marketers too if they manage to bring the market cap so high.

« Last Edit: December 26, 2014, 08:32:48 am by luckybit »
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The problem is more about the pay I suspect.  That and possibly language preference.  Not everyone does C++. 

While you used to say 25k-30k a month IIRC, 5k is too low. Average CS graduate gets over that and there are a lot of average CS degreed average programmers out there.

I don't think the price is so important because a lot of people don't have jobs but know C++. It's more you have to find the people who have no job but who know C++ along with a proven track record which is different.

Lots of students and academics can code. Few have worked on anything like Bitshares. Rock star developers are what you want and you can get them if the marketing is very good.

Let me approach this from the other side.  I'm a freelance software developer, and I'm available for hire. I wrote my first program in '83 and acquired the german equivalent of a CS master in '96.

I do have a proven track record - I did most of the under-the-hood work for PTS-DPOS. For example, I designed and implemented the method for claiming sharedrop balances securely without the need to import private keys. I did all the required work within a couple of weeks, without any prior knowledge of the BTS- or PTS-PoW codebases. I think this demonstrates my analytical skills, basic knowledge of crypto methods and protocols, skills as software designer and skills as a C++ coder.

Leaving the politics of PTS-DPOS aside, how much would the DAC be willing to pay for me (or anyone with my skills) as a full-time developer?

Hints: I live in germany, I have to feed a family, I have to pay taxes, and I wouldn't do it for 5k USD per month.

Would be good if you can act as part time and use the fee as a supplementary income.

If BTS, as we all hope, becomes massive then the pays may become enough for full time jobs. We would be more inclined to vote for employees who have already been with us than somebody new, so joining up now would help you.

Offline gamey

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 5k is not really good money for a developer in the US.   That is absurd.  The average is 95k which is around 8k a month.   AVERAGE.

BTW. I'm not trying to insult anyone, but just be realistic.  Germany isn't that different from the US.  And for anyone working on Bitshares for significantly less than their market rate, a big THANK YOU from me.
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Offline luckybit

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The problem is more about the pay I suspect.  That and possibly language preference.  Not everyone does C++. 

While you used to say 25k-30k a month IIRC, 5k is too low. Average CS graduate gets over that and there are a lot of average CS degreed average programmers out there.

I don't think the price is so important because a lot of people don't have jobs but know C++. It's more you have to find the people who have no job but who know C++ along with a proven track record which is different.

Lots of students and academics can code. Few have worked on anything like Bitshares. Rock star developers are what you want and you can get them if the marketing is very good.

Let me approach this from the other side.  I'm a freelance software developer, and I'm available for hire. I wrote my first program in '83 and acquired the german equivalent of a CS master in '96.

I do have a proven track record - I did most of the under-the-hood work for PTS-DPOS. For example, I designed and implemented the method for claiming sharedrop balances securely without the need to import private keys. I did all the required work within a couple of weeks, without any prior knowledge of the BTS- or PTS-PoW codebases. I think this demonstrates my analytical skills, basic knowledge of crypto methods and protocols, skills as software designer and skills as a C++ coder.

Leaving the politics of PTS-DPOS aside, how much would the DAC be willing to pay for me (or anyone with my skills) as a full-time developer?

Hints: I live in germany, I have to feed a family, I have to pay taxes, and I wouldn't do it for 5k USD per month.

Germany has a better economy with far lower rate of unemployment than anywhere else. The Euro is also stronger than the dollar. $5k a month is really good money for a developer in the United States but it's not good when it's $5k a month in Euro to a German.

The answer in my opinion is simply not to hire expensive Germans if it's a situation where a Greek, Spanish, Chinese, Russian or American developer will do the same for less. I understand your point of view and I also would understand if I'm an American asking for $5k a month and someone in China would be comfortable on $2.5k a month. As a voter I will favor hiring developers who will do it for less money or who live in places of high unemployment.

But I don't think any developer needs $10k a month. That is more than most developers get anywhere in the world. It might be good for marketing and perhaps Bytemaster could ask for $10k a month but why would anyone else demand that? Put it this way when Apple or Microsoft first started did developers get paid?

Typically startups don't pay very much. It's a lot of work and a lot of the time developers will volunteer to work for startups getting paid in shares because they really believe in the project. I think those sort of developers are the developers we should try to attract but at the same time it has to pay enough for people to live.

I think the best way to focus marketing is to target parts of the world where you have a highly educated young skilled unemployed population. Greece, Spain, Russia, the UK, are all examples. There are enough unemployed college graduates in these countries that you could train some of them to develop for Bitshares.

As far as track record goes in that area we have two options. Either we find unemployed college graduates with interest and talent who can be trained or we hire people with a track record already. If it costs more to train new people then hire the people with a track record but if it is cheaper to train new people it makes sense to hire new people.

« Last Edit: December 26, 2014, 08:15:18 am by luckybit »
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Offline gamey

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Problem is developers have to be convinced bitshares is a better system than whatever they are already working on. It's a chicken an egg problem because once top devs start "defecting" we will see more and more joining us. The biggest issue is really getting the first couple of devs, and I am happy to see initiatives working towards this, but I don't think vitalik should be the first target. He probably won't join us until bitshares had begun to completely dominate all competition.

The problem is more about the pay I suspect.  That and possibly language preference.  Not everyone does C++. 

While you used to say 25k-30k a month IIRC, 5k is too low. Average CS graduate gets over that and there are a lot of average CS degreed average programmers out there.

I don't think the price is so important because a lot of people don't have jobs but know C++. It's more you have to find the people who have no job but who know C++ along with a proven track record which is different.

Lots of students and academics can code. Few have worked on anything like Bitshares. Rock star developers are what you want and you can get them if the marketing is very good.

yea, price isn't important because people want to work far under market wage.  Just because someone 'knows C++' doesn't mean they are that valuable.  You could find a genius coder who never touched C++ who would have far more value than someone who "knows C++". 

Price does matter.  You basic argument is that competent people with IQ's 120+ will work partially for charity if the marketing is right.  I don't begin to understand why you think this. 

I love reading this forum and hearing gems of wisdom.. which all boil down to.. "We want the best talent for the least amount of money".  The people who give us these gems seem to think they are saying something of value. 

I mean... You honestly think that the people with a 'proven track record' that know C++ can't find a job?  Ok... well...  I guess Bitshares must already be on the moon.

Best case is you find a decent dev who knows C++ and is not in a first world country and loves crypto projects.

Although I may sound very negative my goal is just to make people think in a realistic fashion.

Even C++ programmers have to communicate with the core team which is quite difficult to do.  I don't even think they need C++ devs anymore.

The conversation should be based more around expectations than wishful thinking.

BTW PC is a badass.
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Offline fluxer555

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Leaving the politics of PTS-DPOS aside, how much would the DAC be willing to pay for me (or anyone with my skills) as a full-time developer?

Hints: I live in germany, I have to feed a family, I have to pay taxes, and I wouldn't do it for 5k USD per month.

How about 10k per month?

Offline Rune

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The problem is more about the pay I suspect.  That and possibly language preference.  Not everyone does C++. 

While you used to say 25k-30k a month IIRC, 5k is too low. Average CS graduate gets over that and there are a lot of average CS degreed average programmers out there.

I don't think the price is so important because a lot of people don't have jobs but know C++. It's more you have to find the people who have no job but who know C++ along with a proven track record which is different.

Lots of students and academics can code. Few have worked on anything like Bitshares. Rock star developers are what you want and you can get them if the marketing is very good.

Let me approach this from the other side.  I'm a freelance software developer, and I'm available for hire. I wrote my first program in '83 and acquired the german equivalent of a CS master in '96.

I do have a proven track record - I did most of the under-the-hood work for PTS-DPOS. For example, I designed and implemented the method for claiming sharedrop balances securely without the need to import private keys. I did all the required work within a couple of weeks, without any prior knowledge of the BTS- or PTS-PoW codebases. I think this demonstrates my analytical skills, basic knowledge of crypto methods and protocols, skills as software designer and skills as a C++ coder.

Leaving the politics of PTS-DPOS aside, how much would the DAC be willing to pay for me (or anyone with my skills) as a full-time developer?

Hints: I live in germany, I have to feed a family, I have to pay taxes, and I wouldn't do it for 5k USD per month.

Wouldn't you be willing to do it part time for a single delegate? You could come up with some project you think needs to be done and then turn it into a delegate proposal. At first it would also need to be something you're also doing out of passion for crypto, and not just for payment (Like I imagine the situation was with PTS-DPOS). But over time as bitshares grows it could become a massive job and even potentially a massive business.

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The problem is more about the pay I suspect.  That and possibly language preference.  Not everyone does C++. 

While you used to say 25k-30k a month IIRC, 5k is too low. Average CS graduate gets over that and there are a lot of average CS degreed average programmers out there.

I don't think the price is so important because a lot of people don't have jobs but know C++. It's more you have to find the people who have no job but who know C++ along with a proven track record which is different.

Lots of students and academics can code. Few have worked on anything like Bitshares. Rock star developers are what you want and you can get them if the marketing is very good.

Let me approach this from the other side.  I'm a freelance software developer, and I'm available for hire. I wrote my first program in '83 and acquired the german equivalent of a CS master in '96.

I do have a proven track record - I did most of the under-the-hood work for PTS-DPOS. For example, I designed and implemented the method for claiming sharedrop balances securely without the need to import private keys. I did all the required work within a couple of weeks, without any prior knowledge of the BTS- or PTS-PoW codebases. I think this demonstrates my analytical skills, basic knowledge of crypto methods and protocols, skills as software designer and skills as a C++ coder.

Leaving the politics of PTS-DPOS aside, how much would the DAC be willing to pay for me (or anyone with my skills) as a full-time developer?

Hints: I live in germany, I have to feed a family, I have to pay taxes, and I wouldn't do it for 5k USD per month.
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Offline luckybit

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I think BitShares is probably more in need of a really good business consultant at this stage.

It could also use a good, general, guiding business plan. 

If BTS gets the PR & vision right though, I think there will be a lot of cachet and kudos associated with being a known delegate that will help attract development talent for less than market value too.

Bitshares needs around 100 developers. The competition right now is for minds and the developing talent is the most precious early on. Once we have scripting then it will be about marketing and partnerships.

There's not a chance in hell we will have scripting before ethereum is launched and popular among devs with a good toolset. We need infrastructure devs more than blockchain devs. The make-or-break app (bitassets) is already done.

It doesn't have to be before Ethereum is launched. I don't think being first is as important as doing it best. I do know that Ethereum could catch early momentum by being first but it really depends on a lot of variables.

I think Bitshares needs scripting to be competitive with Ethereum even if Ethereum is first.

How do you see this playing out and what sort of infrastructure do you think is needed? Gateways?
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I think BitShares is probably more in need of a really good business consultant at this stage.

It could also use a good, general, guiding business plan. 

If BTS gets the PR & vision right though, I think there will be a lot of cachet and kudos associated with being a known delegate that will help attract development talent for less than market value too.

Bitshares needs around 100 developers. The competition right now is for minds and the developing talent is the most precious early on. Once we have scripting then it will be about marketing and partnerships.

There's not a chance in hell we will have scripting before ethereum is launched and popular among devs with a good toolset. We need infrastructure devs more than blockchain devs. The make-or-break app (bitassets) is already done.
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Offline luckybit

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I think BitShares is probably more in need of a really good business consultant at this stage.

It could also use a good, general, guiding business plan. 

If BTS gets the PR & vision right though, I think there will be a lot of cachet and kudos associated with being a known delegate that will help attract development talent for less than market value too.

Bitshares needs around 100 developers. The competition right now is for minds and the developing talent is the most precious early on. Once we have scripting then it will be about marketing and partnerships.
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Offline luckybit

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Problem is developers have to be convinced bitshares is a better system than whatever they are already working on. It's a chicken an egg problem because once top devs start "defecting" we will see more and more joining us. The biggest issue is really getting the first couple of devs, and I am happy to see initiatives working towards this, but I don't think vitalik should be the first target. He probably won't join us until bitshares had begun to completely dominate all competition.

The problem is more about the pay I suspect.  That and possibly language preference.  Not everyone does C++. 

While you used to say 25k-30k a month IIRC, 5k is too low. Average CS graduate gets over that and there are a lot of average CS degreed average programmers out there.

I don't think the price is so important because a lot of people don't have jobs but know C++. It's more you have to find the people who have no job but who know C++ along with a proven track record which is different.

Lots of students and academics can code. Few have worked on anything like Bitshares. Rock star developers are what you want and you can get them if the marketing is very good.
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Offline Empirical1.1

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I agree, if we could advertise that a single delegate paid 10k it would be a lot easier to get attention. We have precedence for a single person running several paid delegates though, so it should be possible for a well established bitcoin/altcoin dev like Taaki or Todd (my two favorite "targets") to get enough delegates voted in for them to receive a fair market rate salary (especially considering the immediate market cap benefit their announcement would give us). Problem is that we can't simply approach them and "offer" such a position. They still publicly have to do a lot of work themselves to get the votes, and it won't really be possible to do behind-the-scenes negotiations and then only announce the deal when it's already closed.


I would be interested in testing this. I think BTS should attempt to get some developer on a three month trial/contract and view how much value the market gives moves like that.

I think big BitAsset announcements are far more value changing though. BTC38 & BitCNY was absolutely huge, it was up 20% at one point I think. We weren't able to judge how valuable that was because it coincided with the big fork. I think that announcement alone could have really marked a significant turning point in BTS growth otherwise.

Offline Rune

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Problem is developers have to be convinced bitshares is a better system than whatever they are already working on. It's a chicken an egg problem because once top devs start "defecting" we will see more and more joining us. The biggest issue is really getting the first couple of devs, and I am happy to see initiatives working towards this, but I don't think vitalik should be the first target. He probably won't join us until bitshares had begun to completely dominate all competition.

The problem is more about the pay I suspect.  That and possibly language preference.  Not everyone does C++. 

While you used to say 25k-30k a month IIRC, 5k is too low. Average CS graduate gets over that and there are a lot of average CS degreed average programmers out there.

I agree, if we could advertise that a single delegate paid 10k it would be a lot easier to get attention. We have precedence for a single person running several paid delegates though, so it should be possible for a well established bitcoin/altcoin dev like Taaki or Todd (my two favorite "targets") to get enough delegates voted in for them to receive a fair market rate salary (especially considering the immediate market cap benefit their announcement would give us). Problem is that we can't simply approach them and "offer" such a position. They still publicly have to do a lot of work themselves to get the votes, and it won't really be possible to do behind-the-scenes negotiations and then only announce the deal when it's already closed.

Regarding the language, do you think it would be an advantage if we hired a respected bitcoin dev to rewrite the entire client in a different language, like Taaki did with libbitcoin for bitcoin back in the day? (don't even know if that is feasible for bitshares or if it's too complex)

I have a feeling this could be one of those things that would really make bitcoiners trust bitshares a lot more, since they would be able to use software that was written by one of their own, and could open up the project to a lot more developers in the long term.

Offline Empirical1.1

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I think BitShares is probably more in need of a really good business consultant at this stage.

It could also use a good, general, guiding business plan. 

If BTS gets the PR & vision right though, I think there will be a lot of cachet and kudos associated with being a known delegate that will help attract development talent for less than market value too.

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I am sure the time where talented devs will beg for a delegate slot on our blockchain/ecosystem is nearer than anybody can imagine/think right now...

Offline gamey

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Problem is developers have to be convinced bitshares is a better system than whatever they are already working on. It's a chicken an egg problem because once top devs start "defecting" we will see more and more joining us. The biggest issue is really getting the first couple of devs, and I am happy to see initiatives working towards this, but I don't think vitalik should be the first target. He probably won't join us until bitshares had begun to completely dominate all competition.

The problem is more about the pay I suspect.  That and possibly language preference.  Not everyone does C++. 

While you used to say 25k-30k a month IIRC, 5k is too low. Average CS graduate gets over that and there are a lot of average CS degreed average programmers out there.
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Offline Rune

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Problem is developers have to be convinced bitshares is a better system than whatever they are already working on. It's a chicken an egg problem because once top devs start "defecting" we will see more and more joining us. The biggest issue is really getting the first couple of devs, and I am happy to see initiatives working towards this, but I don't think vitalik should be the first target. He probably won't join us until bitshares had begun to completely dominate all competition.

Offline fluxer555

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All this talk about making a delegate to sponsor Vitalik as got me thinking of a way we can make joining BitShares irresistible for any dev we want badly enough.

1. A 'tech delegate' creates a 100% delegate for a dev we want to work for BitShares (like Vitalik)
2. The tech delegate announces this creation, and publicly posts "If you would like to support this developer to be hired by BTS, then vote now!". This tech delegate also posts his proposed 'signing terms' (which I will explain in step 5.)
3. Shareholders vote in delegate. The first month of pay is used to pay for registration fee.
4. Pay after the first month is then contributed to the 'signing term' funds.
5. After sufficient funds have been raised, a representative (possibly the tech delegate) contacts the dev and offers them the position, along with the signing terms.

A signing term is a 'deal package' to the dev to make the position more attractive. For example, the simplest of signing terms could be communicated to the dev as,

"We have a delegate already producing blocks for you, at a rate or $5000 per month. They will be burned until you decide you would like to join us."

Or, we could wait awhile, and build up a signing bonus:

"We have a delegate already producing blocks for you at a rate of $5000 per month. Additionally if you decide to work for us, you will get a $15,000 bonus after your first month of contributing to our ecosystem."

Or the bonus could be vested.

Or we could offer the delegate to more than one person, along with the bonus, and the first person to sign on gets it.

Or *insert your creative signing terms here*.

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I propose we create a delegate whose purpose is to hire Vitalik. Not a 'sponsor' or any charity bullshit. After paying back the registration fee, Every month up to 3 months worth of pay is saved and given to him as a bonus just for joining us. The rest is burned.

What do you think?
« Last Edit: December 24, 2014, 06:16:26 pm by fluxer555 »