Author Topic: How to lure top devs into being hired by BitShares  (Read 9820 times)

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Offline pc

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Assuming there is a need "to lure top devs" (of which I'm not convinced), I'll add a few  comments.
 
Wouldn't you be willing to do it part time for a single delegate? You could come up with some project you think needs to be done and then turn it into a delegate proposal. At first it would also need to be something you're also doing out of passion for crypto, and not just for payment (Like I imagine the situation was with PTS-DPOS). But over time as bitshares grows it could become a massive job and even potentially a massive business.

Part-time work evades the question how much a developer is worth, it does not answer the question.
I know the "delegate proposal" method is often cited, but it has some severe flaws, IMO:
1. You (not you personally, but you the DAC as a potential employer) cannot expect a skilled developer to make a massive investment into registering a delegate with a mere hope of being voted in and perhaps making a profit at some point in the future. I find the suggestion of the OP very reasonable, to create a delegate beforehand and decide afterwards whom and for what to pay using the delegate's earnings.
2. The method turns the original intent "lure top devs" into a much broader scope. A developer's job is generally to come up with a technical solution to a given problem. That's what developers are good at. But you are adding "come up with a project", "create and run a delegate" and "do self-marketing and lobbying to collect votes" into the mix. It will be very hard to find someone who excels at all of these. Again, the OP's suggestion makes this much simpler.

The answer in my opinion is simply not to hire expensive Germans if it's a situation where a Greek, Spanish, Chinese, Russian or American developer will do the same for less. I understand your point of view and I also would understand if I'm an American asking for $5k a month and someone in China would be comfortable on $2.5k a month. As a voter I will favor hiring developers who will do it for less money or who live in places of high unemployment.

That's of course perfectly understandable and reasonable. However, in reality this answer is not quite so simple, because the situation is not that you have a choice between equally skilled Germans, Americans, Russians, Greek or Chinese where the only difference is how much money they're asking. You only have very few skilled people available, and your choice is to pay market rates - or you don't get them.

Developers work for startups for 5k a month or sometimes even volunteer because the money to pay them doesn't exist yet. These developers work for the dream, the vision, and in many cases for shares which aren't worth very much when they started the job. These developers are rewarded when the share price rises and they become rich because the success of the business is what makes them rich.

I'm old enough to have witnessed the dotcom bubble around y2k. I have seen developers work their asses off for a few shares in a "new economy" startup, and 12 months later the company was broke and their health ruined. I'm not going to make that mistake - I'm willing to take a risk, but only a risk that I can manage. You'll most likely hear the same from other experienced developers. If you want them to "work for the dream" you need younger (and less experienced) developers.

If you pay developers 10k a month they will have no incentive to care about the business and you'll have developers who might not care as much about the vision as they care about making a quick buck. If developers understand how valuable BTS are they'd voluntarily sacrifice for lower pay knowing that it's better for their BTS holdings.

I always care very much about the business I'm working for. Most importantly because I want to continue working for them, and when the assignment ends some day I want to have a good reference in my portfolio to show to my next customer.
But even when I'm invested in a company that also pays me for my work, I make a very clear distinction between my work position and my shareholder position. My work is valuable independent from the number of shares I'm holding, and mixing payment for my work with the possible increase in the value of my shares is not acceptable. Obviously, every other shareholder profits from my work, too, without providing equivalent work themselves.

To be fair there is nothing stopping an American or anyone else from moving to China to live for a while as they work as a delegate. There are ways to get around these problems if the person truly wants to work for the blockchain but if they see it as just another job then perhaps they won't want to work in China or places even cheaper.

Erm. The thread title is about "luring top devs" into working for BitShares. This implies that developers are currently not knocking down your doors, or begging on their knees to be allowed to work for the DAC. Your implication that a "top dev" could be willing to move to china so he can afford to work for substandard payment is...unrealistic.
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Offline liondani

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There is an important logic to everything I said. So before developers shout me down I'll explain the logic.

The pay of developers or of any employee of a startup is supposed to be tied to the success or failure of the business. It's supposed to be a risk working for a startup vs working for an established company but also a chance to get rich.

Developers work for startups for 5k a month or sometimes even volunteer because the money to pay them doesn't exist yet. These developers work for the dream, the vision, and in many cases for shares which aren't worth very much when they started the job. These developers are rewarded when the share price rises and they become rich because the success of the business is what makes them rich.

If you pay developers 10k a month they will have no incentive to care about the business and you'll have developers who might not care as much about the vision as they care about making a quick buck. If developers understand how valuable BTS are they'd voluntarily sacrifice for lower pay knowing that it's better for their BTS holdings.
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Offline James212

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I think BitShares is probably more in need of a really good business consultant at this stage.

It could also use a good, general, guiding business plan. 


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Offline luckybit

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 5k is not really good money for a developer in the US.   That is absurd.  The average is 95k which is around 8k a month.   AVERAGE.

BTW. I'm not trying to insult anyone, but just be realistic.  Germany isn't that different from the US.  And for anyone working on Bitshares for significantly less than their market rate, a big THANK YOU from me.

You're talking about Bitshares as if it's Google or Microsoft. Startups do not pay "market rate". They pay below market rate because their goal is to build a profitable business and this requires working long hours for just enough money to survive.

If I were the CEO of a startup I'm not going to be focused on getting a fat salary. I'm going to be focused on launching the businesses and growing it. Bitshares cannot afford to pay developers 10k a month and it's only greed that allows anyone to think it can.

I'll repeat:
10k a month is greedy. [/b

Bring Bitshares up to 1 billion market cap and then we can start talking about 10k a month for delegates. 10k a month for developers not named Dan is ridiculous and that isn't any insult to any of the other developers.

Please do a basic web-search. You have no idea about what software devs are paid these days. 

Startups pay less because people are also paid in equity in addition to their salary.  We are past that stage even if it seems the same to you since people are paid in shares.

I didn't say anything about what is greedy or what isn't.  I'm just stating reality as a basis for this discussion.  Yes marketing Bitshares could bring in developers, but it is going to do so on the basis of charity by the employee or finding someone who lives in a country with a lower cost of living.

I find it fascinating that you expect people to work for less than they are worth then you call anyone who doesn't agree with that line of thinking greedy.  okey dokey whatever.

Having a discussion about how to hire developers is a good one.  It needs to be tied into expectations from multiple sides.  etc.
http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/beijing-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,7_IM997_KO8,25.htm

150,000 Chinese Yuan equals 24,116.34 US Dollar a year.
$2009 a month. So $5000 a month is fantastic for a person living in China and $2500 would actually be all they would need to make more than most software developers.

The solution? Hire Chinese developers and save around $8000 a month compared to hiring German or American developers.  The remaining $8000 could go to hiring 2 more developers or to marketing.

Think of Bitshares as a startup business and start thinking like a businessman and not an employee. Why would you hire developers who cost x5 more for the same work?

It is obvious that there is better value to be found elsewhere outside of Western countries, however that is not so simple either.  You have to find the developers and they have to be able to do things on their own.  I'd love to see Chinese web developers making services and voting in their delegate.

I think I made this observation elsewhere.. or considered it..  That being everyone's advice is 'hire the best for the least'.. and they say that as if they're telling people something possibly unknown.  I personally can't think of one thing more basic when hiring someone.

That is exactly what I expect to happen. Chinese people put most of the money into Bitshares and once their marketing side figures out how the delegate system works there are plenty of C++ programmers in China willing to work for that pay.

Honestly one of the good things about working for a blockchain is that you can move around and your job follows you. You can be an American working in China while the Bitshares company is growing and then once it reaches a point where you can get paid 10k a month or even more you can live in paradises which are far better than America.

It's just a matter of whether or not most Americans can see the hidden perks of having this kind of job. Maybe marketing should highlight those perks.
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Offline gamey

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 5k is not really good money for a developer in the US.   That is absurd.  The average is 95k which is around 8k a month.   AVERAGE.

BTW. I'm not trying to insult anyone, but just be realistic.  Germany isn't that different from the US.  And for anyone working on Bitshares for significantly less than their market rate, a big THANK YOU from me.

You're talking about Bitshares as if it's Google or Microsoft. Startups do not pay "market rate". They pay below market rate because their goal is to build a profitable business and this requires working long hours for just enough money to survive.

If I were the CEO of a startup I'm not going to be focused on getting a fat salary. I'm going to be focused on launching the businesses and growing it. Bitshares cannot afford to pay developers 10k a month and it's only greed that allows anyone to think it can.

I'll repeat:
10k a month is greedy. [/b

Bring Bitshares up to 1 billion market cap and then we can start talking about 10k a month for delegates. 10k a month for developers not named Dan is ridiculous and that isn't any insult to any of the other developers.

Please do a basic web-search. You have no idea about what software devs are paid these days. 

Startups pay less because people are also paid in equity in addition to their salary.  We are past that stage even if it seems the same to you since people are paid in shares.

I didn't say anything about what is greedy or what isn't.  I'm just stating reality as a basis for this discussion.  Yes marketing Bitshares could bring in developers, but it is going to do so on the basis of charity by the employee or finding someone who lives in a country with a lower cost of living.

I find it fascinating that you expect people to work for less than they are worth then you call anyone who doesn't agree with that line of thinking greedy.  okey dokey whatever.

Having a discussion about how to hire developers is a good one.  It needs to be tied into expectations from multiple sides.  etc.
http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/beijing-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,7_IM997_KO8,25.htm

150,000 Chinese Yuan equals 24,116.34 US Dollar a year.
$2009 a month. So $5000 a month is fantastic for a person living in China and $2500 would actually be all they would need to make more than most software developers.

The solution? Hire Chinese developers and save around $8000 a month compared to hiring German or American developers.  The remaining $8000 could go to hiring 2 more developers or to marketing.

Think of Bitshares as a startup business and start thinking like a businessman and not an employee. Why would you hire developers who cost x5 more for the same work?

It is obvious that there is better value to be found elsewhere outside of Western countries, however that is not so simple either.  You have to find the developers and they have to be able to do things on their own.  I'd love to see Chinese web developers making services and voting in their delegate.

I think I made this observation elsewhere.. or considered it..  That being everyone's advice is 'hire the best for the least'.. and they say that as if they're telling people something possibly unknown.  I personally can't think of one thing more basic when hiring someone.
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Offline luckybit

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 5k is not really good money for a developer in the US.   That is absurd.  The average is 95k which is around 8k a month.   AVERAGE.

BTW. I'm not trying to insult anyone, but just be realistic.  Germany isn't that different from the US.  And for anyone working on Bitshares for significantly less than their market rate, a big THANK YOU from me.

You're talking about Bitshares as if it's Google or Microsoft. Startups do not pay "market rate". They pay below market rate because their goal is to build a profitable business and this requires working long hours for just enough money to survive.

If I were the CEO of a startup I'm not going to be focused on getting a fat salary. I'm going to be focused on launching the businesses and growing it. Bitshares cannot afford to pay developers 10k a month and it's only greed that allows anyone to think it can.

I'll repeat:
10k a month is greedy. [/b

Bring Bitshares up to 1 billion market cap and then we can start talking about 10k a month for delegates. 10k a month for developers not named Dan is ridiculous and that isn't any insult to any of the other developers.

Please do a basic web-search. You have no idea about what software devs are paid these days. 

Startups pay less because people are also paid in equity in addition to their salary.  We are past that stage even if it seems the same to you since people are paid in shares.

I didn't say anything about what is greedy or what isn't.  I'm just stating reality as a basis for this discussion.  Yes marketing Bitshares could bring in developers, but it is going to do so on the basis of charity by the employee or finding someone who lives in a country with a lower cost of living.

I find it fascinating that you expect people to work for less than they are worth then you call anyone who doesn't agree with that line of thinking greedy.  okey dokey whatever.

Having a discussion about how to hire developers is a good one.  It needs to be tied into expectations from multiple sides.  etc.
http://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/beijing-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,7_IM997_KO8,25.htm

150,000 Chinese Yuan equals 24,116.34 US Dollar a year.
$2009 a month. So $5000 a month is fantastic for a person living in China and $2500 would actually be all they would need to make more than most software developers.

The solution? Hire Chinese developers and save around $8000 a month compared to hiring German or American developers.  The remaining $8000 could go to hiring 2 more developers or to marketing.

Think of Bitshares as a startup business and start thinking like a businessman and not an employee. Why would you hire developers who cost x5 more for the same work?

And no I don't think Bitshares is out of the startup stage. It's not even at 1.0 yet and hasn't even reached 1 billion dollar market cap. WhatsApp has a higher market cap and it's just a chat program. 

To be fair there is nothing stopping an American or anyone else from moving to China to live for a while as they work as a delegate. There are ways to get around these problems if the person truly wants to work for the blockchain but if they see it as just another job then perhaps they won't want to work in China or places even cheaper.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2014, 08:56:13 am by luckybit »
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Offline gamey

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 5k is not really good money for a developer in the US.   That is absurd.  The average is 95k which is around 8k a month.   AVERAGE.

BTW. I'm not trying to insult anyone, but just be realistic.  Germany isn't that different from the US.  And for anyone working on Bitshares for significantly less than their market rate, a big THANK YOU from me.

You're talking about Bitshares as if it's Google or Microsoft. Startups do not pay "market rate". They pay below market rate because their goal is to build a profitable business and this requires working long hours for just enough money to survive.

If I were the CEO of a startup I'm not going to be focused on getting a fat salary. I'm going to be focused on launching the businesses and growing it. Bitshares cannot afford to pay developers 10k a month and it's only greed that allows anyone to think it can.

I'll repeat:
10k a month is greedy. [/b

Bring Bitshares up to 1 billion market cap and then we can start talking about 10k a month for delegates. 10k a month for developers not named Dan is ridiculous and that isn't any insult to any of the other developers.

Please do a basic web-search. You have no idea about what software devs are paid these days. 

Startups pay less because people are also paid in equity in addition to their salary.  We are past that stage even if it seems the same to you since people are paid in shares.

I didn't say anything about what is greedy or what isn't.  I'm just stating reality as a basis for this discussion.  Yes marketing Bitshares could bring in developers, but it is going to do so on the basis of charity by the employee or finding someone who lives in a country with a lower cost of living.

I find it fascinating that you expect people to work for less than they are worth then you call anyone who doesn't agree with that line of thinking greedy.  okey dokey whatever.

Having a discussion about how to hire developers is a good one.  It needs to be tied into expectations from multiple sides.  etc.
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline luckybit

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There is an important logic to everything I said. So before developers shout me down I'll explain the logic.

The pay of developers or of any employee of a startup is supposed to be tied to the success or failure of the business. It's supposed to be a risk working for a startup vs working for an established company but also a chance to get rich.

Developers work for startups for 5k a month or sometimes even volunteer because the money to pay them doesn't exist yet. These developers work for the dream, the vision, and in many cases for shares which aren't worth very much when they started the job. These developers are rewarded when the share price rises and they become rich because the success of the business is what makes them rich.

If you pay developers 10k a month they will have no incentive to care about the business and you'll have developers who might not care as much about the vision as they care about making a quick buck. If developers understand how valuable BTS are they'd voluntarily sacrifice for lower pay knowing that it's better for their BTS holdings.
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Offline luckybit

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 5k is not really good money for a developer in the US.   That is absurd.  The average is 95k which is around 8k a month.   AVERAGE.

BTW. I'm not trying to insult anyone, but just be realistic.  Germany isn't that different from the US.  And for anyone working on Bitshares for significantly less than their market rate, a big THANK YOU from me.

You're talking about Bitshares as if it's Google or Microsoft. Startups do not pay "market rate". They pay below market rate because their goal is to build a profitable business and this requires working long hours for just enough money to survive. When you say the average you're not saying whether it's the average in China, in Spain, in Turkey, in India, or globally so your figures don't really matter when the blockchain has a global pool to choose from and now just expensive developers from Silicon Valley.

If I were the CEO of a startup I'm not going to be focused on getting a fat salary. I'm going to be focused on launching the businesses and growing it. Bitshares cannot afford to pay developers 10k a month and it's only greed that allows anyone to think it can.

I'll repeat:
10k a month is greedy.

Bring Bitshares up to 1 billion market cap and then we can start talking about 10k a month for delegates. 10k a month for developers not named Dan is ridiculous and that isn't any insult to any of the other developers.

There is a time to talk about 10k a month for developers but that time isn't right now.  When the Bitshares marketcap rises to allow for it to make economic sense then discuss 10k a month for developers. And why not 10k a month for the marketers too if they manage to bring the market cap so high.

« Last Edit: December 26, 2014, 08:32:48 am by luckybit »
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The problem is more about the pay I suspect.  That and possibly language preference.  Not everyone does C++. 

While you used to say 25k-30k a month IIRC, 5k is too low. Average CS graduate gets over that and there are a lot of average CS degreed average programmers out there.

I don't think the price is so important because a lot of people don't have jobs but know C++. It's more you have to find the people who have no job but who know C++ along with a proven track record which is different.

Lots of students and academics can code. Few have worked on anything like Bitshares. Rock star developers are what you want and you can get them if the marketing is very good.

Let me approach this from the other side.  I'm a freelance software developer, and I'm available for hire. I wrote my first program in '83 and acquired the german equivalent of a CS master in '96.

I do have a proven track record - I did most of the under-the-hood work for PTS-DPOS. For example, I designed and implemented the method for claiming sharedrop balances securely without the need to import private keys. I did all the required work within a couple of weeks, without any prior knowledge of the BTS- or PTS-PoW codebases. I think this demonstrates my analytical skills, basic knowledge of crypto methods and protocols, skills as software designer and skills as a C++ coder.

Leaving the politics of PTS-DPOS aside, how much would the DAC be willing to pay for me (or anyone with my skills) as a full-time developer?

Hints: I live in germany, I have to feed a family, I have to pay taxes, and I wouldn't do it for 5k USD per month.

Would be good if you can act as part time and use the fee as a supplementary income.

If BTS, as we all hope, becomes massive then the pays may become enough for full time jobs. We would be more inclined to vote for employees who have already been with us than somebody new, so joining up now would help you.

Offline gamey

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 5k is not really good money for a developer in the US.   That is absurd.  The average is 95k which is around 8k a month.   AVERAGE.

BTW. I'm not trying to insult anyone, but just be realistic.  Germany isn't that different from the US.  And for anyone working on Bitshares for significantly less than their market rate, a big THANK YOU from me.
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Offline luckybit

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The problem is more about the pay I suspect.  That and possibly language preference.  Not everyone does C++. 

While you used to say 25k-30k a month IIRC, 5k is too low. Average CS graduate gets over that and there are a lot of average CS degreed average programmers out there.

I don't think the price is so important because a lot of people don't have jobs but know C++. It's more you have to find the people who have no job but who know C++ along with a proven track record which is different.

Lots of students and academics can code. Few have worked on anything like Bitshares. Rock star developers are what you want and you can get them if the marketing is very good.

Let me approach this from the other side.  I'm a freelance software developer, and I'm available for hire. I wrote my first program in '83 and acquired the german equivalent of a CS master in '96.

I do have a proven track record - I did most of the under-the-hood work for PTS-DPOS. For example, I designed and implemented the method for claiming sharedrop balances securely without the need to import private keys. I did all the required work within a couple of weeks, without any prior knowledge of the BTS- or PTS-PoW codebases. I think this demonstrates my analytical skills, basic knowledge of crypto methods and protocols, skills as software designer and skills as a C++ coder.

Leaving the politics of PTS-DPOS aside, how much would the DAC be willing to pay for me (or anyone with my skills) as a full-time developer?

Hints: I live in germany, I have to feed a family, I have to pay taxes, and I wouldn't do it for 5k USD per month.

Germany has a better economy with far lower rate of unemployment than anywhere else. The Euro is also stronger than the dollar. $5k a month is really good money for a developer in the United States but it's not good when it's $5k a month in Euro to a German.

The answer in my opinion is simply not to hire expensive Germans if it's a situation where a Greek, Spanish, Chinese, Russian or American developer will do the same for less. I understand your point of view and I also would understand if I'm an American asking for $5k a month and someone in China would be comfortable on $2.5k a month. As a voter I will favor hiring developers who will do it for less money or who live in places of high unemployment.

But I don't think any developer needs $10k a month. That is more than most developers get anywhere in the world. It might be good for marketing and perhaps Bytemaster could ask for $10k a month but why would anyone else demand that? Put it this way when Apple or Microsoft first started did developers get paid?

Typically startups don't pay very much. It's a lot of work and a lot of the time developers will volunteer to work for startups getting paid in shares because they really believe in the project. I think those sort of developers are the developers we should try to attract but at the same time it has to pay enough for people to live.

I think the best way to focus marketing is to target parts of the world where you have a highly educated young skilled unemployed population. Greece, Spain, Russia, the UK, are all examples. There are enough unemployed college graduates in these countries that you could train some of them to develop for Bitshares.

As far as track record goes in that area we have two options. Either we find unemployed college graduates with interest and talent who can be trained or we hire people with a track record already. If it costs more to train new people then hire the people with a track record but if it is cheaper to train new people it makes sense to hire new people.

« Last Edit: December 26, 2014, 08:15:18 am by luckybit »
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Offline gamey

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Problem is developers have to be convinced bitshares is a better system than whatever they are already working on. It's a chicken an egg problem because once top devs start "defecting" we will see more and more joining us. The biggest issue is really getting the first couple of devs, and I am happy to see initiatives working towards this, but I don't think vitalik should be the first target. He probably won't join us until bitshares had begun to completely dominate all competition.

The problem is more about the pay I suspect.  That and possibly language preference.  Not everyone does C++. 

While you used to say 25k-30k a month IIRC, 5k is too low. Average CS graduate gets over that and there are a lot of average CS degreed average programmers out there.

I don't think the price is so important because a lot of people don't have jobs but know C++. It's more you have to find the people who have no job but who know C++ along with a proven track record which is different.

Lots of students and academics can code. Few have worked on anything like Bitshares. Rock star developers are what you want and you can get them if the marketing is very good.

yea, price isn't important because people want to work far under market wage.  Just because someone 'knows C++' doesn't mean they are that valuable.  You could find a genius coder who never touched C++ who would have far more value than someone who "knows C++". 

Price does matter.  You basic argument is that competent people with IQ's 120+ will work partially for charity if the marketing is right.  I don't begin to understand why you think this. 

I love reading this forum and hearing gems of wisdom.. which all boil down to.. "We want the best talent for the least amount of money".  The people who give us these gems seem to think they are saying something of value. 

I mean... You honestly think that the people with a 'proven track record' that know C++ can't find a job?  Ok... well...  I guess Bitshares must already be on the moon.

Best case is you find a decent dev who knows C++ and is not in a first world country and loves crypto projects.

Although I may sound very negative my goal is just to make people think in a realistic fashion.

Even C++ programmers have to communicate with the core team which is quite difficult to do.  I don't even think they need C++ devs anymore.

The conversation should be based more around expectations than wishful thinking.

BTW PC is a badass.
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Offline fluxer555

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Leaving the politics of PTS-DPOS aside, how much would the DAC be willing to pay for me (or anyone with my skills) as a full-time developer?

Hints: I live in germany, I have to feed a family, I have to pay taxes, and I wouldn't do it for 5k USD per month.

How about 10k per month?

Offline Rune

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The problem is more about the pay I suspect.  That and possibly language preference.  Not everyone does C++. 

While you used to say 25k-30k a month IIRC, 5k is too low. Average CS graduate gets over that and there are a lot of average CS degreed average programmers out there.

I don't think the price is so important because a lot of people don't have jobs but know C++. It's more you have to find the people who have no job but who know C++ along with a proven track record which is different.

Lots of students and academics can code. Few have worked on anything like Bitshares. Rock star developers are what you want and you can get them if the marketing is very good.

Let me approach this from the other side.  I'm a freelance software developer, and I'm available for hire. I wrote my first program in '83 and acquired the german equivalent of a CS master in '96.

I do have a proven track record - I did most of the under-the-hood work for PTS-DPOS. For example, I designed and implemented the method for claiming sharedrop balances securely without the need to import private keys. I did all the required work within a couple of weeks, without any prior knowledge of the BTS- or PTS-PoW codebases. I think this demonstrates my analytical skills, basic knowledge of crypto methods and protocols, skills as software designer and skills as a C++ coder.

Leaving the politics of PTS-DPOS aside, how much would the DAC be willing to pay for me (or anyone with my skills) as a full-time developer?

Hints: I live in germany, I have to feed a family, I have to pay taxes, and I wouldn't do it for 5k USD per month.

Wouldn't you be willing to do it part time for a single delegate? You could come up with some project you think needs to be done and then turn it into a delegate proposal. At first it would also need to be something you're also doing out of passion for crypto, and not just for payment (Like I imagine the situation was with PTS-DPOS). But over time as bitshares grows it could become a massive job and even potentially a massive business.