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Offline fuzzy

Full Pay Delegates for Gateways
« on: December 28, 2014, 09:23:34 PM »

What if we as a community decided to set aside perhaps twenty or so 100% delegates "on Contract" to receive 100% delegate pay for up to a full year for opening up fiat Gateways (like BTC38 did) and meeting certain metrics we write. 

I am NOT certain all of the details to how this would be done, but watching BTC38 have a delegate paid for and also noting their willingness to use bitCNY as though it is "real" CNY has really gotten me thinking about this...

Thoughts?  Please try to make them constructive!
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Offline Xeldal

Re: Full Pay Delegates for Gateways
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2014, 09:35:22 PM »
I would like to see a localbitcoins style site for bitshares so to make it easy for any individual to act as an on/off ramp.  All you need is a bank account to participate.  (not even that, if your trading locally)

I'm not sure its necessary to pay someone to operate a Gateway, as the gateway should be able to make its own income/ provide its own incentives to run it.

Offline fuzzy

Re: Full Pay Delegates for Gateways
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2014, 09:43:24 PM »
I would like to see a localbitcoins style site for bitshares so to make it easy for any individual to act as an on/off ramp.  All you need is a bank account to participate.  (not even that, if your trading locally)

I'm not sure its necessary to pay someone to operate a Gateway, as the gateway should be able to make its own income/ provide its own incentives to run it.

The only problem I see is that competitors like Nubits and Ripple offer something of immediate value because they are more centralized.  NuShares holders can just create a bunch of nubits and give them to gateways, Ripple's founders have so many XRP and power over who controls the network that they can offer other great incentives.  How do we compete?
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Offline Shentist

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Re: Full Pay Delegates for Gateways
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2014, 09:45:46 PM »
I would like to see a localbitcoins style site for bitshares so to make it easy for any individual to act as an on/off ramp.  All you need is a bank account to participate.  (not even that, if your trading locally)

I'm not sure its necessary to pay someone to operate a Gateway, as the gateway should be able to make its own income/ provide its own incentives to run it.

The only problem I see is that competitors like Nubits and Ripple offer something of immediate value because they are more centralized.  NuShares holders can just create a bunch of nubits and give them to gateways, Ripple's founders have so many XRP and power over who controls the network that they can offer other great incentives.  How do we compete?

We don't!
Do you really want to pay someone to get BTS on his service? We could pay the integration but this would end with it. Why should i pay the Gateway for BTS and the Gateway will also collect money from us?

Offline fuzzy

Re: Full Pay Delegates for Gateways
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2014, 09:47:35 PM »
I would like to see a localbitcoins style site for bitshares so to make it easy for any individual to act as an on/off ramp.  All you need is a bank account to participate.  (not even that, if your trading locally)

I'm not sure its necessary to pay someone to operate a Gateway, as the gateway should be able to make its own income/ provide its own incentives to run it.

The only problem I see is that competitors like Nubits and Ripple offer something of immediate value because they are more centralized.  NuShares holders can just create a bunch of nubits and give them to gateways, Ripple's founders have so many XRP and power over who controls the network that they can offer other great incentives.  How do we compete?

We don't!
Do you really want to pay someone to get BTS on his service? We could pay the integration but this would end with it. Why should i pay the Gateway for BTS and the Gateway will also collect money from us?

I never said they have to collect money in tx fees.  However, I see your point.  Perhaps it could be seen as a (temporary) subsidy that they can get if they offer lower tx fees for bitAssets than other cryptos?

If we build ALL our own gateways (many of which I support fully--like the metaexchange) from the ground up then THEY have to gain traction in a market where our competitors are already gaining significant value from being allied with first mover gateways.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 09:49:34 PM by fuzzy »
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Offline Rune

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Re: Full Pay Delegates for Gateways
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2014, 09:50:35 PM »
I think this is a fantastic idea.

If we keep it uncapped or capped very high, it would not make the initial low payment see irrelevant as it is clearly a long term investment. We  can have groups of stakevoters go together to sign a statement saying that they will vote for a delegate that can have 100% payrate until a very high number. We could use really high cap numbers to gain attention.

This strategy could also be used for "top devs". We could announce:

Support major fiat gateways for a 100% investment delegate up til 1 million USD per year (numbers are made up, I don't know what would be most efficient?).

Support a single developer delegate for Gavin for up to[average high level dev salary] USD per year.

Support a single developer delegate for satoshi for up to 10-20 million USD per year (or some really high number to draw attention).

I think this would actually draw attention from the kind of people who understand why mining was the biggest completely new business bitcoin spawned. This is the kind of offer you can take directly to coinbase/circle/bitstamp and other big business in bitcoin.

Offline fluxer555

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Re: Full Pay Delegates for Gateways
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2014, 09:56:02 PM »
A crazy, not-thought-out idea...

What if gateways passed on part of their delegate pay to their customers as some kind of bonus, or interest? Would there be any economic incentive to do this? Would there be any economic incentive to not hire and/or fire gateways that do this? Would this be a good or bad or neutral thing for BTS holders?
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Offline matt608

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Re: Full Pay Delegates for Gateways
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2014, 10:06:02 PM »

What if gateways passed on part of their delegate pay to their customers as some kind of bonus, or interest? Would there be any economic incentive to do this? Would there be any economic incentive to not hire and/or fire gateways that do this? Would this be a good or bad or neutral thing for BTS holders?

Yes, that's the way to do it, if done at all.

Offer the gateway delegate pay on the condition they use it give discounts to users to make use of their new BitShares features, for a limited time, such as 1 year.

Should only be done for really big serious gateways such as bitstamp or coinbase.  Once you got a couple of major gateways on board smaller sites will want to do it too for free.

The problem is ensuring the gateway keeps the delegate position.  If there was a way to 'lock in' a vote for certain time period then deals like this could be made a lot more easily.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 10:08:35 PM by matt608 »

Offline Frodo

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Re: Full Pay Delegates for Gateways
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2014, 10:07:00 PM »
I would like to see a localbitcoins style site for bitshares so to make it easy for any individual to act as an on/off ramp.  All you need is a bank account to participate.  (not even that, if your trading locally)

I'm not sure its necessary to pay someone to operate a Gateway, as the gateway should be able to make its own income/ provide its own incentives to run it.

Fully agree with both points.

As a new investor I would be a bit sceptical if we basically used investor funds just to get some gateways running. For me one of the greatest things about BitShares is its economic efficiency. We don't want to lose that.

Offline Shentist

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Re: Full Pay Delegates for Gateways
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2014, 10:08:40 PM »

What if gateways passed on part of their delegate pay to their customers as some kind of bonus, or interest? Would there be any economic incentive to do this? Would there be any economic incentive to not hire and/or fire gateways that do this? Would this be a good or bad or neutral thing for BTS holders?

Yes, that's the way to do it.

Offer the gateway delegate pay on the condition they use it give discounts to users to make use of their new BitShares features, for a limited time, such as 1 year.

Should only be done for really big serious gateways such as bitstamp or coinbase, maybe kraken.  Smaller gateways could be grouped?

The problem is ensuring the gateway keeps the delegate position.  If there was a way to 'lock in' a vote for certain time period then deals like this could be made a lot more easily.

You are hopefully aware that with BTC38 share power, say could easily grab a delegate seat or more?

Offline matt608

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Re: Full Pay Delegates for Gateways
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2014, 10:11:10 PM »

What if gateways passed on part of their delegate pay to their customers as some kind of bonus, or interest? Would there be any economic incentive to do this? Would there be any economic incentive to not hire and/or fire gateways that do this? Would this be a good or bad or neutral thing for BTS holders?

Yes, that's the way to do it.

Offer the gateway delegate pay on the condition they use it give discounts to users to make use of their new BitShares features, for a limited time, such as 1 year.

Should only be done for really big serious gateways such as bitstamp or coinbase, maybe kraken.  Smaller gateways could be grouped?

The problem is ensuring the gateway keeps the delegate position.  If there was a way to 'lock in' a vote for certain time period then deals like this could be made a lot more easily.

You are hopefully aware that with BTC38 share power, say could easily grab a delegate seat or more?

BTC38 could but other sites which don't yet trade BTS couldn't.  I'd only be in favour of it for really big gateways, and only 1 or 2 as that should be enough to initiate a snowball effect.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 10:14:00 PM by matt608 »

Offline Rune

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Re: Full Pay Delegates for Gateways
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2014, 10:18:32 PM »
A crazy, not-thought-out idea...

What if gateways passed on part of their delegate pay to their customers as some kind of bonus, or interest? Would there be any economic incentive to do this? Would there be any economic incentive to not hire and/or fire gateways that do this? Would this be a good or bad or neutral thing for BTS holders?

This is great. We can pay them 50/50 and announce really high numbers for those signing up with new accounts with them. Maybe this can be a part of bitshares KYC to ensure they are real people. So people who sign up with bitshares bitvote/KYC through a given exchange/gateway gets 50% of the delegates budget, the other half goes straight to the exchange. We could take really high numbers to coinbase/circle/bitstamp/okcoin/all the other big sites. Maybe like 5 million per year to the exchange, 5 million per year to the customers, or perhaps even higher to the first couple. What if we told circle they could get 150 million per year for integrating us, but had to always give on two-thirds of the budget (so they actually gain 50 million) (remember that before they would actually receive this amount, our market cap would have to be 150 billion!). We can include a time limit and can easily end the deal if we feel they are misusing it.

We could also take the offer to bitpay. They could reward merchants who sign up for their service and integrate bitUSD with sharedrops. That way we pay directly both for on-ramp and off-ramp integration.

Offline pendragon3

Re: Full Pay Delegates for Gateways
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2014, 10:31:23 PM »
First of all, it depends on what type of gateways we're talking about. Gateways for BTC, BTS are well and good, but what we really need most of all is on- and off-ramps between BitUSD and fiat. I can't think of anything else (except for perhaps a stable client and good user experience) that is more important for BitShares' success. It's the BitUSD/USD ramps that BitShares desperately needs to tap into the mass market, appeal to merchants, and achieve a huge network effect. Marketing is also important, but marketing by itself doesn't guarantee victory--just look at Bitcoin, which, despite receiving a ton of mainstream media attention (e.g., the recent Bitcoin Bowl) is still only used by a tiny fraction of the population. But good marketing + robust fiat on/off ramps? That would be an awesome combination that would be a nearly sufficient condition for BitShares' success, IMO.

Overall, I'm in favor of establishing gateway-focused delegate positions because it's easy to underestimate the risks, costs, and time involved in setting up a strong fiat gateway. It's not just a matter of technology development; there are KYC and regulatory issues as well. This is clearly hard stuff. If it weren't, no doubt Bp and others would've announced multiple deals and partnerships by now. So, sufficient incentives need to be in place for exchanges or other entities to take the plunge and be the first to develop the types of gateways we need. We could always try asking the Coinbases and BitStamps of the world nicely, but I doubt that by itself will be very effective.

Gateway-centric delegate positions could (1) serve as a reward for creating and maintaining BitUSD/USD gateways or (2) provide a mechanism for funding a pool of free samples that can help encourage exchanges to try BitUSD. IIRC, that's how Ripple got BitStamp to become a XRP gateway--they gave them a bulk amount of XRP upfront.

This area of infrastructure development should be made a key focus of BitShares NOW given the substantial time lag that will be needed to develop a robust system of ramps and gateways.

Offline Empirical1.1

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Re: Full Pay Delegates for Gateways
« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2014, 10:37:55 PM »
This is all worth serious discussion imo.

Anything that makes BitAssets look good and is seen to give them utility causes our share price to rise the most imo.

Nothing so far has moved our price positively other than good BitAsset news imo.

I suggested in another thread getting in some 100% delegates who start to accumulate BitAssets (CNY, Silver, & Gold) with their pay. This will get more BitAssets onto the main page of coinmarketcap and give them a daily turnover, even better if the delegates try buy through bter to bump their turnover on their too. It doesn't matter that it's not all genuine demand at first. It's about how it looks. What our business wants is our BitAssets in circulation seen to be rising with healthy daily turnover.

Those delegates then have a pool of BitAsset funds that can be directed to employment/marketing/gateways.

The next thing is of course to incentivise gateways. Any news that looks like BitAssets are gaining wider acceptance and utility is good for business. Our Share price rose 500% in 10 days on the release of BitAssets.
It was up 20% the other day on the BTC38 BitCNY news despite a huge fork problem. (I actually think had it not been for the fork that announcement would have been massive for us.)

So I'm all about getting the wheels turning on BitAsset CAP, turnover and utility by any means possible.
 

 
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 10:40:22 PM by Empirical1.1 »

Offline onceuponatime

Re: Full Pay Delegates for Gateways
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2014, 10:45:21 PM »
There are now several reputable bullion dealers who accept bitcoin for their wares (silver and gold coins and bars). For them to accept bitSILVER for silver coins and bitGOLD for gold coins seems like a very fertile opportunity.

 

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