Author Topic: Full Pay Delegates for Gateways  (Read 6769 times)

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Offline Rune

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Perhaps in the future is should become a smart contract of some kind that is controlled by several people. If the amount of people controlling it is large enough then it will be difficult to communicate secretly and thus conspire.

Very good point. Smart contracts at present are out of the equation though.

Hmm...the more I think about this...who better tha  oir own community to represent us? We can set a couple delegates aside to form a sort of insurance pool that can be paid out to those who whistleblow on, for instance, an exchange who is not doing what we laid out in the terms. Let them get paid out anyway for their honesty (or something to that effect).

So maybe the next step for this would be to list tje exchanges we should have in our crosshairs?

I think coinbase, bitstamp, bitfinex, circle, okcoin, btcchina, are all prime targets. Btc-e also maybe?

I don't think we should be too afraid of the exchanges getting too much power. Using this system, we will have a lot of leverage over them. If bitUSD signup bonuses becomes widespread, why would anyone bother signig up and learning use an exchange that doesn't give a bonus? The companies business models would be based around this bonus over time as the competition evolved, so they would become more and more dependent on us. And the power of this dependence wouldn't be vested in any individual the community, it would be with the entirety of the voters only.

Offline fuzzy

Perhaps in the future is should become a smart contract of some kind that is controlled by several people. If the amount of people controlling it is large enough then it will be difficult to communicate secretly and thus conspire.

Very good point. Smart contracts at present are out of the equation though.

Hmm...the more I think about this...who better tha  oir own community to represent us? We can set a couple delegates aside to form a sort of insurance pool that can be paid out to those who whistleblow on, for instance, an exchange who is not doing what we laid out in the terms. Let them get paid out anyway for their honesty (or something to that effect).

So maybe the next step for this would be to list tje exchanges we should have in our crosshairs?
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Offline Rune

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Hell nullstreet might not even need a delegate at that point because they could essentially monetize the bitshares-centric news site that method had already set Nullstreet up to become.

How would you monetise this without a delegate?

Offline fuzzy

If we do something like this and do it right, I think we essentially incentivize these gateways and in the case of bullion dealers a reason to put their own marketing networks behind us. 

Then having a couple marketing delegates in house is just icing on the cake.  Hell nullstreet might not even need a delegate at that point because they could essentially monetize the bitshares-centric news site that method had already set Nullstreet up to become.

Then the marketers get paid for writing article on connections that COME TO THEM instead of focusing their efforts on proving bts and the value of bitshares...

Everyone, as I see it, wins.  And that feels good to me...
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Offline Rune

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How is the btc38 delegate running? Is it one of their people or one of community members running it for them?

How much do you think the marketcap would rise on bts if some of the top fiat gateways announced a bitUSD/bitEuro equivalent maneuver?

I know for a fact bitstamp should be good as gold for something like this becaue they seem to rt a great many of my @beyond_bitcoin twitter poats aboit bitUSD. They seem ripe for the picking...or rather, ripe for integration.


*edit* I read runes idea. I like the idea of people being representatives who can help negotiate deals and run the servers.

However, my one concern would be the incentive to side with an exchange if a dispute should occur. What happens in this instance? Does it provide more of an incentive for the representatives to shed light on potential breaches of agreements? Or does it incentivize silence from the reps?

Perhaps in the future is should become a smart contract of some kind that is controlled by several people. If the amount of people controlling it is large enough then it will be difficult to communicate secretly and thus conspire.

Offline fuzzy

How is the btc38 delegate running? Is it one of their people or one of community members running it for them?

How much do you think the marketcap would rise on bts if some of the top fiat gateways announced a bitUSD/bitEuro equivalent maneuver?

I know for a fact bitstamp should be good as gold for something like this becaue they seem to rt a great many of my @beyond_bitcoin twitter poats aboit bitUSD. They seem ripe for the picking...or rather, ripe for integration.


*edit* I read runes idea. I like the idea of people being representatives who can help negotiate deals and run the servers.

However, my one concern would be the incentive to side with an exchange if a dispute should occur. What happens in this instance? Does it provide more of an incentive for the representatives to shed light on potential breaches of agreements? Or does it incentivize silence from the reps?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 12:17:20 am by fuzzy »
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Offline Rune

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Who will create delegates for these exchanges? Which ones do you think should be created? Lets get this ready ASAP! The one who makes a support delegate for someone else will get a 5% bonus (seems to be the going rate) which is pretty nice.

If we have the coinbase delegate ready for when BM approaches coinbase again, it will be perfect! They will be encouraged to act now and announce positive information quickly, in order to get the delegate rolling asap, collecting money for them. As soon as any positive news comes out from an exchange, you can bet everyone will be grateful and vote instantly.

I also like the bitreserve/bitgold idea. We should have registered delegates for all and let the voters decide!

I'm gonna register coinbase.rune, I think everyone who think they can run them should make delegates like this for the on/offramps they support. We can also use it for developers that we want to hire in the future. Then if one of them starts getting traction they can be set up as real delegates and the person running it can donate it to new user signups on their site or pay a developer to help them integrate.

Edit: totally forgot delegate registration fees... Maybe I'll see if people would be willing to vote for it first.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 01:35:22 am by Rune »

Offline Empirical1.1

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There are now several reputable bullion dealers who accept bitcoin for their wares (silver and gold coins and bars). For them to accept bitSILVER for silver coins and bitGOLD for gold coins seems like a very fertile opportunity.

Yes this is great. I would use delegates for this too, lets not expect those dealers to absorb any volatility and hassle. To kickstart the process our delegates should be eating a small loss and maybe even providing an incentive.

I'm a bit wary of the sharks in the water like BitReserve, or BitGold.com for now, but getting reputable bullion dealers to accept BitGold/Silver would definitely give a huge boost to their credibility & utility. Big bump in our value for getting this done I feel.

sumantso

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Simple question, can we have an exchange which converts BTC to BitBTC and back (with a trivial fee if necessary) and use a delegate pay to absorb any deviation in peg? I would really like to see a BTC/BitBTC wallet which allows one click transfer between two in-wallet.

It can happen for any other pair, once it gets established and start getting used the peg will hold on its own and the delegate pay won't be needed anymore.

Offline onceuponatime

There are now several reputable bullion dealers who accept bitcoin for their wares (silver and gold coins and bars). For them to accept bitSILVER for silver coins and bitGOLD for gold coins seems like a very fertile opportunity.

Offline Empirical1.1

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This is all worth serious discussion imo.

Anything that makes BitAssets look good and is seen to give them utility causes our share price to rise the most imo.

Nothing so far has moved our price positively other than good BitAsset news imo.

I suggested in another thread getting in some 100% delegates who start to accumulate BitAssets (CNY, Silver, & Gold) with their pay. This will get more BitAssets onto the main page of coinmarketcap and give them a daily turnover, even better if the delegates try buy through bter to bump their turnover on their too. It doesn't matter that it's not all genuine demand at first. It's about how it looks. What our business wants is our BitAssets in circulation seen to be rising with healthy daily turnover.

Those delegates then have a pool of BitAsset funds that can be directed to employment/marketing/gateways.

The next thing is of course to incentivise gateways. Any news that looks like BitAssets are gaining wider acceptance and utility is good for business. Our Share price rose 500% in 10 days on the release of BitAssets.
It was up 20% the other day on the BTC38 BitCNY news despite a huge fork problem. (I actually think had it not been for the fork that announcement would have been massive for us.)

So I'm all about getting the wheels turning on BitAsset CAP, turnover and utility by any means possible.
 

 
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 10:40:22 pm by Empirical1.1 »

Offline pendragon3

First of all, it depends on what type of gateways we're talking about. Gateways for BTC, BTS are well and good, but what we really need most of all is on- and off-ramps between BitUSD and fiat. I can't think of anything else (except for perhaps a stable client and good user experience) that is more important for BitShares' success. It's the BitUSD/USD ramps that BitShares desperately needs to tap into the mass market, appeal to merchants, and achieve a huge network effect. Marketing is also important, but marketing by itself doesn't guarantee victory--just look at Bitcoin, which, despite receiving a ton of mainstream media attention (e.g., the recent Bitcoin Bowl) is still only used by a tiny fraction of the population. But good marketing + robust fiat on/off ramps? That would be an awesome combination that would be a nearly sufficient condition for BitShares' success, IMO.

Overall, I'm in favor of establishing gateway-focused delegate positions because it's easy to underestimate the risks, costs, and time involved in setting up a strong fiat gateway. It's not just a matter of technology development; there are KYC and regulatory issues as well. This is clearly hard stuff. If it weren't, no doubt Bp and others would've announced multiple deals and partnerships by now. So, sufficient incentives need to be in place for exchanges or other entities to take the plunge and be the first to develop the types of gateways we need. We could always try asking the Coinbases and BitStamps of the world nicely, but I doubt that by itself will be very effective.

Gateway-centric delegate positions could (1) serve as a reward for creating and maintaining BitUSD/USD gateways or (2) provide a mechanism for funding a pool of free samples that can help encourage exchanges to try BitUSD. IIRC, that's how Ripple got BitStamp to become a XRP gateway--they gave them a bulk amount of XRP upfront.

This area of infrastructure development should be made a key focus of BitShares NOW given the substantial time lag that will be needed to develop a robust system of ramps and gateways.

Offline Rune

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A crazy, not-thought-out idea...

What if gateways passed on part of their delegate pay to their customers as some kind of bonus, or interest? Would there be any economic incentive to do this? Would there be any economic incentive to not hire and/or fire gateways that do this? Would this be a good or bad or neutral thing for BTS holders?

This is great. We can pay them 50/50 and announce really high numbers for those signing up with new accounts with them. Maybe this can be a part of bitshares KYC to ensure they are real people. So people who sign up with bitshares bitvote/KYC through a given exchange/gateway gets 50% of the delegates budget, the other half goes straight to the exchange. We could take really high numbers to coinbase/circle/bitstamp/okcoin/all the other big sites. Maybe like 5 million per year to the exchange, 5 million per year to the customers, or perhaps even higher to the first couple. What if we told circle they could get 150 million per year for integrating us, but had to always give on two-thirds of the budget (so they actually gain 50 million) (remember that before they would actually receive this amount, our market cap would have to be 150 billion!). We can include a time limit and can easily end the deal if we feel they are misusing it.

We could also take the offer to bitpay. They could reward merchants who sign up for their service and integrate bitUSD with sharedrops. That way we pay directly both for on-ramp and off-ramp integration.

Offline matt608

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What if gateways passed on part of their delegate pay to their customers as some kind of bonus, or interest? Would there be any economic incentive to do this? Would there be any economic incentive to not hire and/or fire gateways that do this? Would this be a good or bad or neutral thing for BTS holders?

Yes, that's the way to do it.

Offer the gateway delegate pay on the condition they use it give discounts to users to make use of their new BitShares features, for a limited time, such as 1 year.

Should only be done for really big serious gateways such as bitstamp or coinbase, maybe kraken.  Smaller gateways could be grouped?

The problem is ensuring the gateway keeps the delegate position.  If there was a way to 'lock in' a vote for certain time period then deals like this could be made a lot more easily.

You are hopefully aware that with BTC38 share power, say could easily grab a delegate seat or more?

BTC38 could but other sites which don't yet trade BTS couldn't.  I'd only be in favour of it for really big gateways, and only 1 or 2 as that should be enough to initiate a snowball effect.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 10:14:00 pm by matt608 »

Offline Shentist

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What if gateways passed on part of their delegate pay to their customers as some kind of bonus, or interest? Would there be any economic incentive to do this? Would there be any economic incentive to not hire and/or fire gateways that do this? Would this be a good or bad or neutral thing for BTS holders?

Yes, that's the way to do it.

Offer the gateway delegate pay on the condition they use it give discounts to users to make use of their new BitShares features, for a limited time, such as 1 year.

Should only be done for really big serious gateways such as bitstamp or coinbase, maybe kraken.  Smaller gateways could be grouped?

The problem is ensuring the gateway keeps the delegate position.  If there was a way to 'lock in' a vote for certain time period then deals like this could be made a lot more easily.

You are hopefully aware that with BTC38 share power, say could easily grab a delegate seat or more?