Author Topic: How to make payroll without multiple delegates per developer  (Read 9737 times)

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Offline theoretical

Multiple delegates held by one person taxing the blockchain will definitely kill this.

Which is why I proposed the system in OP where bytemaster decides who deserves what, issues IOU's, then the shareholders vote in delegates held by multiple different owners to redeem the IOU's by buying and burning them.

The real solution would be to have the blockchain scale delegate income within the supply envelope, i.e. if max inflation is 5050 BTS / round, and you have 11 delegates at 100% and 90 delegates at 3%, then you just figure 11 * 100 + 90 * 3 = 1100 + 270 = 1370, make each percentage point worth 5050 / 1370 so the 100% delegates get 368.61 BTS and the 3% delegates get 11.05 BTS, the total is 11 * 368.61 + 90 * 11.05 = 5049.21.  Now the "%" has become kind of a misnomer and we just have arbitrary weights.

You should be able to have the delegate specify maximum as well as a weight, then you pour the round's supply allocation into each delegate proportional to their weight, removing a delegate whenever its max pay is reached.  You should be able to specify the maximum as a BitAsset, so you can specify e.g. "I want $200 / round" and the blockchain will give you $200 worth of BTS when your slot comes up (or even better, front-run the market and buy you BitUSD automatically).

All of these features would be hardforks and need lots of testing, the main selling point of OP is it captures 80% of the value and can be implemented by a simple script on today's blockchain, no complicated, potentially exploitable exchange rate discovery / market maker bot logic or hardfork required.
BTS- theoretical / PTS- PZxpdC8RqWsdU3pVJeobZY7JFKVPfNpy5z / BTC- 1NfGejohzoVGffAD1CnCRgo9vApjCU2viY / the delegate formerly known as drltc / Nothing said on these forums is intended to be legally binding / All opinions are my own unless otherwise noted / Take action due to my posts at your own risk

Offline NewMine

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Wait. You just got $17K bonus and you have a 100% delegate raking around $2k per month? Plus, I assume you got $100K/yr prorated for however many months you were on I3/AGS payroll and you are publicly complaining that you think you won't be able to eat in a fewmonths?

I don't know what you do for a living, but if you moved to a different state for a new job (including paying relocation expenses out of your own pocket), and then within less than three months of hiring you they gave you a big bonus equivalent to a couple months' income, but told you they'd be cutting your pay to 1/3 going forward, wouldn't you try to negotiate a deal somewhat equivalent to what you originally agreed to -- and if you couldn't, wouldn't you at least seriously consider walking away?

be able to eat

This is a metaphor.  As others have noted, the relevant metric is opportunity cost -- how much I could be earning elsewhere, but am not.

publicly complaining

I think it's clear that I3 has little interest or ability to continue to directly pay developers.  Therefore, if I want to raise concerns about how much I am paid, I must talk to shareholders and present my case for new 100% delegate(s).  Which means making my case publicly, since there is no effective way to contact the BTS holders privately.

Damn. You went "all in". That's sucks. It sounds like you got duped. Hopefully you didn't burn bridges with you previous employer. Multiple delegates held by one person taxing the blockchain will definitely kill this. If there were 1001 delegates maybe, but then the block reward would be less. No win. I'd suggest looking for a new job so you can bail before you exhaust you bonus. Don't hold on to a hope and prayer, this is no sure thing. It could be years before this thing pans out. I am quite surprised that in an industry where everyone exclaims to not invest more than you can lose, that you would be asked *or you would commit to flip upside down your life to work for a not guaranteed wage and with possible total loss of all earnings if BTS price dropped.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 09:24:09 pm by NewMine »

Offline theoretical

Wait. You just got $17K bonus and you have a 100% delegate raking around $2k per month? Plus, I assume you got $100K/yr prorated for however many months you were on I3/AGS payroll and you are publicly complaining that you think you won't be able to eat in a fewmonths?

I don't know what you do for a living, but if you moved to a different state for a new job (including paying relocation expenses out of your own pocket), and then within less than three months of hiring you they gave you a big bonus equivalent to a couple months' income, but told you they'd be cutting your pay to 1/3 going forward, wouldn't you try to negotiate a deal somewhat equivalent to what you originally agreed to -- and if you couldn't, wouldn't you at least seriously consider walking away?

be able to eat

This is a metaphor.  As others have noted, the relevant metric is opportunity cost -- how much I could be earning elsewhere, but am not.

publicly complaining

I think it's clear that I3 has little interest or ability to continue to directly pay developers.  Therefore, if I want to raise concerns about how much I am paid, I must talk to shareholders and present my case for new 100% delegate(s).  Which means making my case publicly, since there is no effective way to contact the BTS holders privately.
BTS- theoretical / PTS- PZxpdC8RqWsdU3pVJeobZY7JFKVPfNpy5z / BTC- 1NfGejohzoVGffAD1CnCRgo9vApjCU2viY / the delegate formerly known as drltc / Nothing said on these forums is intended to be legally binding / All opinions are my own unless otherwise noted / Take action due to my posts at your own risk

Offline arhag

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I am sorry, but this kind of legalistic penny pinching will kill BTS and hurt morale.   

Core developers have a large enough stake that they now get "automatic bonuses"  if the value of that stake goes up as a result of their efforts.   The incentives are aligned. 

I am very much against the idea of "selling your time" or "buying time".   If these guys are only working for a paycheck then we would get crap work out of them.   If they are working for more than a paycheck then we will get far more value out of them.   

Lets not remove incentive for efficiency.  Lets not begrudge someone profits earned as a result of taking great risk.

I don't understand what you are saying here. Once the asset belongs to them, they can do whatever they want with it. That includes selling it for BTC. It doesn't matter if you pay them in BTS or BitUSD. The incentives are still the same. All that matters is how much value they are receiving in the present day. The one possible exception to this is if stakeholders decide to selectively void someone's remaining vested BTS funds, but that is a questionable action and a slippery slope.

So your argument that incentives are somehow more aligned because the devs get BTS which can go up in value if they do a good job is complete nonsense to me. If you pay them well, I see no reason why we would get "crap work out of them" just because they are working for a paycheck. Remember, if they don't believe in the future of BTS they already could sell all of the BTS they receive for USD as they receive it. In fact, we can guarantee that even true believers will have to sell a good portion of their received BTS to pay for living expenses (theoretical described this clearly with hard numbers).

I would prefer if we had a system to pay devs and other workers of the DAC in BitUSD (or other BitCurrencies) and just allow them to buy up as much BTS as they wish (and can afford) with their excess BitUSD. I appreciate theoretical's attempt at finding a solution to this problem, even though I don't like this particular solution compared to alternatives.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 09:06:43 pm by arhag »

Offline fluxer555

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That sounds reasonable. You have my support theoretical +5%

Offline theoretical

Can you say how much you received in total as pay (BTS, BTC, USD) and how long you have been working full time so things can be put into perspective?

How much I make is a very personal question.  I don't usually like to answer it.  But I think I must be transparent about this if I want shareholders to vote for additional delegates, so I will go ahead and say.

EDIT:  Redacted, apparently being transparent is causing PR problems.  I don't really understand the issue, but for now I'm going to remove the exact accounting until I can discuss with bytemaster and others exactly what the issue is.

This exact analysis took me quite a while to prepare, which I could have spent writing code.  Which is a prime example of

demanding excessive accountability to the point of hindering productivity.

especially given that the exact answer came out pretty much the same as my back-of-the-envelope estimate of

I plan to start a campaign for 1-2 additional 100% delegate(s) sometime in February or early March.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 06:15:42 pm by theoretical »
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Offline Gentso1

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I think if you just lay out what you have gotten so far it will be simply and easy for people to see what you should be getting.

Most people understand that average pay for a developer is a 100-150k a year. So why not start with a simple this is what I have been given, this is what I have done and this is what I want and you will most likely get all the answers you want. This will give you some piece of mind for the future and let the community know what your services are costing.

Offline NewMine

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I think you are misunderstanding my intentions.  My intentions are for developers to be well compensated and error on the side of over compensation.  The penny pinchers I was referring to are those who are trying to nickel and dime developers and demanding excessive accountability to the point of hindering productivity.

I have provided complete transparency on the bonus each developer received so that people would not overcompensate developers with a large bonus + paid position. 

I want to make my own intentions clear as well.  It's not my intention to soak the community for the year-end bonus from AGS funds and additional 100% delegate(s).  Rather, my problem is that the AGS bonus will only last a couple months at the current exchange rate, and I want to be reasonably sure that I'll still be able to eat when it runs out, even if BTS hasn't gone to the moon by then.

Despite the tax accounting of the bonus, I think the community will be unlikely to support any future delegate proposal which does not treat the bonus as an advance payment of my 2015 funding.  Thus, even though I am not contractually obligated to do so, I currently plan on sticking around for at least 2-3 months with a single delegate regardless of the outcome of this discussion.

Then I plan to start a campaign for 1-2 additional 100% delegate(s) sometime in February or early March.  At that time I will provide a detailed accounting to the community, showing that my bonus has run out and I do in fact need the additional delegate(s) to continue to receive a competitive salary, and also including a detailed list of my recent contributions.

Note that most other developers received a much larger bonus, and will not be in that situation at the same time.

Wait. You just got $17K bonus and you have a 100% delegate raking around $2k per month? Plus, I assume you got $100K/yr prorated for however many months you were on I3/AGS payroll and you are publicly complaining that you think you won't be able to eat in a fewmonths?

Is this your only job? Or Did you quit a job to do this project?

Offline theoretical

I think you are misunderstanding my intentions.  My intentions are for developers to be well compensated and error on the side of over compensation.  The penny pinchers I was referring to are those who are trying to nickel and dime developers and demanding excessive accountability to the point of hindering productivity.

I have provided complete transparency on the bonus each developer received so that people would not overcompensate developers with a large bonus + paid position. 

I want to make my own intentions clear as well.  It's not my intention to soak the community for the year-end bonus from AGS funds and additional 100% delegate(s).  Rather, my problem is that the AGS bonus will only last a couple months at the current exchange rate, and I want to be reasonably sure that I'll still be able to eat when it runs out, even if BTS hasn't gone to the moon by then.

Despite the tax accounting of the bonus, I think the community will be unlikely to support any future delegate proposal which does not treat the bonus as an advance payment of my 2015 funding.  Thus, even though I am not contractually obligated to do so, I currently plan on sticking around for at least 2-3 months with a single delegate regardless of the outcome of this discussion.

Then I plan to start a campaign for 1-2 additional 100% delegate(s) sometime in February or early March.  At that time I will provide a detailed accounting to the community, showing that my bonus has run out and I do in fact need the additional delegate(s) to continue to receive a competitive salary, and also including a detailed list of my recent contributions.

Edit:  This plan is on hold until I can discuss things with bytemaster in person and decide what I should do.

Note that most other developers received a much larger bonus, and will not be in that situation at the same time.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 06:12:17 pm by theoretical »
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Offline santaclause102

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So I guess I would say that being paid is more important, since I'll probably eventually leave if I'm not getting paid enough, even though I love the work.  Does that make sense?
Can you say how much you received in total as pay (BTS, BTC, USD) and how long you have been working full time so things can be put into perspective?

Offline theoretical

I have no problem with developers asking for additional delegate slots if one slot doesn't pay enough.

This is the main issue.  Some discussion in the other thread led me to believe that multiple 100% delegate registration for developers was being discouraged due to increased centralization.  This thread started out as a technical proposal for mechanics that would achieve the same economic outcome for developers as multiple delegate registration, without the drawback of increased centralization.

I have provided complete transparency on the bonus each developer received so that people would not overcompensate developers with a large bonus + paid position. 

Transparency in AGS usage is good, especially as regards the bonus.

I had no problem advancing you the funds to register your paid delegate nor trusting you with a no-strings-attached bonus

I was more using this as an example to illustrate how meager my BTS holdings actually are.

I think everyone values you and you will have no problem maintaining a good income while you have support of the community.

I hope that's the case, I've been active on this forum and trying to be sure my contributions are public.

I am against any kind of commitment to vote for you.  People have a right to vote how they think is best when they think it.

Understandable.  It sets a bad precedent if delegates aren't continuously held accountable.
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Offline theoretical

Just trying to understand the dev mindset more.  At the moment, what factors motivate you to work full time on the project and can you quantify how much each factor matters to you?

What matters most to me is how interesting the problems we have are, how understanding and improving the code requires knowledge of a lot of diverse stuff from low-level computer hackery (one intermittent crash I successfully debugged involved tracing through the Bitshares client one assembly language instruction at a time), cryptographic mathematics, economic theory.  When I took an introductory macroeconomics course (in college years ago), I never imagined a career in software development would one day lead to effectively being an influential advisor to a central bank!

But the problem is that my personal financial situation isn't the greatest, and I feel some pressure to be sure I'm getting paid a fair market salary.

So I guess I would say that being paid is more important, since I'll probably eventually leave if I'm not getting paid enough, even though I love the work.  Does that make sense?
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Offline fluxer555

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In theory , if your contribution is big enough that somehow you think the project can not go to the moon without you , then (y-x) would be really huge .

Or, you can think of it as possibly:

- Without you: moon
- With you: alpha centauri

Offline btswildpig

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Core developers have a large enough stake that they now get "automatic bonuses"  if the value of that stake goes up as a result of their efforts.   The incentives are aligned. 

Assume for the moment I did have a large stake.  Then I have two choices:

(a) Leave and watch my stake grow x% based on the efforts of other developers
(b) Stay and watch my stake grow y% based on the efforts of myself and other developers combined

My effective salary is then (y-x)% times my stake, plus income from any delegate(s) I operate.

I am not sure that (y-x)% is large enough even if my stake is large.

In theory , if your contribution is big enough that somehow you think the project can not go to the moon without you , then (y-x) would be really huge .
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Offline carpet ride

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Core developers have a large enough stake that they now get "automatic bonuses"  if the value of that stake goes up as a result of their efforts.   The incentives are aligned. 

Assume for the moment I did have a large stake.  Then I have two choices:

(a) Leave and watch my stake grow x% based on the efforts of other developers
(b) Stay and watch my stake grow y% based on the efforts of myself and other developers combined

My effective salary is then (y-x)% times my stake, plus income from any delegate(s) I operate.

I am not sure that (y-x)% is large enough even if my stake is large.

Just trying to understand the dev mindset more.  At the moment, what factors motivate you to work full time on the project and can you quantify how much each factor matters to you?
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