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Offline bytemaster

« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 11:02:29 AM by cass »
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Offline monsterer

Re: The Most Decentralized Proof of Stake System [BLOG POST]
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2015, 09:31:26 AM »
You should take a look at this research into NXT forging, where it shows the number of actual forgers is mostly above 200: https://nxtforum.org/general/network-analysis/ which is roughly twice as decentralised as the 101 delegates.
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Offline bytemaster

Re: The Most Decentralized Proof of Stake System [BLOG POST]
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2015, 09:38:15 AM »
You should take a look at this research into NXT forging, where it shows the number of actual forgers is mostly above 200: https://nxtforum.org/general/network-analysis/ which is roughly twice as decentralised as the 101 delegates.

Yes... but what is the distribution... did 1 guy produce 99% and the other 199 produce 1%?   

For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline btswildpig

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Re: The Most Decentralized Proof of Stake System [BLOG POST]
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2015, 09:42:57 AM »
Some guy ask me to ask this question :

Can BTS add UDP protocol to enhance the stability  of the network ?
Because the current TCP only protocol can not perform well when the network situation fluctuates even for a small period of time .
这个是私人账号,表达的一切言论均不代表任何团队和任何人。This is my personal account , anything I said with this account will be my opinion alone and has nothing to do with any group.

Offline emski

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Re: The Most Decentralized Proof of Stake System [BLOG POST]
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2015, 09:46:53 AM »
You should take a look at this research into NXT forging, where it shows the number of actual forgers is mostly above 200: https://nxtforum.org/general/network-analysis/ which is roughly twice as decentralised as the 101 delegates.

Yes... but what is the distribution... did 1 guy produce 99% and the other 199 produce 1%?

Given the (not so) recent events of buyouts of PTS/DNS/VOTE? decided solely by developers it should be accounted for points in favor of centralisation for Bitshares.
I'm in no way judging or accusing but until there is a vote inside the blockchain for such important decisions and it is demonstrated to work - bitshares remain a little bit more centralised in my mind.
I'm not saying this cannot happen to other project though but the fact that it happened to bitshares and currently there is no voting mechanism inplace is a little troubling.

Offline bytemaster

Re: The Most Decentralized Proof of Stake System [BLOG POST]
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2015, 09:47:08 AM »
Some guy ask me to ask this question :

Can BTS add UDP protocol to enhance the stability  of the network ?
Because the current TCP only protocol can not perform well when the network situation fluctuates even for a small period of time .

Sure.. it is on the TODO list.  This seems off topic. 
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline bytemaster

Re: The Most Decentralized Proof of Stake System [BLOG POST]
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2015, 09:50:19 AM »
You should take a look at this research into NXT forging, where it shows the number of actual forgers is mostly above 200: https://nxtforum.org/general/network-analysis/ which is roughly twice as decentralised as the 101 delegates.

Yes... but what is the distribution... did 1 guy produce 99% and the other 199 produce 1%?

Given the (not so) recent events of buyouts of PTS/DNS/VOTE? decided solely by developers it should be accounted for points in favor of centralisation for Bitshares.
I'm in no way judging or accusing but until there is a vote inside the blockchain for such important decisions and it is demonstrated to work - bitshares remain a little bit more centralised in my mind.
I'm not saying this cannot happen to other project though but the fact that it happened to bitshares and currently there is no voting mechanism inplace is a little troubling.

The core developers of any young alt-system have the ability to direct the project however they wish.  Including Nxt and Peercoin.    If the project is not mature and needs love and care of a group of dedicated developers then it will always be centralized.

What you described is not a property of DPOS, it is a property of social relationships and economics.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline monsterer

Re: The Most Decentralized Proof of Stake System [BLOG POST]
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2015, 10:07:50 AM »
You should take a look at this research into NXT forging, where it shows the number of actual forgers is mostly above 200: https://nxtforum.org/general/network-analysis/ which is roughly twice as decentralised as the 101 delegates.

Yes... but what is the distribution... did 1 guy produce 99% and the other 199 produce 1%?

I think your article would carry more weight if it contained these stats, with referenced research.
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Offline CLains

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Re: The Most Decentralized Proof of Stake System [BLOG POST]
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2015, 10:19:54 AM »
Great post! You are really hitting it home with these articles, and I think it will have a huge impact in the following months as the insight you provide trickles down into the crypto community.

The weak points of the article is 1) lack of real data regarding PPC and NXT. If anyone could dig this up, it would really give the article a boost, and 2) the switch to talking about "in theory" 100% approval for Delegates after mainly doing practical analysis. These are really minor points.

The flow of the article is really good as it takes something complex but essential for everyone in this space and makes it easily comprehensible. In the PPC/NXT section however I feel this powerful clarity stumbling a bit in the following sentences,

"This means Peercoin and Nxt would need to generate about $36,000 in transaction fees per year or about 1 transaction per second at a minimum."

"Because transaction fees are distributed proportional to balance, we can assume that anyone with less than 1% of the stake will not be able to produce profitably and thereby be excluded from the consensus process."

These two sentences went a little too fast for me. Maybe unpacking them will ease the flow?

"steeling* profits" typo

Offline MrJeans

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Re: The Most Decentralized Proof of Stake System [BLOG POST]
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2015, 10:32:51 AM »
What a great read. Really enjoying absorbing the logic in these blogs.  :)
Gets my brain up and running in the mornings

Offline santaclause102

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Re: The Most Decentralized Proof of Stake System [BLOG POST]
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2015, 01:44:41 PM »
"This means Peercoin and Nxt would need to generate about $36,000 in transaction fees per year or about 1 transaction per second at a minimum."

Isn't an assumption about the height of the tx fee necessary here? 

Quote
Nxt, Peercoin, and likely Ethereum would all depend upon a wealthy elite with enough stake to profitably validate the network.
From what the article has provided as information up to this point and with no information about what security mechanism Ethereum will use it isn't true for ethereum (just creates unnecessary hostility).
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 01:55:23 PM by delulo »

Offline Ötzi

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Re: The Most Decentralized Proof of Stake System [BLOG POST]
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2015, 02:09:43 PM »
Network costs in Peercoin are not paid by minters, but by everybody who holds stake without taking part in the minting, because they miss out on the 1% reward. Unlike in Nxt, Peercoin does not reward minters with the transactions fees, but with new coins. Transaction fees get destroyed.

Also, I can run a Peercoin and an NXT client on the same machine, cutting costs in half.

Peercoin can also be run on a Raspberrry Pi, which consumes way less than $30 a month in electricity costs. I can also use a machine to mint that is running anyway for other purposes.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 05:58:07 PM by Ötzi »

Offline bytemaster

Re: The Most Decentralized Proof of Stake System [BLOG POST]
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2015, 02:26:26 PM »
At scale you cannot run it on a pi.  Bandwidth costs eat majority of costs.   Subsidizing costs via inflation just changed who pays, it does not get rid of costs. 
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline bytemaster

Re: The Most Decentralized Proof of Stake System [BLOG POST]
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2015, 02:27:48 PM »
Can you run a full btc node on a pi?
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
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Offline emski

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Re: The Most Decentralized Proof of Stake System [BLOG POST]
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2015, 03:24:13 PM »
Can you run a full btc node on a pi?

Can you do that for bitshares ?

 

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