Author [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: Nothing at Stake - Nothing to Fear [BLOG POST]  (Read 583 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline bytemaster

« Last Edit: January 09, 2015, 11:02:13 AM by cass »
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline arhag

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1214
    • View Profile
    • My posts on Steem
  • BTS: arhag
  • GitHub: arhag
Re: Nothing at Stake - Nothing to Fear [BLOG POST]
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2015, 03:50:27 AM »
+5% Good start.

I think the arguments will have to get more detailed and address the ridiculousness of successfully pulling off certain specific attacks with economic analysis included in order to convince certain Bitcoiners. But this is a good beginning at tearing down this Nothing-at-Stake argument PoW supporters always bring up.

Offline werneo

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 305
    • View Profile
    • chronicle of the precession of simulacra
  • BTS: werneo
Re: Nothing at Stake - Nothing to Fear [BLOG POST]
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2015, 05:06:56 AM »
Nice argument.


EDITS:

Block chains are all about public data and transparency. Everyone who has been online and maintained connection with the real public chain has no reason to trust or even consider an alternative chain that challenges the public record. It is indisputable which chain is the real chain and which is a secret the impostor.

What this means is that the “Nothing-at-Stake” attack can only be carried out against a new client with no prior knowledge. [consistent use of hyphens]

99% Ninety-nine percent of all businesses accepting payments will be using full clients that keep in sync at all times. [you don't start a sentence with a number]

Those that spout Nothing-at-Stake...

You have nothing to fear from the so-called Nothing-at-Stake attack.  Let's [not lets] talk about the numerous risks of centralizing mining pools that have already executed a double spend attack on Bitcoin.  Let's [not lets] talk about economic sustainability.  Let's  [not lets] look at the plank in the eye of Proof of Work before considering the relative spec of in Proof of Stake.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2015, 05:12:19 AM by werneo »

Offline Ander

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3507
    • View Profile
  • BTS: Ander
Re: Nothing at Stake - Nothing to Fear [BLOG POST]
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2015, 05:51:55 PM »
I think that this post is part 1 of the discussion and needs to be fleshed out a lot more in parts 2-5. :) 

I have talked to several Bitcoin enthusiasts who think that nothing at stake is a problem for DPoS, and it is going to take a lengthy technical discussion to even start to convince them otherwise.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline vbuterin

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 32
    • View Profile
Re: Nothing at Stake - Nothing to Fear [BLOG POST]
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2015, 07:12:51 PM »
I wrote about this two months ago:

https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/11/25/proof-stake-learned-love-weak-subjectivity/

Basically, it is quite possible to create a consensus algorithm which imitates PoW in its objectivity properties _except_ in the case of users that turn their clients on less than once every few months. There is also a need to get a "trusted hash" at setup, but that's not a substantial increase in trust IMO; users already trust their software clients, and you can apply the exact same social-proof model that we use to weed out bad clients to trusted hashes, arguably even more easily, since a 32-byte hash is much more obviously incorrect if it is incorrect than a big huge software program.

Offline bytemaster

Re: Nothing at Stake - Nothing to Fear [BLOG POST]
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2015, 07:14:28 PM »
I wrote about this two months ago:

https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/11/25/proof-stake-learned-love-weak-subjectivity/

Basically, it is quite possible to create a consensus algorithm which imitates PoW in its objectivity properties _except_ in the case of users that turn their clients on less than once every few months. There is also a need to get a "trusted hash" at setup, but that's not a substantial increase in trust IMO; users already trust their software clients, and you can apply the exact same social-proof model that we use to weed out bad clients to trusted hashes, arguably even more easily, since a 32-byte hash is much more obviously incorrect if it is incorrect than a big huge software program.

I saw your post and thought it was quite good.   I will probably add a few links to it where appropriate.
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

 

Google+