Author Topic: Guys can we stop shitting on nubits  (Read 5974 times)

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Offline Damelon

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PS because of nice guys like him we never should shut our mouths when we recognize big risks on other projects...

Never!

I've been known to go head to head with our devs and members myself if I consider something a bad idea.
Pointing out flaws and asking questions is important.
Of course it's not nice to hear someone pointing out something you hadn't considered. Needs to be done, sometimes, though.

Offline btswildpig

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Community Members are going to say a lot of different things in a lot of different places...that's the nature of each of us being a community member...

If anything, this just reinforces the need for someone (or someones) with professional PR experience to run a delegate and be responsible for delivering the official (read: polished, pc) Bitshares message.

If we want mass adoption and wild success, our community needs to do many, many more of the things a real company would do.

The thing about PR is that , assuming I'm the PR manager , I released a statement  which can be viewed as PC .  Then someone in the core dev team post a different story  .  Then both of the story will be "official" in the eyes of the world , no matter how many time we stress that "this is personal opinion" .

Part of being the PR delegate would be communicating with Bytemaster and the core devs very closely on a regular basis so that the message from any one of them is uniform - even in off the cuff posts.

tried , couldn't work , unless I don't sleep for 24 hours and don't spend time on toilet  .  :P
这个是私人账号,表达的一切言论均不代表任何团队和任何人。This is my personal account , anything I said with this account will be my opinion alone and has nothing to do with any group.

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Community Members are going to say a lot of different things in a lot of different places...that's the nature of each of us being a community member...

If anything, this just reinforces the need for someone (or someones) with professional PR experience to run a delegate and be responsible for delivering the official (read: polished, pc) Bitshares message.

If we want mass adoption and wild success, our community needs to do many, many more of the things a real company would do.

The thing about PR is that , assuming I'm the PR manager , I released a statement  which can be viewed as PC .  Then someone in the core dev team post a different story  .  Then both of the story will be "official" in the eyes of the world , no matter how many time we stress that "this is personal opinion" .

Part of being the PR delegate would be communicating with Bytemaster and the core devs very closely on a regular basis so that the message from any one of them is uniform - even in off the cuff posts.

Offline btswildpig

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Community Members are going to say a lot of different things in a lot of different places...that's the nature of each of us being a community member...

If anything, this just reinforces the need for someone (or someones) with professional PR experience to run a delegate and be responsible for delivering the official (read: polished, pc) Bitshares message.

If we want mass adoption and wild success, our community needs to do many, many more of the things a real company would do.

The thing about PR is that , assuming I'm the PR manager , I released a statement  which can be viewed as PC .  Then someone in the core dev team post a different story  .  Then both of the story will be "official" in the eyes of the world , no matter how many time we stress that "this is personal opinion" .
这个是私人账号,表达的一切言论均不代表任何团队和任何人。This is my personal account , anything I said with this account will be my opinion alone and has nothing to do with any group.

Offline liondani

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To get a 1st-hand perspective of what our recent NuBits-bashing is like, go over to the Nxt forum and try to start a discussion on BitShares. The mindless tribalistic hatred you will experience is something we should be very careful not to dish out to our competitors.

Well-thought-out criticism is great, but whatever we do, we should never act like the Nxt folks.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

Sorry, but that's álso a generalisation :)
Some obviously do, and that's their problem.

Others (which is most probably the silent majority) are interested in both Nxt, Bitshares and a few others systems, too.

One of the problems is that the people who like to shout (in ány community) shout very loudly, up to the point where communities look like they are made up of a group of shouting baboons at time.

That happens on Bitcointalk, Nxt forum and no doubt you at times have the same.

I am admin on the Nxt forum, and no, I do not hate Bitshares. Neither do any of my colleagues. I may have my doubts about some things, but am open to being persuaded, like any sane person would be. I lurk here and also read along. It's only normal to do so.

"the Nxt folks" do not exist. Any community is diverse and will include nice and less nice people.

Welcome Damelon on board!
Nice you're around! :)

 +5% +5% +5%

Welcome Damelon  ;)

PS because of nice guys like him we never should shut our mouths when we recognize big risks on other projects...

TurkeyLeg

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Community Members are going to say a lot of different things in a lot of different places...that's the nature of each of us being a community member...

If anything, this just reinforces the need for someone (or someones) with professional PR experience to run a delegate and be responsible for delivering the official (read: polished, pc) Bitshares message.

If we want mass adoption and wild success, our community needs to do many, many more of the things a real company would do.

Offline hpenvy2

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I'm not looking to be the Robinhood of crypto, I'm looking for consistent action that increases value to investors. BM's revised blog about NuBits was fine, bigger fish to fry than draw more attention to competitors.

I've always dismissed NuBits until this community started constantly talking about them. I've now dug through their forum and found a few FUTURE proposals interesting. Not enough to diversify, but still makes me wonder how much traffic we are are pushing that way.

Everyone is free to do as they please, I just see it as a low value activity.  If we saw the same passion in the Open Challenge to BM thread as we do talking about competitors, we would be in a very different place.

« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 01:03:15 am by hpenvy2 »

Offline fuzzy

It makes you look desperate and threatened.

Dan's blog posts were intended to communicate structural problems he saw in nubits. Everyone else took it as a green light to start more or less slandering their project.

It is clear they don't have malicious intent. You might disagree about whether their stuff can work or not, heck you might even feel a moral obligation to protect investors, but the right answer is to calmly point out structural problems.

Here is a positive example:  http://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/2smt81/proof_that_nubits_fractional_reserve_get_out_now/cnr0gke

Here is a negative example:  http://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/2smt81/proof_that_nubits_fractional_reserve_get_out_now/cnr1z0g
+5%  for cooperation and fear rejection

What makes us look weak is apologizing for saying what is right and bowing into social pressures to be politically correct.  I think we really need to recognize that conflict to a degree is a natural thing to have when competing in any way. The only thing we should ever apologize for isnlying to others about a competitor and spreading real FUD (not FUD based on truth). 

When I call out technologies that are potentially harmful to other people it is not because they are competition but because if they are widely adopted they stand to hurt many people and enrich a select few whoknow the truth and choose not to say it to benefit themselves or out of sheer ignorance. 

There are other solid competitors out there. NXT has respectable tech, for instance, but NHZ is a fork of NXT that has a far better distribution overall.  I like both of them and actually think the level of centralization of NXT makes it grow faster...but carries with it other risks. 

NXT and NHZ are solid investments that are unlikely in the long term to hurt investors (user issued assets are different here).  Accordingly I am invested in those techs.  However we really need to remember that remaining silent about investments we wouldnt touch with a ten foot pole only hurts everyone in the long run.

I honestly dont even agree that it is a bad thing to call someone out because they are pushing people to invest in dangerous tech...

We need to be careful in this place.  There is a reason why beyond bitcoin hangouts are open town hall style events...because they are meant to ensure even critical opinions on the bitshares project are voiced. What if I told people not to complain about justified concerns during these hangouts to avoid the perception of us warring amongst ourselves?  How many issues would have never been resolved and how much further behind would we be? Even more....how much less would you trust bytemaster?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2015, 10:45:19 pm by fuzzy »
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Offline MrJeans

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It really pushed my buttons when I saw the Bitshares logo when they said "so how are Nubits better than other digital currencies". >:( I would like to see them do a comparison between Nubits and bitUSD.

Offline cass

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To get a 1st-hand perspective of what our recent NuBits-bashing is like, go over to the Nxt forum and try to start a discussion on BitShares. The mindless tribalistic hatred you will experience is something we should be very careful not to dish out to our competitors.

Well-thought-out criticism is great, but whatever we do, we should never act like the Nxt folks.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

Sorry, but that's álso a generalisation :)
Some obviously do, and that's their problem.

Others (which is most probably the silent majority) are interested in both Nxt, Bitshares and a few others systems, too.

One of the problems is that the people who like to shout (in ány community) shout very loudly, up to the point where communities look like they are made up of a group of shouting baboons at time.

That happens on Bitcointalk, Nxt forum and no doubt you at times have the same.

I am admin on the Nxt forum, and no, I do not hate Bitshares. Neither do any of my colleagues. I may have my doubts about some things, but am open to being persuaded, like any sane person would be. I lurk here and also read along. It's only normal to do so.

"the Nxt folks" do not exist. Any community is diverse and will include nice and less nice people.

Welcome Damelon on board!
Nice you're around! :)


█║▌║║█  - - -  The quieter you become, the more you are able to hear  - - -  █║▌║║█

Offline vegolino

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It makes you look desperate and threatened.

Dan's blog posts were intended to communicate structural problems he saw in nubits. Everyone else took it as a green light to start more or less slandering their project.

It is clear they don't have malicious intent. You might disagree about whether their stuff can work or not, heck you might even feel a moral obligation to protect investors, but the right answer is to calmly point out structural problems.

Here is a positive example:  http://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/2smt81/proof_that_nubits_fractional_reserve_get_out_now/cnr0gke

Here is a negative example:  http://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/2smt81/proof_that_nubits_fractional_reserve_get_out_now/cnr1z0g
+5%  for cooperation and fear rejection

Offline Damelon

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One of the problems is that the people who like to shout (in ány community) shout very loudly, up to the point where communities look like they are made up of a group of shouting baboons at time.

Please don't try to dress it up. I have visited Nxtforums back when I was interested, and I saw members, including higher ranking ones supporting and backslapping each other over CoolSchool's antics. I didn't see any of your non-baboons say anything to the contrary.

Before here I was with Worldcoin (was one of the interim committee members) because of the vibrant community. Here I was drawn to BM's vision and philosophy. Maybe you'll think that me souring over NXT for the community was a stupid move for any investor, but I like to be involved in projects which are positive.

Indeed, we dó have a good laugh when 2kool posts. Mostly because of the outrageous way he puts criticism over the top. I myself rather enjoy that, especially because it's so utterly way over the top that it's hard to take with anything else than a pinch of salt. We also remove posts that go way over the top to our trash part of the forums. However, usually we don't, not even if they are critical of Nxt.

We have a few trolls on both BCT and Twitter who do exactly the same about Nxt. Most of óur people also go up in flames when that happens. I've never really understood that reaction. What do they think is going to happen? That they are going to convince someone who took the time to craft such outrageous posts? Seems rather unlikely.

I see both the good and the bad in our community. My own experience obviously is more positive than negative, otherwise I wouldn't be around anymore. For you, the balance tips the other way. And that's fine.

As to posting criticisms to our respective projects by going to each other's forums: I see that as an exercise in futility. That's like going onto a building site where people are hard at work, pointing to the artists rendition of the project and shouting "Your building sucks!". At that point it would be better to run, and with good reason.

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One of the problems is that the people who like to shout (in ány community) shout very loudly, up to the point where communities look like they are made up of a group of shouting baboons at time.

Please don't try to dress it up. I have visited Nxtforums back when I was interested, and I saw members, including higher ranking ones supporting and backslapping each other over CoolSchool's antics. I didn't see any of your non-baboons say anything to the contrary.

Before here I was with Worldcoin (was one of the interim committee members) because of the vibrant community. Here I was drawn to BM's vision and philosophy. Maybe you'll think that me souring over NXT for the community was a stupid move for any investor, but I like to be involved in projects which are positive.

Offline gamey

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This makes sense:
"Bad mouthing the competition may come out of frustration; you believe you can provide a genuinely better product or service but are having difficulty conveying it. You may even feel some comments are perfectly innocent; perhaps you’ve heard some horror stories or know for a fact you deliver a better service in some areas, but the reality is that buyers are looking for reasons to buy from you, not reasons why not to buy from someone else! By resorting to competitor-bashing, it puts you in to a weak position, undermining what you are saying and thereby making your comments counter-productive." http://www.business2community.com/strategy/bad-mouthing-competition-help-hinder-sales-0658482


Looking forward a few months NuBITS will probably be completely off our radar as we compete against new and improved projects that actually matter. From a value standpoint, it only makes sense to foster an ongoing positive reputation for BitShares.
On the other hand, how would anyone know what makes you special if you don't frame your strengths appropriately?  Not everyone is a market geek.



These conversations are endlessly amusing to me.  What you have is a vocal minority complaining about a vocal minority and everyone else drawing conclusions about the quiet majority. 

What I do know is effective is complaining about how others behave because it tends to make a reality for anyone who doesn't already have an opinion.  Whats that mean?  I don't know but there is almost no downside to doing this.

I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline mint chocolate chip

This makes sense:
"Bad mouthing the competition may come out of frustration; you believe you can provide a genuinely better product or service but are having difficulty conveying it. You may even feel some comments are perfectly innocent; perhaps you’ve heard some horror stories or know for a fact you deliver a better service in some areas, but the reality is that buyers are looking for reasons to buy from you, not reasons why not to buy from someone else! By resorting to competitor-bashing, it puts you in to a weak position, undermining what you are saying and thereby making your comments counter-productive." http://www.business2community.com/strategy/bad-mouthing-competition-help-hinder-sales-0658482


Looking forward a few months NuBITS will probably be completely off our radar as we compete against new and improved projects that actually matter. From a value standpoint, it only makes sense to foster an ongoing positive reputation for BitShares.

Offline biophil

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To get a 1st-hand perspective of what our recent NuBits-bashing is like, go over to the Nxt forum and try to start a discussion on BitShares. The mindless tribalistic hatred you will experience is something we should be very careful not to dish out to our competitors.

Well-thought-out criticism is great, but whatever we do, we should never act like the Nxt folks.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

Sorry, but that's álso a generalisation :)
Some obviously do, and that's their problem.

Others (which is most probably the silent majority) are interested in both Nxt, Bitshares and a few others systems, too.

One of the problems is that the people who like to shout (in ány community) shout very loudly, up to the point where communities look like they are made up of a group of shouting baboons at time.

That happens on Bitcointalk, Nxt forum and no doubt you at times have the same.

I am admin on the Nxt forum, and no, I do not hate Bitshares. Neither do any of my colleagues. I may have my doubts about some things, but am open to being persuaded, like any sane person would be. I lurk here and also read along. It's only normal to do so.

"the Nxt folks" do not exist. Any community is diverse and will include nice and less nice people.

Welcome, Damelon!

I realize that when I talk about "the Nxt folks," I'm mostly talking about 2Kool4Skewl. It's what you said - the people who shout loudly are the ones who the community becomes known for, and there's nothing that the "good" community members can do about that. I know as well as anybody that we have "the BitShares folks" too.

I guess I was trying to put in a word to help people be less like 2Kool4Skewl and/or tonyk (one of our loudmouths around here), and I'm sorry that I implicated the good people at Nxt. Don't worry, I really do know that you aren't all that way!
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Offline bytemaster

It was actually a coincidence That I posted that on their single largest daily gain. I didn't notice their game until after I had published.   I thought the timing was perfect.   

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Offline santaclause102

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To get a 1st-hand perspective of what our recent NuBits-bashing is like, go over to the Nxt forum and try to start a discussion on BitShares. The mindless tribalistic hatred you will experience is something we should be very careful not to dish out to our competitors.

Well-thought-out criticism is great, but whatever we do, we should never act like the Nxt folks.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

Sorry, but that's álso a generalisation :)
Some obviously do, and that's their problem.

Others (which is most probably the silent majority) are interested in both Nxt, Bitshares and a few others systems, too.

One of the problems is that the people who like to shout (in ány community) shout very loudly, up to the point where communities look like they are made up of a group of shouting baboons at time.

That happens on Bitcointalk, Nxt forum and no doubt you at times have the same.

I am admin on the Nxt forum, and no, I do not hate Bitshares. Neither do any of my colleagues. I may have my doubts about some things, but am open to being persuaded, like any sane person would be. I lurk here and also read along. It's only normal to do so.

"the Nxt folks" do not exist. Any community is diverse and will include nice and less nice people.
Now everyone can test his position on how to best convince others:
Would you rather take a second look at NXT and listen to the doubts Damelon has about Bitshares when he come across as friendly and rational like this or would you rather listen to some angry and aggressive next guy that tries to threaten Bitshares?

Offline Damelon

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To get a 1st-hand perspective of what our recent NuBits-bashing is like, go over to the Nxt forum and try to start a discussion on BitShares. The mindless tribalistic hatred you will experience is something we should be very careful not to dish out to our competitors.

Well-thought-out criticism is great, but whatever we do, we should never act like the Nxt folks.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

Sorry, but that's álso a generalisation :)
Some obviously do, and that's their problem.

Others (which is most probably the silent majority) are interested in both Nxt, Bitshares and a few others systems, too.

One of the problems is that the people who like to shout (in ány community) shout very loudly, up to the point where communities look like they are made up of a group of shouting baboons at time.

That happens on Bitcointalk, Nxt forum and no doubt you at times have the same.

I am admin on the Nxt forum, and no, I do not hate Bitshares. Neither do any of my colleagues. I may have my doubts about some things, but am open to being persuaded, like any sane person would be. I lurk here and also read along. It's only normal to do so.

"the Nxt folks" do not exist. Any community is diverse and will include nice and less nice people.


Offline biophil

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To get a 1st-hand perspective of what our recent NuBits-bashing is like, go over to the Nxt forum and try to start a discussion on BitShares. The mindless tribalistic hatred you will experience is something we should be very careful not to dish out to our competitors.

Well-thought-out criticism is great, but whatever we do, we should never act like the Nxt folks.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

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Offline santaclause102

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I honestly can't take them seriously when it didn't even occur to them that they have to hedge their bitcoin exposure until after they lost 100's of thousands of dollars during the crash.

It's downright criminal when you combine it with deceptive marketing like this that doesn't even mention that risks exist and tries to paint the peg as something eternal and unbreakable: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_imtRPCKCg

I'm tired of bitshares getting overshadowed by shitty altcoins with flashy, pump n dumpy marketing. I look forward to watching them crash and burn, hopefully as soon as possible.

Edit: I deleted the post toast linked to because I have to admit it was pretty fucking dumb and bad PR. To paraphrase what I said "we'll copy your nubots, and we will hedge because we're not retarded, and we will use a sound asset that is cryptographically backed by highly liquid collateral"
I see your good intention and I also wonder about how irrational a market can be at times.

The question is how will nubits fanboys perceive it and how outsiders will perceive it. I bet that both of these groups are better convinced by behavior that can be expected from people that focus on content rather than personal accusation or threatening others (to convince them).
The two examples toast posted above are a great demonstration of this. 

Remember that people who do not know enough about the content (pegged assets) will judge the winner of the conversation by how discussants treat other people (and other implicit behavioral traits that reflect on the intellect and social health of someone).

The challenge is to combine provocation with adequate behavior that reflects well on us.

Quote
What about those who were Goxxed? Or the people who were predicting the 2008 collapse?  Were they doing a disservice to their name and those who listened? 

When we risk always being PR friendly, we take a step in the direction of complicity.  Now don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with having a PR guy who comes out and tries to put out the fires, but there is also nothing wrong with organic, rational and respectful debate.  It certainly is a balancing act, and I understand both your side and toasts...but I do not think we should be so intent on not shaking things up that we say nothing about projects with unsound fundamentals....
Why is being friendly and being controversial / calling things what they are a contradiction?

This http://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/2smt81/proof_that_nubits_fractional_reserve_get_out_now/cnr1z0g doesnt sound like a "organic, rational and respectful debate"

Shake things up but stay "superior" / on top by not getting emotional and by not attacking others personally. If someone has to attack personally or gets emotional it's a sign (especially for the calm outsider that is not involved in such a disucssion) that that person ran out of arguments.

https://discuss.nubits.com/t/apologies-from-a-bitshares-guy/1146  well written   +5%
« Last Edit: January 17, 2015, 12:29:26 am by delulo »

Offline fuzzy

I agree, and I think that when we started attacking Nubits was a significant cause of the downtrend back in septembet.  It made us look very unprofessional and incompetent.  It still does, every time it happens.

Even if Nubits fails epically, people still will not reward us for saying Nubits will collapse. Thats not how things work.  No one likes the person who hated on something, even if they are proven right.

What about those who were Goxxed?  Or the people who were predicting the 2008 collapse?  Were they doing a disservice to their name and those who listened? 

When we risk always being PR friendly, we take a step in the direction of complicity.  Now don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with having a PR guy who comes out and tries to put out the fires, but there is also nothing wrong with organic, rational and respectful debate.  It certainly is a balancing act, and I understand both your side and toasts...but I do not think we should be so intent on not shaking things up that we say nothing about projects with unsound fundamentals....
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Offline Ander

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I agree, and I think that when we started attacking Nubits was a significant cause of the downtrend back in septembet.  It made us look very unprofessional and incompetent.  It still does, every time it happens.

Even if Nubits fails epically, people still will not reward us for saying Nubits will collapse. Thats not how things work.  No one likes the person who hated on something, even if they are proven right.
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Offline fuzzy

I honestly can't take them seriously when it didn't even occur to them that they have to hedge their bitcoin exposure until after they lost 100's of thousands of dollars during the crash.

It's downright criminal when you combine it with deceptive marketing like this that doesn't even mention that risks exist and tries to paint the peg as something eternal and unbreakable: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_imtRPCKCg

I'm tired of bitshares getting overshadowed by shitty altcoins with flashy, pump n dumpy marketing. I look forward to watching them crash and burn, hopefully as soon as possible.

I for one think there is nothing wrong with calling out a system that would hurt people if it weren't called out.  If you look on twitter and in other places you will see nubits and all other competitors doing the same thing with us so this isn't a one-sided thing--its the nature of the game.  Besides, this controversy is doing a great deal for our name recognition.   

Someone posted to me something about how Pepsi never comes out attacking Coca Cola, but simply tries to make a better cola.  In defense of this "go along to get along" mentality, it definitely proves valuable for both, but then again when competitors are unwilling to point out the flaws in one another's structure they do no favors to the little guy.  It is a function of the competition, both the pretty and the ugly sides of it, that tends to form a protective layer for customers. 

In my opinion if we are too afraid to call out a dangerous scheme when we see one, we are no better than the current system where MSNBC tries to tell people to buy into a stock market at all time highs.  This may not be open collusion but the effect is the same...so I am for Rune's confrontation. 

Now if he was spreading pure FUD that has no basis in fact...it would be a completely different story.  However, that is not what he is doing.  Just my two cents...and let us hope that rather than flame us for calling them out, they choose to evolve their system to one that benefits its holders and all ecosystems to which it is tied as opposed to the house of cards they are currently building.
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Offline Rune

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I honestly can't take them seriously when it didn't even occur to them that they have to hedge their bitcoin exposure until after they lost 100's of thousands of dollars during the crash.

It's downright criminal when you combine it with deceptive marketing like this that doesn't even mention that risks exist and tries to paint the peg as something eternal and unbreakable: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_imtRPCKCg

I'm tired of bitshares getting overshadowed by shitty altcoins with flashy, pump n dumpy marketing. I look forward to watching them crash and burn, hopefully as soon as possible.

Edit: I deleted the post toast linked to because I have to admit it was pretty fucking dumb and bad PR. To paraphrase what I said "we'll copy your nubots, and we will hedge because we're not retarded, and we will use a sound asset that is cryptographically backed by highly liquid collateral"
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 11:48:22 pm by Rune »

Offline hpenvy2

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 +5%

I have nothing to add, that says it all.

Offline toast

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It makes you look desperate and threatened.

Dan's blog posts were intended to communicate structural problems he saw in nubits. Everyone else took it as a green light to start more or less slandering their project.

It is clear they don't have malicious intent. You might disagree about whether their stuff can work or not, heck you might even feel a moral obligation to protect investors, but the right answer is to calmly point out structural problems.

Here is a positive example:  http://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/2smt81/proof_that_nubits_fractional_reserve_get_out_now/cnr0gke

Here is a negative example:  http://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/2smt81/proof_that_nubits_fractional_reserve_get_out_now/cnr1z0g
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.