Up to 27 100% delegates. Really?

[toast]

This will be easier to address when delegates are reduced to block producers and all inflation to fund projects is done via proposals with escrows. Until then the low voter participation will make it easier for bad delegates to get and stay in.

People need to use "filler" delegates more aggressively so that an elected delegate actually represents majority approval. Like one guy runs several delegates for a low pay and people fill their recommendation list up with his delegates.

[fuzzy]

Where is the outrage for BTC miners not doing any marketing or development to further BTC? They sign blocks, the minimum requirement of a delegate, and take 100% pay. What they don't dump to pay for power and infrastructure goes straight into their pockets.

So BTC has higher inflation and 100% delegates with zero job requirements other than signing blocks. This is the gold standard we're held to?

Dont ask for rational discussion riverhead. Im sllwly coming to the realization that newmine only has an account here to disrupt and spread unnecessary FUD.  Everyone who is here should recognize that this is the first iteration of something as beautiful as bitshares.

Everythin wont be perfect, but at least it is economically superior to literally every other tech out there.  He expects perfection the first iteration which shows a complete lack of rationality.

[Riverhead]

Where is the outrage for BTC miners not doing any marketing or development to further BTC? They sign blocks, the minimum requirement of a delegate, and take 100% pay. What they don't dump to pay for power and infrastructure goes straight into their pockets.

So BTC has higher inflation and 100% delegates with zero job requirements other than signing blocks. This is the gold standard we're held to?

[jae208]

I will hold out a few months more, but from what I have seen so far it seems self-funding with Delegates are working like a charm.

I have yet to see any tangible evidence that proves bitshares wouldn't be in the exact same spot had there been no 100% delegates. I have yet to see any evidence of anything beyond the status quo in October 2014.

Marketing delegates with no marketing results. No offense guys. I know you all talk and theorize about the possibilities but nothing has panned out so far.  A pretty good indicator is the subReddit subscribers or lack thereof. Yeah, yeah, yeah we waiting for 1.0. You cant sell a product before its released (Video Games, Movies, BitReserve, iPhones....  )

Developers would be doing the exact same thing had they not been a 100% delegate. Otherwise there high hopes of huge windfalls from their enormous holding would have zero chance of coming to fruition.

Gateway delegates have not produced any fiat to BTS gateway. Still producing a gateway using BTC which already existed and still exists had there not been a 100% delegate.

As I have stated before, Bitcoin is in the spot BitShares wants to be in. BTC did not need what all of you propose is necessary to grow BitShares. It happened because BTC holders wanted to grow their holdings or make a buck of the potential.

You guys realize that BitShares is more like a welfare program with its 100% delegates. 

but but... Austrian economics!

[fluxer555]

Incredibly we are STILL below the hard fork supply, almost 3 months later.

Nice try. I think the only reason you are under is because of all the burned bts when the share cap was 2 billion. Add the pre merger burns and we are probably over.

No need to guess, if you've been paying attention:

http://bitsharesblocks.com/charts/supply

Change in supply since the hardfork: -211,517.62 BTS

[NewMine]

Incredibly we are STILL below the hard fork supply, almost 3 months later.

Nice try. I think the only reason you are under is because of all the burned bts when the share cap was 2 billion. Add the pre merger burns and we are probably over.

[Ander]

Incredibly we are STILL below the hard fork supply, almost 3 months later.

[bitmarley]

BTW, I'd recommend every delegate to fill in some data into the public json data. Some weeks ago we came up with a consensus about the protocol:

http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Delegate/PublicData

Example script to do so:
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/xeroc/pytshares/master/setPublicData.py   ### use with caution as the payrate is part of it!

Shouldn't this be a required part of the process rather than being optional?

[robrigo]

http://bitsharesblocks.com/charts/supply

"Total Supply of BTS" graph. It's interesting to watch the slope of that graph naturally increase over time as more paid delegates come on board. We definitely need to keep the downward pressure high to mitigate these effects, looks like it has been a wash so far. Will it stay below the January 1st high as more users join and use the network? Stay tuned.

[NewMine]

New mine also ignores the fact that so far the supply is down and had yet to surpass 2.5 billion. 

Also everyone would be looking for work rather than focus on development.

So your millions of personal shares wouldnt be enough incentive to churn something out? And your recent bonus of $50K isnt enough to buy your time for a few extra months to get 1.0 out seeming as everyone is holding their breath for a market cap jump upon its arrival?


Looks like a steady increase over the last 4 minutes.....

Code: [Select]

> blockchain_calculate_supply BTS

2,498,526,616.14493 BTS
>> blockchain_calculate_supply BTS

2,498,526,564.64493 BTS
>> blockchain_calculate_supply BTS

2,498,526,506.74493 BTS
>> blockchain_calculate_supply BTS

2,498,526,497.74493 BTS
>> blockchain_calculate_supply BTS

2,498,526,493.24493 BTS
>> blockchain_calculate_supply BTS

2,498,526,490.24493 BTS]

And then another 4 minutes. Up a thousand shares in under 10 minutes.

Code: [Select]

>> blockchain_calculate_supply BTS

2,498,527,138.64493 BTS
>> blockchain_calculate_supply BTS

2,498,527,088.64493 BTS
>> blockchain_calculate_supply BTS

2,498,527,085.64493 BTS
>> blockchain_calculate_supply BTS

2,498,527,084.14493 BTS]

[CLains]

New mine also ignores the fact that so far the supply is down and had yet to surpass 2.5 billion. 

Also everyone would be looking for work rather than focus on development.

 

[CLains]

Read the last double newsletter NewMine to get an idea of how much stuff is happening.

http://us3.campaign-archive1.com/?u=ac6976e87d9e9f0eac4bbf19c&id=1f981f6040
http://us3.campaign-archive1.com/?u=ac6976e87d9e9f0eac4bbf19c&id=da7e2e91a3

Things are only accelerating, but we are still a couple months early before people looking in see the results of all this. Delegate pay is not sufficient for people to outright quit their jobs, so it goes to spare time contributions from a number of people who are getting increasingly involved and are launching their own businesses that are synergetic with BitShares. That you do not realize the potential of this incentive structure amazes me -  the second BitShares goes up a mere 10x 100+ people can quit their jobs and work full time expanding the infrastructure. There is an incredible amount of stuff that needs to be done to expand crypto into global industries, and this is the most groundbreaking and decentralized way to do it. 

[bytemaster]

New mine also ignores the fact that so far the supply is down and had yet to surpass 2.5 billion. 

Also everyone would be looking for work rather than focus on development.   

[fuzzy]

I will hold out a few months more, but from what I have seen so far it seems self-funding with Delegates are working like a charm.

I have yet to see any tangible evidence that proves bitshares wouldn't be in the exact same spot had there been no 100% delegates. I have yet to see any evidence of anything beyond the status quo in October 2014.

Marketing delegates with no marketing results. No offense guys. I know you all talk and theorize about the possibilities but nothing has panned out so far.  A pretty good indicator is the subReddit subscribers or lack thereof. Yeah, yeah, yeah we waiting for 1.0. You cant sell a product before its released (Video Games, Movies, BitReserve, iPhones....  )

Developers would be doing the exact same thing had they not been a 100% delegate. Otherwise there high hopes of huge windfalls from their enormous holding would have zero chance of coming to fruition.

Gateway delegates have not produced any fiat to BTS gateway. Still producing a gateway using BTC which already existed and still exists had there not been a 100% delegate.

As I have stated before, Bitcoin is in the spot BitShares wants to be in. BTC did not need what all of you propose is necessary to grow BitShares. It happened because BTC holders wanted to grow their holdings or make a buck of the potential.

You guys realize that BitShares is more like a welfare program with its 100% delegates. 

Then just wait and see how far imptoved just the beyond bitcoin hangouts are when I can pay a team to help.  Then watch as marketin initiatives start gettin capitalized.  Newmine there is a thin line between being realistic and pessimistic. 
A little capital goes a long way ...

[fluxer555]

As I have stated before, Bitcoin is in the spot BitShares wants to be in. BTC did not need what all of you propose is necessary to grow BitShares. It happened because BTC holders wanted to grow their holdings or make a buck of the potential.

Bitcoin was able to bootstrap itself, because it had years of no competition. We don't have that luxury.

[oco101]

@NewMine what happen with your "sharedrop" plan to save us all

[Rune]

I will hold out a few months more, but from what I have seen so far it seems self-funding with Delegates are working like a charm.

As I have stated before, Bitcoin is in the spot BitShares wants to be in. BTC did not need what all of you propose is necessary to grow BitShares. It happened because BTC holders wanted to grow their holdings or make a buck of the potential.

Bitcoin won't be in the spot bitshares is in with ~25 100% delegates until there's been another 2 reward halvings.

[onceuponatime]

I will hold out a few months more, but from what I have seen so far it seems self-funding with Delegates are working like a charm.

I have yet to see any tangible evidence that proves bitshares wouldn't be in the exact same spot had there been no 100% delegates. I have yet to see any evidence of anything beyond the status quo in October 2014.

Marketing delegates with no marketing results. No offense guys. I know you all talk and theorize about the possibilities but nothing has panned out so far.  A pretty good indicator is the subReddit subscribers or lack thereof. Yeah, yeah, yeah we waiting for 1.0. You cant sell a product before its released (Video Games, Movies, BitReserve, iPhones....  )

Developers would be doing the exact same thing had they not been a 100% delegate. Otherwise there high hopes of huge windfalls from their enormous holding would have zero chance of coming to fruition.

Gateway delegates have not produced any fiat to BTS gateway. Still producing a gateway using BTC which already existed and still exists had there not been a 100% delegate.

As I have stated before, Bitcoin is in the spot BitShares wants to be in. BTC did not need what all of you propose is necessary to grow BitShares. It happened because BTC holders wanted to grow their holdings or make a buck of the potential.

You guys realize that BitShares is more like a welfare program with its 100% delegates. 

And the purpose of your post is ......? (ie. Why do you spend your time posting here, or anywhere, about bitshares? Do you value your time at zero?

[NewMine]

I will hold out a few months more, but from what I have seen so far it seems self-funding with Delegates are working like a charm.

I have yet to see any tangible evidence that proves bitshares wouldn't be in the exact same spot had there been no 100% delegates. I have yet to see any evidence of anything beyond the status quo in October 2014.

Marketing delegates with no marketing results. No offense guys. I know you all talk and theorize about the possibilities but nothing has panned out so far.  A pretty good indicator is the subReddit subscribers or lack thereof. Yeah, yeah, yeah we waiting for 1.0. You cant sell a product before its released (Video Games, Movies, BitReserve, iPhones....  )

Developers would be doing the exact same thing had they not been a 100% delegate. Otherwise there high hopes of huge windfalls from their enormous holding would have zero chance of coming to fruition.

Gateway delegates have not produced any fiat to BTS gateway. Still producing a gateway using BTC which already existed and still exists had there not been a 100% delegate.

As I have stated before, Bitcoin is in the spot BitShares wants to be in. BTC did not need what all of you propose is necessary to grow BitShares. It happened because BTC holders wanted to grow their holdings or make a buck of the potential.

You guys realize that BitShares is more like a welfare program with its 100% delegates. 

[CLains]

I will hold out a few months more, but from what I have seen so far it seems self-funding with Delegates are working like a charm.

[fuzzy]

This is just one of the functions we tend to take part in with our delegate hangouts.  Anyone can attend and ask questions. There is an initial "interview"but in the future hangouts will focus in project updates for those voted in..in addition.  Of course doing all these is time consuming..and even moreso when we are trying to make content that can be used to promote bitshares in addition to providing that service.  So it cannot, unfortunately, be free because as the DAC grows so too will grow the number of delegates fighting for positions and thus delegate hangouts themselves will be occuring probably nearly every day..and editing the content for "show quality" takes approximately 3x the amount of time than the recording time.

We will not need a group to audit at that time though because the competitors of incumbants will be in the best position to do so.  It will then be the job of the community to choose.  If we have auditors...who audits them?  What keeps them from being bought off?

Just one more reason to support the beyond bitcoin efforts moving forward in this community. 

[Riverhead]

A lot of time is spent posting messages trying to counter the FUD spewed on this and other forums. That time should be part of pr/marketing delegate reports.

Your BTS at work.

Sent from my Timex Sinclair

[TurkeyLeg]

I dont think we need a delegate to look after the other delegates.  I think this is something that investors should want to do.  The community should be doing this (and will be), without needing to be paid.

 

[xeroc]

BTW, I'd recommend every delegate to fill in some data into the public json data. Some weeks ago we came up with a consensus about the protocol:

http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/Delegate/PublicData

Example script to do so:
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/xeroc/pytshares/master/setPublicData.py   ### use with caution as the payrate is part of it!

[cube]

A few delegates away from hitting a million shares per week dilution. Plus the vesting share dilution every day will equal a zero or negative growth over the next few years. All the while, bitcoin sidechains and centralized wannabes slowly gain faster acceptance.  And ethereum too.

What are all you delegates doing exactly? We even have a new delegate inspector delegate proposal. WTF? 

Id like to propose a 100% delegate to oversee the inspector delegate.
Or
How about a BS delegate? This delegate's primary job would be to make wild and amazing promises that never see the light of day. Just as every promise is supposed to be realized, I will flood you guys with excuses and more promises for future dates. Rinse repeat. The whole time this is going on I will trade my BTS for bitUSD giving the bitISD ever so much more liquidity on an ongoing basis until I have gathered enough bitUSD to buy a vacation home on cryptofresh.

You sound like a good candidate for the auditor delegate. 

[btswildpig]

A few delegates away from hitting a million shares per week dilution. Plus the vesting share dilution every day will equal a zero or negative growth over the next few years. All the while, bitcoin sidechains and centralized wannabes slowly gain faster acceptance.  And ethereum too.

What are all you delegates doing exactly? We even have a new delegate inspector delegate proposal. WTF? 

Id like to propose a 100% delegate to oversee the inspector delegate.
Or
How about a BS delegate? This delegate's primary job would be to make wild and amazing promises that never see the light of day. Just as every promise is supposed to be realized, I will flood you guys with excuses and more promises for future dates. Rinse repeat. The whole time this is going on I will trade my BTS for bitUSD giving the bitISD ever so much more liquidity on an ongoing basis until I have gathered enough bitUSD to buy a vacation home on cryptofresh.

seriously , you should improve your reading skills . Read the so-called "new delegate inspector delegate proposal" again .

It's a grass root marketing delegate of 15 people who are doing huge efforts in China offering to pay a small compensation out of their pay to such a position to review the delegates . 

No one is asking for a delegate for such an inspection .

[Rune]

I dont think we need a delegate to look after the other delegates.  I think this is something that investors should want to do.  The community should be doing this (and will be), without needing to be paid.

At scale there should absolutely be HR delegates that provide reports, metrics, etc. about all delegates, all their projects and all their employees. No delegate should go unscrutinized and all delegate expenses should be 100% accounted for. Shareholders are meant to make the executive decisions - doing actual research and reports at the massive scale the bitshares bureacracy will reach at 5 billion (or just 500 million really) will require loads of resources that we can't expect individuals to donate.  Of course ultimately there will be many situations where grassroots investigation or shareholder activism is required, and it will probably happen much more often compared to traditional publicly traded companies, but if we rely solely on altrustic shareholders doing in-depth delegate investigation in their free time we will not be able to have a functional team at scale.

Eventually yes, delegates will need to be whole organizations. 
I should say: At the present time, I dont think this is so complicated that it needs to be a paid position, it is something that we the community should be doing.

Later on if we get huge things will change.

Agree, for now delegates should be developer salary or marketing/bounty expenses (non salary) only.

[sschechter]

Id like to propose a 100% delegate to oversee the inspector delegate.

Please do so.  You're delegate fee will keep a serious developer paid for an extra two weeks

[Ander]

I dont think we need a delegate to look after the other delegates.  I think this is something that investors should want to do.  The community should be doing this (and will be), without needing to be paid.

At scale there should absolutely be HR delegates that provide reports, metrics, etc. about all delegates, all their projects and all their employees. No delegate should go unscrutinized and all delegate expenses should be 100% accounted for. Shareholders are meant to make the executive decisions - doing actual research and reports at the massive scale the bitshares bureacracy will reach at 5 billion (or just 500 million really) will require loads of resources that we can't expect individuals to donate.  Of course ultimately there will be many situations where grassroots investigation or shareholder activism is required, and it will probably happen much more often compared to traditional publicly traded companies, but if we rely solely on altrustic shareholders doing in-depth delegate investigation in their free time we will not be able to have a functional team at scale.

Eventually yes, delegates will need to be whole organizations. 
I should say: At the present time, I dont think this is so complicated that it needs to be a paid position, it is something that we the community should be doing.

Later on if we get huge things will change.

[Akado]

I dont think we need a delegate to look after the other delegates.  I think this is something that investors should want to do.  The community should be doing this (and will be), without needing to be paid.

Everyone active can be considered a "delegate inspector". You already do that by voting in/out whoever is productive to BitShares

[Rune]

I dont think we need a delegate to look after the other delegates.  I think this is something that investors should want to do.  The community should be doing this (and will be), without needing to be paid.

At scale there should absolutely be HR delegates that provide reports, metrics, etc. about all delegates, all their projects and all their employees. No delegate should go unscrutinized and all delegate expenses should be 100% accounted for. Shareholders are meant to make the executive decisions - doing actual research and reports at the massive scale the bitshares bureacracy will reach at 5 billion (or just 500 million really) will require loads of resources that we can't expect individuals to donate.  Of course ultimately there will be many situations where grassroots investigation or shareholder activism is required, and it will probably happen much more often compared to traditional publicly traded companies, but if we rely solely on altrustic shareholders doing in-depth delegate investigation in their free time we will not be able to have a functional team at scale.

[kokojie]

I dont think we need a delegate to look after the other delegates.  I think this is something that investors should want to do.  The community should be doing this (and will be), without needing to be paid.

Agreed, delegate inspector yes!, but it should be a investor initiative, not a delegate itself. Not to mention conflict of interest for a delegate inspector to also be a delegate.

[Ander]

I dont think we need a delegate to look after the other delegates.  I think this is something that investors should want to do.  The community should be doing this (and will be), without needing to be paid.

[Ander]

Glad I have your support, Newmine!


But seriously, most of these paid delegates have been in for a couple weeks now.  At this point they've only just recouped their cost to register the delegate.  I'll make excuses for them for a month.  After a month or two, its time for the worthwhile and not-worthwhile delegates to distinguish themselves from each other via results.

[Stan]

You should run for the BS delegate position. You are following my outline to a T. Otherwise Stan should hold this position.

Ha!  I knew that was coming after your last post! 

I was just sitting here counting down... 10, 9, 8 ...           

Actually, this is a more accurate description of my job:

[NewMine]

What are all you delegates doing exactly?

Its not that difficult to figure out, if you've been following along.  Hopefully we will have better tools for the uninitiated, or for those without the time or inclination to do the necessary research.

We even have a new delegate inspector delegate proposal. WTF? 

You read the proposal right?  It didn't say anything about requesting a delegate.  In fact it expressly stated not needing one.

Id like to propose a 100% delegate ...How about a BS delegate?

Well I think you have all the qualifications.  Go for it!  This would at least offer a quick learning experience on how the system works, how those most interested in the success of the system are able to keep out the trash and otherwise unproductive.

He stated "in the beginning" the person will be paid by another delegate. This leaves it wide open for a future delegate bid when the "workload" increases. Did you read the proposal?


Send 60K BTS to newmine and I will start the BS delegate campaign.

[NewMine]

Step 1 was getting people hired and working for bitshares.  We are casting our net for productive fish right now.  We are going to find some productive people and some unproductive people, that is inevitable.  Thinking that Bitshares will never hire anyone who then just takes the money and does nothing id foolish, that will occur sometimes, we jsut have to make sure we deal with it appropriately.

Step 2 will be coming soon, which is having these delegates show us what they have done in a month, and beginning to weed out those that are not producing value.  If this is successful and we can see that productive delegate remain in, while low productivity delegates get booted, then we will have a lot of confidence that the system is working, and that voting is working.

You should run for the BS delegate position. You are following my outline to a T. Otherwise Stan should hold this position.

[chryspano]

Up to 27 100% delegates. Really?

Yes, it will take some time until we have 101 100% paid delegates...

Can you imagine 101 entities working for bitshares? of course you can! 

That's why you are so pissed off! 

[Ander]

It would be nice to have a community updated page showing a short summary of who each paid delegate is, and what project they are working on.

[Xeldal]

What are all you delegates doing exactly?

Its not that difficult to figure out, if you've been following along.  Hopefully we will have better tools for the uninitiated, or for those without the time or inclination to do the necessary research.

We even have a new delegate inspector delegate proposal. WTF? 

You read the proposal right?  It didn't say anything about requesting a delegate.  In fact it expressly stated not needing one.

Id like to propose a 100% delegate ...How about a BS delegate?

Well I think you have all the qualifications.  Go for it!  This would at least offer a quick learning experience on how the system works, how those most interested in the success of the system are able to keep out the trash and otherwise unproductive.

[Ander]

Step 1 was getting people hired and working for bitshares.  We are casting our net for productive fish right now.  We are going to find some productive people and some unproductive people, that is inevitable.  Thinking that Bitshares will never hire anyone who then just takes the money and does nothing id foolish, that will occur sometimes, we jsut have to make sure we deal with it appropriately.

Step 2 will be coming soon, which is having these delegates show us what they have done in a month, and beginning to weed out those that are not producing value.  If this is successful and we can see that productive delegate remain in, while low productivity delegates get booted, then we will have a lot of confidence that the system is working, and that voting is working. 

[NewMine]

A few delegates away from hitting a million shares per week dilution. Plus the vesting share dilution every day will equal a zero or negative growth over the next few years. All the while, bitcoin sidechains and centralized wannabes slowly gain faster acceptance.  And ethereum too.

What are all you delegates doing exactly? We even have a new delegate inspector delegate proposal. WTF? 

Id like to propose a 100% delegate to oversee the inspector delegate.
Or
How about a BS delegate? This delegate's primary job would be to make wild and amazing promises that never see the light of day. Just as every promise is supposed to be realized, I will flood you guys with excuses and more promises for future dates. Rinse repeat. The whole time this is going on I will trade my BTS for bitUSD giving the bitISD ever so much more liquidity on an ongoing basis until I have gathered enough bitUSD to buy a vacation home on cryptofresh.