Author [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: 100% burn+"filler" delegates and the "cutoff" delegate  (Read 884 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline toast

100% burn+"filler" delegates and the "cutoff" delegate
« on: January 26, 2015, 08:37:42 PM »

We might be interested to see how many paid delegates are only there because shareholders cannot coordinate to elect enough low-pay delegates to force them out. Fortunately we can use delegates like proposals and measure shareholder intent.


I've made a 0% delegate:

paid-delegate-cutoff.misc.nikolai

(He's 1% right now because a wallet bug prevents me from making a transaction to make him 0% - I'll get to it)



我们或许有兴趣看到多少付费的受托人在领工资只是因为股东们没办法调集去选足够的低支付率受托人去挤走他们。幸运的是我们可以用受托人当作是提议并且去衡量股东们的想法。我已经做了一个0%受托人。


paid-delegate-cutoff.misc.nikolai
它现在是1%的支付率因为钱包当前不允许做0%的受托人,不过我会修正这个问题。

如果这个人比真正的受托人得到更多的票,就像股东们的投票在说不认可他,因为给这个受托人的投票就是给尽量多的0%受托人投票。这会让股东们在知道它们有足够的共识去改变现状的时候通过填充足够的低支付率受托人而实现改变。
« Last Edit: January 28, 2015, 02:05:58 AM by cn-members »
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline Ander

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3499
    • View Profile
  • BTS: Ander
Re: 100% burn+"filler" delegates and the "cutoff" delegate
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2015, 09:00:31 PM »
We should have more of these, shareholder choice is good.

Its great that we have lots of candidates with proposals to help grow bitshares who are getting elected, but we also need to ability to later vote out the ones who we decide arent providing enough value. 

Also, while its a very small factor, replacing 3% delegates with 0-1% delegates that also provide feeds is also good for slightly reducing dilution.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

Offline xeroc

  • Board Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12065
  • ChainSquad GmbH
    • View Profile
    • ChainSquad GmbH
  • BTS: xeroc
  • GitHub: xeroc
Gonna put you on my slate when back at the computer
Give BitShares a try! Use the http://testnet.bitshares.eu provided by http://bitshares.eu powered by ChainSquad GmbH

Offline arhag

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1213
    • View Profile
    • My posts on Steem
  • BTS: arhag
  • GitHub: arhag
Re: 100% burn+"filler" delegates and the "cutoff" delegate
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2015, 09:13:48 PM »
It is really difficult for the stakeholders to control their votes precisely to get the approval voting of the "paid-delegate-cutoff.misc.nikolai" delegate to their desired value. But I appreciate the intent despite the hacky solution.

Can we get a new UIA to automatically be allocated to a snapshot of another asset (such as BTS) by the 0.8.0 milestone along with the UIA proposal voting feature so that we can determine true BTS stakeholder consensus on any topic?

Offline toast

Re: 100% burn+"filler" delegates and the "cutoff" delegate
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2015, 09:16:20 PM »
It is really difficult for the stakeholders to control their votes precisely to get the approval voting of the "paid-delegate-cutoff.misc.nikolai" delegate to their desired value. But I appreciate the intent despite the hacky solution.

Can we get a new UIA to automatically be allocated to a snapshot of another asset (such as BTS) by the 0.8.0 milestone along with the UIA proposal voting feature so that we can determine true BTS stakeholder consensus on any topic?

we removed the requirement that stuff in the slate be a real delegate ID so that we can do opinion polls as part of the normal voting process without big changes. Using this for governance is something I will be working on
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline arhag

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1213
    • View Profile
    • My posts on Steem
  • BTS: arhag
  • GitHub: arhag
Re: 100% burn+"filler" delegates and the "cutoff" delegate
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2015, 09:17:44 PM »
we removed the requirement that stuff in the slate be a real delegate ID so that we can do opinion polls as part of the normal voting process without big changes. Using this for governance is something I will be working on

Interesting... Are there size limits on the bytes that can be stuffed in the "slate" other than the maximum transaction size?

Also, is your work on BTS governance going to include changes to blockchain consensus so that it interprets some of the data in the slate in a special "binding" way similar to how the delegate IDs are treated in a special way? Or is your definition of BTS governance to determine consensus on non-binding proposals and simply allow the delegates to execute them (perhaps through code upgrades and hard forks as necessary)?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 09:23:21 PM by arhag »

Offline toast

Re: 100% burn+"filler" delegates and the "cutoff" delegate
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2015, 09:21:44 PM »
we removed the requirement that stuff in the slate be a real delegate ID so that we can do opinion polls as part of the normal voting process without big changes. Using this for governance is something I will be working on

Interesting... Are there size limits on the bytes that can be stuffed in the "slate" other than the maximum transaction size?

You can fit 111 integers
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline arhag

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1213
    • View Profile
    • My posts on Steem
  • BTS: arhag
  • GitHub: arhag
Re: 100% burn+"filler" delegates and the "cutoff" delegate
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2015, 09:24:49 PM »
You can fit 111 integers

Wait does this mean you can either vote for delegates with your BTS stake or use the space for other voting stuff but not both at the same time?

Offline toast

Re: 100% burn+"filler" delegates and the "cutoff" delegate
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2015, 09:29:26 PM »
You can fit 111 integers

Wait does this mean you can either vote for delegates with your BTS stake or use the space for other voting stuff but not both at the same time?

You tell me
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

Offline arhag

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1213
    • View Profile
    • My posts on Steem
  • BTS: arhag
  • GitHub: arhag
Re: 100% burn+"filler" delegates and the "cutoff" delegate
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2015, 09:39:29 PM »
You can fit 111 integers

Wait does this mean you can either vote for delegates with your BTS stake or use the space for other voting stuff but not both at the same time?

You tell me

To clarify for anyone else interested in the answer to the question:

To start with, the 111 integer slots currently restricted only for delegate voting has been relaxed to either refer to a delegate or just an arbitrary int for whatever purpose (say referring to a specific proposal). So you could in theory vote for 101 delegates and have 10 extra integers for other unofficial proposal voting purposes.

Offline xeroc

  • Board Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12065
  • ChainSquad GmbH
    • View Profile
    • ChainSquad GmbH
  • BTS: xeroc
  • GitHub: xeroc
Re: 100% burn+&quot;filler&quot; delegates and the &quot;cutoff&quot; delegate
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2015, 09:44:58 PM »
You can fit 111 integers

Wait does this mean you can either vote for delegates with your BTS stake or use the space for other voting stuff but not both at the same time?

You tell me

To clarify for anyone else interested in the answer to the question:

To start with, the 111 integer slots currently restricted only for delegate voting has been relaxed to either refer to a delegate or just an arbitrary int for whatever purpose (say referring to a specific proposal). So you could in theory vote for 101 delegates and have 10 extra integers for other unofficial proposal voting purposes.
Cool .. thx for the clarification
Give BitShares a try! Use the http://testnet.bitshares.eu provided by http://bitshares.eu powered by ChainSquad GmbH

Online wackou

Re: 100% burn+"filler" delegates and the "cutoff" delegate
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2015, 09:54:34 PM »
Added you to my slate
Please vote for witness wackou! More info at http://digitalgaia.io

Offline arhag

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1213
    • View Profile
    • My posts on Steem
  • BTS: arhag
  • GitHub: arhag
Re: 100% burn+&quot;filler&quot; delegates and the &quot;cutoff&quot; delegate
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2015, 10:05:46 PM »
Gonna put you on my slate when back at the computer

Added you to my slate


Won't adding this delegate to other trusted delegates' slate compromise its entire purpose?

Don't we want stakeholders to explicitly vote for this delegate if they believe its approval rating is lower than what they think the vote-of-no-confidence threshold should be and to take away some or all of their vote if they think the approval rating is higher than what they think the threshold should be? If this is added to the slate of well established delegates, then I don't think we can really infer much from the approval rating of the "paid-delegate-cutoff.misc.nikolai" delegate, which defeats its entire purpose.

Offline wasthatawolf

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 188
    • View Profile
  • BTS: loon3
Re: 100% burn+"filler" delegates and the "cutoff" delegate
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2015, 10:21:52 PM »
Won't adding this delegate to other trusted delegates' slate compromise its entire purpose?

Don't we want stakeholders to explicitly vote for this delegate if they believe its approval rating is lower than what they think the vote-of-no-confidence threshold should be and to take away some or all of their vote if they think the approval rating is higher than what they think the threshold should be? If this is added to the slate of well established delegates, then I don't think we can really infer much from the approval rating of the "paid-delegate-cutoff.misc.nikolai" delegate, which defeats its entire purpose.

Wherever the cutoff delegate ends up will be a function of several factors: actual voter intent, overall voter participation, and the wants and needs of large stakeholders.  Trying to distinguish which factor caused it to move the most is going to be pretty difficult.

I'm not convinced this method is any better or worse than a traditional vote.

Offline toast

Re: 100% burn+&quot;filler&quot; delegates and the &quot;cutoff&quot; delegate
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2015, 11:20:56 PM »
Gonna put you on my slate when back at the computer

Added you to my slate


Won't adding this delegate to other trusted delegates' slate compromise its entire purpose?

Don't we want stakeholders to explicitly vote for this delegate if they believe its approval rating is lower than what they think the vote-of-no-confidence threshold should be and to take away some or all of their vote if they think the approval rating is higher than what they think the threshold should be? If this is added to the slate of well established delegates, then I don't think we can really infer much from the approval rating of the "paid-delegate-cutoff.misc.nikolai" delegate, which defeats its entire purpose.

That depends on what you think the role of recommendations are and how people use them. I don't think it defeats the point at all. If people know the function of this delegate then it lets us see what the intersection of stake-vote thinks, not the union. It is different when you don't have full participation
Do not use this post as information for making any important decisions. The only agreements I ever make are informal and non-binding. Take the same precautions as when dealing with a compromised account, scammer, sockpuppet, etc.

 

Google+