Author Topic: Decentraliced Dice Game is a awsome idea!  (Read 12443 times)

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Offline Empirical1.2

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Gambling and investment are generally deemed to be polar opposites.  You are going to lose the investment crowd if you introduce gambling directly into the trading interface.  Bitgold, in and of itself, is a game changer.  No one has yet to figure out how to make a genuinely digital currency that can maintain a peg to the price of gold without third party risk, until now.  That alone is a solution the world has never seen.  This product is so profound that, if done right and secured, will have ramifications throughout the world.  Market pegged assets should be the focus.  I doubt any competitor will be able to compete, even with open source code.  If the focus is on building and securing the system, then you should have no problem with adoption.

Yes BitGold is a game-changer that's why I'm also in favour of a precious metals front end specifically for that market which competes directly with BitReserve & BitGold.com  https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=13325.msg174295#msg174295

Gambling can be done on the BitShares blockchain but not necessarily visible to investment users. We have a lot of business models that need front end sites for specific target markets, not just trading and gambling is the lowest hanging fruit as we can expect existing BTS holders to gamble recreationally in similar %'s to Bitcoin holders which can really drive BitAsset growth and use.

Trading is just one of the blockchain based models BitAssets is capable of

- BitAsset Trading                - Scottrade
- BitAsset Precious Metals - Goldmoney
- BitAsset Gambling.            - 888 
- BitAsset Banking                - UBS
- BitAsset Remittance.         - MoneyGram
- BitAsset BitUSD wallet      - M-Pesa

To start with focusing on trading is fine but having a toggle on-off BitAsset gaming option in the wallet would be huge.


« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 12:10:14 pm by Empirical1.2 »
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Offline Empirical1.2

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I tend to disagree with this comparison to bitcoin getting it's foothold thanks to gambling justification. That was a LONG time ago in Internet years. this is a new age now, filled with far more regulations that have caught up. The average Internet user is more sophisticated now compared to back then.

I understand the economic benefits to some people with this... but if that is what we have to show front and center in a showroom, then the real magic of bitshares is going to be lost and detracted from.

We need more user cases. We need success stories in the ecosystem. Everything is so new and everyone expects it all to just take off overnight, but that's just not how it happens. There is a tipping point.. and as we keep on bringing on useful things that compliment the DPOS ecosystem there will come a point where it just takes off and discussions like this will not be held in the light of being some kind of Monorail savior to bitshares.


Lets be frank though. This is not something for bitshares to develop anyways. If there is a 3rd party gaming entity that wants to use the bitshares platform for their transactions there is nothing stopping them. So for all those pro-gamblers, instead of just talking about it here, you could be reaching out to various gaming places that currently user bitcoin.. include your refer id! talk with them about how they could get first mover advantage.

For OPs proposal.. sounds like a great third party project to pursue, but the client is not where it belongs. You got plenty of other channels to utilize for advertising and for the game to work through your own client or web based. If it's to be distributed, yes, it would involve running a DAC.

At the end of the day, putting a slot machine right at the same counter where you go to get your banking or investments done is just so disassociated from anything anybody has ever used it makes no sense... unless we are now making the wallet for the purpose of scooting into the casino to gamble... then thats how most will perceive this to be.

The reason it belongs on the blockchain is because gambling is one of the biggest Bitcoin industries but it's key problem is being plagued by centralised hit & run options. A blockchain based solution that removes that risk and therefore solves a key problem in a massive Bitcoin industry is huge.

BitShares doesn't have an Eric Sprott or an Halsey Minor with business experience, contacts and hundreds of millions worth of capital, what we do have though is rockstar developers who are able to create blockchain based solutions that displace a variety of centralized industries. This is actually what BitShares Super-DAC  is designed to be.

Your argument also doesn't include any figures or research, only personal feelings, nor does it counteract the argument that if PLAY (or a competitor) replicate even just the numbers of a moderately successful centralized site their turnover and BitAsset CAP will rapidly outgrow us. As the DPOS market leader they gain the network effect and then have the option to add on any of our solutions & displace BTS.

I agree at least with pursuing centralized options too as Bitcoin is still making gambling headlines

The largest poker site in the world is looking into Bitcoin - http://www.pokersites.com/news/pokerstars-reportedly-pushing-bitcoin-igaming-4480

The largest online SuperBowl bets this year are done in Bitcoin - http://www.igamingbusiness.com/press/biggest-bets-super-bowl-can-only-be-placed-bitcoin

Quote
“This is groundbreaking for high rollers who want a lot of action but haven’t been able to bet as much as they would want due to the cost of transferring large amounts of currency to online betting sites. Online sportsbooks can’t take very large credit card deposits as the risk of fraud is too high. These risks don’t exist with bitcoin. It’s a very elegant solution.” said Dennis Laudrup, Head of Marketing at Cloudbet. Cloudbet is also expecting its new limits will encourage a number of high stakes bettors who are unfamiliar with bitcoin to consider its potential.

However a key current concern is volatility (21/01/2015)

http://www.online-casinos.com/news/13074-online-gambling-experiencing-bitcoin-struggle

Quote
The question being asked by those using Bitcoin for gambling is whether the declining or volatile nature of the currency is worth the stress. The punter who uses the virtual coinage may be thinking they have won at the casino or card room but have lost on the currency value. This may impact the volume of bets placed with Bitcoin at online gambling sites that offer the coins as fair trade. The following of the ups and downs of the money for the online gambling operators must be a constant threat to profitability and sustainable growth
« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 10:11:55 am by Empirical1.2 »
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Offline Helikopterben

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Gambling and investment are generally deemed to be polar opposites.  You are going to lose the investment crowd if you introduce gambling directly into the trading interface.  Bitgold, in and of itself, is a game changer.  No one has yet to figure out how to make a genuinely digital currency that can maintain a peg to the price of gold without third party risk, until now.  That alone is a solution the world has never seen.  This product is so profound that, if done right and secured, will have ramifications throughout the world.  Market pegged assets should be the focus.  I doubt any competitor will be able to compete, even with open source code.  If the focus is on building and securing the system, then you should have no problem with adoption.

Offline Helikopterben

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I have always thought of crypto projects as a "you build it, they will come" model.  Look how far bitcoin has come with no (or very little) marketing in the beginning stages, and arguably negative marketing with the allegations of ponzi scheme, beanie babies, tulip bulbs, terrorism, child pornography, ect, ect, ect.  Marketing at this stage is largely unecessary.

Agree largely with what you are saying, except I would argue that it was mining that was actually a huge and expensive marketing effort for BTC

Im not sure how mining correlates to marketing.  Perhaps the novelty of mining attracted new users, but mining in and of itself is not a good marketing tool, IMO.

Offline BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode

I tend to disagree with this comparison to bitcoin getting it's foothold thanks to gambling justification. That was a LONG time ago in Internet years. this is a new age now, filled with far more regulations that have caught up. The average Internet user is more sophisticated now compared to back then.

I understand the economic benefits to some people with this... but if that is what we have to show front and center in a showroom, then the real magic of bitshares is going to be lost and detracted from.

We need more user cases. We need success stories in the ecosystem. Everything is so new and everyone expects it all to just take off overnight, but that's just not how it happens. There is a tipping point.. and as we keep on bringing on useful things that compliment the DPOS ecosystem there will come a point where it just takes off and discussions like this will not be held in the light of being some kind of Monorail savior to bitshares.


Lets be frank though. This is not something for bitshares to develop anyways. If there is a 3rd party gaming entity that wants to use the bitshares platform for their transactions there is nothing stopping them. So for all those pro-gamblers, instead of just talking about it here, you could be reaching out to various gaming places that currently user bitcoin.. include your refer id! talk with them about how they could get first mover advantage.

For OPs proposal.. sounds like a great third party project to pursue, but the client is not where it belongs. You got plenty of other channels to utilize for advertising and for the game to work through your own client or web based. If it's to be distributed, yes, it would involve running a DAC.

At the end of the day, putting a slot machine right at the same counter where you go to get your banking or investments done is just so disassociated from anything anybody has ever used it makes no sense... unless we are now making the wallet for the purpose of scooting into the casino to gamble... then thats how most will perceive this to be.
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Offline hpenvy2

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I have always thought of crypto projects as a "you build it, they will come" model.  Look how far bitcoin has come with no (or very little) marketing in the beginning stages, and arguably negative marketing with the allegations of ponzi scheme, beanie babies, tulip bulbs, terrorism, child pornography, ect, ect, ect.  Marketing at this stage is largely unecessary.

/rant

Bitcoin got a major boost in the early stages from gambling. Marketing was largely unnecessary in the beginning because they were the standard.  People refer to Bitcoin like Americans typically call all different cotton swabs Q-Tip.  I understand where you are coming from, I just don't agree that build it and they will come will work in this crowded market.  With Ethereum breathing down your neck, I don't think a passive approach will do well for us.

Offline Empirical1.1

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This is a bad idea.  Professional investors and traders want to be able to go to a site like this and manage their accounts.  They will be turned off if they see a tab for candy crush.  IMO, if bitshares is to be a replacement for the nasdaq, then this should be the end result:  to have a professional trading site where end users have complete control over their assets with as much security as possible.  I realize getting this right is tricky and will take time, but distractions such as these games are unnecessary. 

I have always thought of crypto projects as a "you build it, they will come" model.  Look how far bitcoin has come with no (or very little) marketing in the beginning stages, and arguably negative marketing with the allegations of ponzi scheme, beanie babies, tulip bulbs, terrorism, child pornography, ect, ect, ect.  Marketing at this stage is largely unecessary.

IMO you guys are panicking because the price is down and you put too much emphasis on your ranking on coinmarketcap.  Bitshares adoption and price is naturally progressing at a nice pace.  Going from essentially 0 to to a market cap of $25 mil in 1.5 years is phenomenal, and the project is nowhere near ready for mainstream yet.  Yes it hit $100 mil and corrected, but that is completely normal for a market and cannot be avoided.  Just look at early charts of Microsoft or Apple.  They had many rallies followed by long, drawn out corrections.  Everyone knows how volatile bitcoin has been over the years.  Markets move in cycles and IMO we are near the bottom of a cycle in crypto right now.  Prices and adoption should begin to rise and along with it more investment and higher pay for delegates.  This technology is too important for you guys to get distracted and not focus on the big picture.  Bitshares has the potential to be a global game-changer.  Don't get frustrated by a down cycle and start thinking that something is wrong or that silly games need to be added to the trading interface.  Perhaps build a separate client for games and gambling or another chain if possible, but keep bitshares as a pristine, trust-minimized value storage and transfer network.  I have personally given my investment in this 2 years to show good progress because I realize Rome wasn't built in a day and it is going to take time to make this happen.  Ignor all the negativity and focus on the task at had.  The global implications of this project are too important.

/rant

If you look at the numbers or analyse how Bitcoin gained adoption you'll see the huge role gambling played and continues to play. Up to last year gambling accounted for up to 50% of all Bitcoin transactions too.

Our BitAsset growth is fairly stagnant, by all measurements PLAY will rapidly dwarf BTS if they offer gambling.  Unlike VOTE & BitShares inflating which I tried to talk everyone out of and if anything have a 5% annual fee on unclaimed stakes, in this case there's potentially the option to divest into PLAY at least so it's not the end of the world for me if people don't get this.




Offline carpet ride

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I have always thought of crypto projects as a "you build it, they will come" model.  Look how far bitcoin has come with no (or very little) marketing in the beginning stages, and arguably negative marketing with the allegations of ponzi scheme, beanie babies, tulip bulbs, terrorism, child pornography, ect, ect, ect.  Marketing at this stage is largely unecessary.

Agree largely with what you are saying, except I would argue that it was mining that was actually a huge and expensive marketing effort for BTC
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Offline Helikopterben

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This is a bad idea.  Professional investors and traders want to be able to go to a site like this and manage their accounts.  They will be turned off if they see a tab for candy crush.  IMO, if bitshares is to be a replacement for the nasdaq, then this should be the end result:  to have a professional trading site where end users have complete control over their assets with as much security as possible.  I realize getting this right is tricky and will take time, but distractions such as these games are unnecessary. 

I have always thought of crypto projects as a "you build it, they will come" model.  Look how far bitcoin has come with no (or very little) marketing in the beginning stages, and arguably negative marketing with the allegations of ponzi scheme, beanie babies, tulip bulbs, terrorism, child pornography, ect, ect, ect.  Marketing at this stage is largely unecessary.

IMO you guys are panicking because the price is down and you put too much emphasis on your ranking on coinmarketcap.  Bitshares adoption and price is naturally progressing at a nice pace.  Going from essentially 0 to to a market cap of $25 mil in 1.5 years is phenomenal, and the project is nowhere near ready for mainstream yet.  Yes it hit $100 mil and corrected, but that is completely normal for a market and cannot be avoided.  Just look at early charts of Microsoft or Apple.  They had many rallies followed by long, drawn out corrections.  Everyone knows how volatile bitcoin has been over the years.  Markets move in cycles and IMO we are near the bottom of a cycle in crypto right now.  Prices and adoption should begin to rise and along with it more investment and higher pay for delegates.  This technology is too important for you guys to get distracted and not focus on the big picture.  Bitshares has the potential to be a global game-changer.  Don't get frustrated by a down cycle and start thinking that something is wrong with adoption or that silly games need to be added to the trading interface.  Perhaps build a separate client for games and gambling or another chain if possible, but keep bitshares as a pristine, trust-minimized value storage and transfer network.  I have personally given my investment in this 2 years to show good progress because I realize Rome wasn't built in a day and it is going to take time to make this happen.  Ignor all the negativity and focus on the task at had.  The global implications of this project are too important.

/rant
« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 01:32:00 am by Helikopterben »

Offline monsterer

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Offline Empirical1.1

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What if a % of the funds used to "gamble" using this were actually "burned"?

Lol instead of " house always wins"...the shareholders would be the true winners. Sounds like a great idea to me.

That's a fanastic idea!!! I like it!!!  +5% +5% +5% +5%

* Put it in the blockchain
* Allow the games section to toggle on and off
* Toggle it off by default

Or, just release a different wallet that accesses that part of the blockchain

I like that solution as well.  As long as it put in the blockchain, I'm happy.

Yip, on the blockchain with the blockchain as the house would be amazing. The edge can be insignificant if it's doing the job of driving BitAsset growth, then at a later stage once BitAssets are established the house edge can be increased & generate significant profit.

This article from March 2014 says gamblers wagered over
$2 Billion on Just-Dice.com in less than 9 months.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/bitcoin-gambling-sites-fly-regulatory-radar/

Also: 
Quote
By most accounts, gambling represents between 50 and 60 percent of all Bitcoin transactions.
So it's hard to imagine BTS growing market share without being competitive in the gambling market.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 07:12:41 pm by Empirical1.1 »

Offline hpenvy2

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* Put it in the blockchain
* Allow the games section to toggle on and off
* Toggle it off by default

Or, just release a different wallet that accesses that part of the blockchain

I like that solution as well.  As long as it put in the blockchain, I'm happy.

Offline bluebit

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What if a % of the funds used to "gamble" using this were actually "burned"?

Lol instead of " house always wins"...the shareholders would be the true winners. Sounds like a great idea to me.

That's a fanastic idea!!! I like it!!!  +5% +5% +5% +5%
BTSX TipMe: bluebit

Offline fluxer555

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* Put it in the blockchain
* Allow the games section to toggle on and off
* Toggle it off by default

Or, just release a different wallet that accesses that part of the blockchain

Offline hpenvy2

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* Put it in the blockchain
* Allow the games section to toggle on and off
* Toggle it off by default