Author [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] [EN] [ZH] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: Consensus on the list of delegates  (Read 3887 times)

Offline Come-from-Beyond

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 113
    • View Profile
Consensus on the list of delegates
« on: February 01, 2015, 03:50:28 PM »

I'm trying to find out how BitShares work but some things are not clear to me. Unfortunatelly, these things are fundamental and I can't move ahead without understanding them. Could anyone answer two simple questions, please?

Do the shareholders have the same list of the delegates? If they do then how the consensus is achieved?

sumantso

  • Guest
Re: Consensus on the list of delegates
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2015, 04:05:14 PM »
I will let the smarter guys give you a proper answer rather than confuse you more with my attempts.

I wanted to know, what did you mean by 'move ahead'?

Offline cass

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4320
  • /(┬.┬)\
    • View Profile
Re: Consensus on the list of delegates
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2015, 04:07:46 PM »
Welcome Come-from-Beyond!

█║▌║║█  - - -  The quieter you become, the more you are able to hear  - - -  █║▌║║█

Offline Come-from-Beyond

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 113
    • View Profile
Re: Consensus on the list of delegates
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2015, 04:18:36 PM »
I wanted to know, what did you mean by 'move ahead'?

To dig deeper into BitShares internals.

Offline Come-from-Beyond

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 113
    • View Profile
Re: Consensus on the list of delegates
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2015, 04:19:08 PM »
Welcome Come-from-Beyond!

Thank you.

Offline speedy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1160
    • View Profile
  • BTS: speedy
Re: Consensus on the list of delegates
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2015, 04:20:46 PM »
Do the shareholders have the same list of the delegates? If they do then how the consensus is achieved?

Yes all shareholders see the same list directly from the blockchain, which you can also see here: http://bitsharesblocks.com/delegates

Votes are added up and the top 101 get in. For example from the client I can see that the top delegate is yunbi with 18.64% of all BTS voting to approve them, i.e. 465,995,430 BTS.

Offline edilliam

Re: Consensus on the list of delegates
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2015, 04:21:29 PM »
I'm trying to find out how BitShares work but some things are not clear to me. Unfortunatelly, these things are fundamental and I can't move ahead without understanding them. Could anyone answer two simple questions, please?

Do the shareholders have the same list of the delegates? If they do then how the consensus is achieved?

There are both unelected and elected delegates. BTS represents stake ("shares") in the BitShares DAC. Anybody that owns BTS can vote for their choice of delegates with their BTS. The more BTS a user has, the more votes they effectively have too. The 101 delegates that receive the most votes from this process become the elected delegates for the BitShares DAC. Users have to pay a fee to become a delegate, so not all users are necessarily delegates. Does this make sense?

Offline Come-from-Beyond

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 113
    • View Profile
Re: Consensus on the list of delegates
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2015, 06:59:02 PM »
What ensures that the shareholders agree on the list of delegates? If a delegate can be kicked off for misbehavior then the list can change instantly which is hard to achieve in a distributed system.

Offline btswildpig

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1404
    • View Profile
Re: Consensus on the list of delegates
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2015, 07:05:39 PM »
What ensures that the shareholders agree on the list of delegates? If a delegate can be kicked off for misbehavior then the list can change instantly which is hard to achieve in a distributed system.

active delegates are those who have the most approval votes before the 101 ranking .
For instance , if a guy at 101 misbehaved , some shareholders withdraw some vote , then he falls to 102 , and the one on 102 become 101 .

It's an approval voting system . So you don't need all the shareholders to kick someone out , just withdraw enough vote to let him fall out of 101 . Or add enough vote on 102 , then it can push the one on 101 out either .
« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 07:07:37 PM by btswildpig »
这个是私人账号,表达的一切言论均不代表任何团队和任何人。This is my personal account , anything I said with this account will be my opinion alone and has nothing to do with any group.

Offline robrigo

Re: Consensus on the list of delegates
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2015, 07:15:25 PM »
When an account name is registered on the blockchain, if a pay rate between 0-100 is specified then that account becomes registered as a delegate. Each delegate has a variable amount of stake voting for them. If a delegate has enough votes where the total stake voting for them is in the top 101 vote balances out of the set of registered delegates, then that delegate node will be included in each round as an active block signer. When these vote balances change, i.e. a delegate has votes revoked and are  "fired" from the top 101, each client will sync that information and reflect the new set of active 101 delegates accordingly.

So the list of delegates is a list that doesn't get any smaller, only larger, as new delegate accounts are registered. The set of active delegates is dynamic based on the amount of stake each delegate has voting for them. Anyone can change their vote and their changes will be reflected when that trx is included in the next block. To change your vote, send a transfer (to yourself for example).  There are multiple voting schemes you can specify when you transfer your stake: vote_none, vote_all, vote_random, and vote_recommended. The GUI client has a vote button to make this process simpler.

The default is "vote_recommended", which I believe means that your votes are cast based on the voting slates published by the delegates that you approve of.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 07:18:01 PM by robrigo »

Offline jshow5555

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 57
    • View Profile
Re: Consensus on the list of delegates
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2015, 07:36:06 PM »
He is asking something different...

The answer is:
-The 101 deletes with the most votes @ block n, are  put in randomly order to produce - blocks from n+a to n+a+100;

As for the value of 'a' and questions regarding the consensus who has the most votes in block 'n', you should wait for some dev to answer that, or alternatively check the code yourself.

Offline sschechter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 379
    • View Profile
Re: Consensus on the list of delegates
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2015, 07:46:06 PM »
Delegates sign blocks, just like bitcoin miners.  However, the majority of bitcoin miners don't actually sign blocks, their pool operators do.   To fully grasp the reasons why DPOS and the delegate system were designed the way it was, the best way to understand is to hear about it from the man who designed it (hint: you can't hide from economics) :

http://bytemaster.bitshares.org/article/2015/01/12/Decentralization-Scalability-and-Fault-Tolerance-of-Bitcoin/
http://bytemaster.bitshares.org/bitshares/2015/01/04/Delegated-Proof-of-Stake-vs-Proof-of-Work/
BTSX: sschechter
PTS: PvBUyPrDRkJLVXZfvWjdudRtQgv1Fcy5Qe

Offline testz

Re: Consensus on the list of delegates
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2015, 07:57:07 PM »
Welcome Come-from-Beyond!
Nice to see you here  :)

Offline Empirical1.2

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1366
    • View Profile
Re: Consensus on the list of delegates
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2015, 08:01:01 PM »
Welcome Come-from-Beyond!
Nice to see you here  :)

 +5%
If you want to take the island burn the boats

Offline Troglodactyl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 936
    • View Profile
Re: Consensus on the list of delegates
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2015, 08:06:39 PM »
I'm trying to find out how BitShares work but some things are not clear to me. Unfortunatelly, these things are fundamental and I can't move ahead without understanding them. Could anyone answer two simple questions, please?

Do the shareholders have the same list of the delegates? If they do then how the consensus is achieved?

Welcome Come-from-Beyond.

A 'delegate' is just a username registered on the blockchain with a public flag set announcing that it's a delegate and a requested pay percentage.  Everyone who has the blockchain has the same list of registered accounts, including the delegates, but they don't all vote to approve the same subset of those delegates.  Each stakeholder votes with his/her stake to approve certain delegates, and the active delegates are the 101 with the most stake approving them.  Only the active delegates produce blocks, but which delegates are active can change as rapidly as people can change their votes.  The votes are on the blockchain, so everyone knows the consensus of which delegates are active, even if they aren't voting for those delegates.

 

Google+