Please Provide bitOIL Feeds!

[xeroc]

We could create multiple market issued assets like ( Crude Oil Mar 15 (CLH15.NYM) ) and publish feeds.
But the client should be modified so that:
1 All feeds are invalid 1 day before target date.
2 All positions are closed 1 day before target date.

This is not something a delegate can do. Bitshares needs to be updated .

I prefer this solution .. let's update the bitAsset to be a derivative of a future 
will make deciding for a price feed much easier!

[emski]

We could create multiple market issued assets like ( Crude Oil Mar 15 (CLH15.NYM) ) and publish feeds.
But the client should be modified so that:
1 All feeds are invalid 1 day before target date.
2 All positions are closed 1 day before target date.

This is not something a delegate can do. Bitshares needs to be updated .

[Empirical1.2]

That chart is created by fxcm... somehow. Can you find information about what it actually represents ?

No I'm not sure. I see fxcm nearly went bankrupt two weeks ago so maybe relying on their price feed would be a bit risky.

Also I was wrong about spot prices,

http://www.etf.com/etf-education-center/21018-why-you-cant-buy-spot-oil-a-guide-to-contango-and-backwardation.html

It looks like when most places give a WTI or Brent price they referencing the front month futures contract and I don't really now how switching it to the next month and all of that works, Ander seems to understand it better.

[Rune]

I thought it had already been decided that bitOIL is WTI?

IMO it would make more sense to rename it bitWTI, since then we could add bitBRENT in the future if there's demand.

If we start using trading hubs for commodities then we can do even more interesting stuff, like bitCOPPERUK and bitSTEELSHANGHAI or that kind of stuff. Would be amazing to see a thousand active MPA's all perfectly tracking at least one trading hub per widely traded commodity.

[emski]

That chart is created by fxcm... somehow. Can you find information about what it actually represents ?

[Empirical1.2]

We should pick a particular type of oil, and a particular contract length into the future, and then have all the delegates for oil based their feed on that.

For example, "Use X particular type of oil, use the price of a futures contract that is between 1 and 3 months away from expiration".  If everyone agrees on what they are pricing then it will work.

What will happen when that "future" time comes ? Shall we stop the trading ? What happens with the feed(s) after that future point in time?

EDIT: We could include all the assets like Crude Oil Mar 15 (CLH15.NYM) , Crude Oil Jul 15 and so on. However this needs modification(s) in the software.

I agree that we should choose a particular oil type like  Crude Oil (WTI) but then you just use the spot price not a futures contract.

How do you define such price ? Each future batch is traded at different prices.

I think spot price is like cash price -  The price it costs today to have it delivered this week, that is the price the market uses I think so you just get a price feed for that.

So that is the live spot price I think

http://www.livecharts.co.uk/MarketCharts/crude.php

For gold & silver the price feeds you are using are the same they reference the spot price

Futures contracts are different, they are the price you pay now for delivery much later - 1 month/3 month etc.  and we can ignore those.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spot_contract

In finance, a spot contract, spot transaction, or simply spot, is a contract of buying or selling a commodity, security or currency for settlement (payment and delivery) on the spot date, which is normally two business days after the trade date. The settlement price (or rate) is called spot price (or spot rate).

A spot contract is in contrast with a forward contract or futures contract where contract terms are agreed now but delivery and payment will occur at a future date

[emski]

We should pick a particular type of oil, and a particular contract length into the future, and then have all the delegates for oil based their feed on that.

For example, "Use X particular type of oil, use the price of a futures contract that is between 1 and 3 months away from expiration".  If everyone agrees on what they are pricing then it will work.

What will happen when that "future" time comes ? Shall we stop the trading ? What happens with the feed(s) after that future point in time?

EDIT: We could include all the assets like Crude Oil Mar 15 (CLH15.NYM) , Crude Oil Jul 15 and so on. However this needs modification(s) in the software.

I agree that we should choose a particular oil type like  Crude Oil (WTI) but then you just use the spot price not a futures contract.

How do you define such price ? Each future batch is traded at different prices.

[Empirical1.2]

We should pick a particular type of oil, and a particular contract length into the future, and then have all the delegates for oil based their feed on that.

For example, "Use X particular type of oil, use the price of a futures contract that is between 1 and 3 months away from expiration".  If everyone agrees on what they are pricing then it will work.

What will happen when that "future" time comes ? Shall we stop the trading ? What happens with the feed(s) after that future point in time?

EDIT: We could include all the assets like Crude Oil Mar 15 (CLH15.NYM) , Crude Oil Jul 15 and so on. However this needs modification(s) in the software.

I agree that we should choose a particular oil type like  Crude Oil (WTI) but then you just use the spot price not a futures contract.

[emski]

We should pick a particular type of oil, and a particular contract length into the future, and then have all the delegates for oil based their feed on that.

For example, "Use X particular type of oil, use the price of a futures contract that is between 1 and 3 months away from expiration".  If everyone agrees on what they are pricing then it will work.

What will happen when that "future" time comes ? Shall we stop the trading ? What happens with the feed(s) after that future point in time?

EDIT: We could include all the assets like Crude Oil Mar 15 (CLH15.NYM) , Crude Oil Jul 15 and so on. However this needs modification(s) in the software.

[vegolino]

We should pick a particular type of oil, and a particular contract length into the future, and then have all the delegates for oil based their feed on that.

For example, "Use X particular type of oil, use the price of a futures contract that is between 1 and 3 months away from expiration".  If everyone agrees on what they are pricing then it will work.

 

[Ander]

We should pick a particular type of oil, and a particular contract length into the future, and then have all the delegates for oil based their feed on that.

For example, "Use X particular type of oil, use the price of a futures contract that is between 1 and 3 months away from expiration".  If everyone agrees on what they are pricing then it will work.

[emski]

Presumably, without a clear definition of the index to be used, the price would fall somewhere between the current lower WSI and slightly higher Brent crude values.

Q. If the feed is not set currently, does this mean that it is not possible to obtain BitOil at present?

It is not possible to obtain bitOil until 51 delegates provide feeds.

Ok, thanks.
http://bitsharesblocks.com/asset/info?asset=OIL

The 2 delegates currently providing a feed - and any others incoming - should gain a lot of support.

And what exactly are these delegates providing as a feed ?  What does it represent ? Where it is coming from ?

[pgbit]

Presumably, without a clear definition of the index to be used, the price would fall somewhere between the current lower WSI and slightly higher Brent crude values.

Q. If the feed is not set currently, does this mean that it is not possible to obtain BitOil at present?

It is not possible to obtain bitOil until 51 delegates provide feeds.

Ok, thanks.
http://bitsharesblocks.com/asset/info?asset=OIL

The 2 delegates currently providing a feed - and any others incoming - should gain a lot of support.

[emski]

Presumably, without a clear definition of the index to be used, the price would fall somewhere between the current lower WSI and slightly higher Brent crude values.

Q. If the feed is not set currently, does this mean that it is not possible to obtain BitOil at present?

It is not possible to obtain bitOil until 51 delegates provide feeds.

[pgbit]

Presumably, without a clear definition of the index to be used, the price would fall somewhere between the current lower WSI and slightly higher Brent crude values.

Q. If the feed is not set currently, does this mean that it is not possible to obtain BitOil at present?

[emski]

I presume these aren't useful, I don't know what you guys require but that looks live

http://www.livecharts.co.uk/MarketCharts/crude.php

That looks exactly same source as the tradingview links posted above which apparently aren't good enough.

Ahh I want to buy bitOIL too

Oops, yeah it even says 'charts by trading view'. Oh well

Perhaps I was too quick to dismiss them. This is actually a realtime spot price. I wonder how is it calculated...

UPDATE: wow it looks like USOIL is falling quickly

so let's get the market active before we reach $100/OIL again !!!   

Well that asset USOIL is a "Contract for Difference" on http://www.fxcm.com/ that has underlying asset WTI ( http://www.fxcm.com/uk/markets/cfds/symbol-guide/ ). I'm not sure how they created this feed and what it represents exactly. I doubt this resource is a good idea for a blockchain feed.
I think we should first define what bitOil should represent.

[liondani]

I presume these aren't useful, I don't know what you guys require but that looks live

http://www.livecharts.co.uk/MarketCharts/crude.php

That looks exactly same source as the tradingview links posted above which apparently aren't good enough.

Ahh I want to buy bitOIL too

Oops, yeah it even says 'charts by trading view'. Oh well

Perhaps I was too quick to dismiss them. This is actually a realtime spot price. I wonder how is it calculated...

UPDATE: wow it looks like USOIL is falling quickly

so let's get the market active before we reach $100/OIL again !!!   

[emski]

I presume these aren't useful, I don't know what you guys require but that looks live

http://www.livecharts.co.uk/MarketCharts/crude.php

That looks exactly same source as the tradingview links posted above which apparently aren't good enough.

Ahh I want to buy bitOIL too

Oops, yeah it even says 'charts by trading view'. Oh well

Perhaps I was too quick to dismiss them. This is actually a realtime spot price. I wonder how is it calculated...

UPDATE: wow it looks like USOIL is falling quickly

[Empirical1.2]

I presume these aren't useful, I don't know what you guys require but that looks live

http://www.livecharts.co.uk/MarketCharts/crude.php

That looks exactly same source as the tradingview links posted above which apparently aren't good enough.

Ahh I want to buy bitOIL too

Oops, yeah it even says 'charts by trading view'. Oh well

[LRENZ]

I presume these aren't useful, I don't know what you guys require but that looks live

http://www.livecharts.co.uk/MarketCharts/crude.php

That looks exactly same source as the tradingview links posted above which apparently aren't good enough.

Ahh I want to buy bitOIL too

[Empirical1.2]

I presume these aren't useful, I don't know what you guys require but that looks live

http://www.livecharts.co.uk/MarketCharts/crude.php

[emski]

https://www.tradingview.com/e/?symbol=USOIL
https://www.tradingview.com/e/?symbol=UKOIL

Nice find. Yea that looks good to me, as long as it's specified what the source is it works, right?

These are daily feeds. We need spot price. Spot price is defined as a future expiring at specific date (specific hub, specific OIL type). We need to update quickly the spot price due to its fluctuations. If you can suggest how could we devise the spot price without modifying the client - go on.

[vegolino]

I  would like to trade bitOIL as well. 

[teenagecheese]

https://www.tradingview.com/e/?symbol=USOIL
https://www.tradingview.com/e/?symbol=UKOIL

Nice find. Yea that looks good to me, as long as it's specified what the source is it works, right?

[pgbit]

https://www.tradingview.com/e/?symbol=USOIL
https://www.tradingview.com/e/?symbol=UKOIL

[teenagecheese]

Maybe even a derivative of crude oil price would be o.k.? Like average price at the pump for U.S....I understand that it is not directly correlated but at least it would give traders access to the market in some form.

...if that will not work and they have to use future prices, than it sounds like we have to have client development. For now probably not important enough.

[emski]

Also, would we want the future's price, or the spot price?

In current system we need the spot price. However I'm not sure how can we define it.

[julian1]

Also, would we want the future's price, or the spot price?

[emski]

The feed type is significant:

for example - can be a wide difference between:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Texas_Intermediate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brent_Crude

Thanks for the info. If that is the case, that is fine. Maybe they will need to take an average and provide that. Whatever will work is up to them to decide, I just want them to do it.

Types of OIL are significantly different and their price might not correlate.

What you are suggesting is something like a peg to multiple sources. For example if we define the price of EUC as (1/3 of EUR + 1/3 of USD + 1/3 of CNY) and all delegates agree to supply such feed => you will have a portfolio of assets. Which doesn't solve the issue with OIL feeds as they are defined as futures for a specific date.

[emski]

https://www.quandl.com/c/markets/crude-oil

Platinum and palladium prices too:
(spreadsheet cell)
=importHTML("http://www.apmex.com/","table",1)

These prices are updated daily. That is not frequent enough.
The prices that are used are futures for a specific date (15th march, 15th june .. etc) and for specific hub and for specific type of OIL ( Crude Oil Mar 15 (CLH15.NYM) ),
If we want to use the same prices we need changes into the bitshares client.
For example Crude Oil Mar 15 (CLH15.NYM) should expire after 15th march. And we should have at least 1 additional OIL asset per month.

This is not a job just for a delegate feed.

[teenagecheese]

The feed type is significant:

for example - can be a wide difference between:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Texas_Intermediate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brent_Crude

Thanks for the info. If that is the case, that is fine. Maybe they will need to take an average and provide that. Whatever will work is up to them to decide, I just want them to do it.

[pgbit]

The feed type is significant:

for example - can be a wide difference between:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Texas_Intermediate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brent_Crude

[teenagecheese]

@teenagecheese can you be more specific about the type of bitOIL you want to buy?
To what price exactly you want it to be pegged ?

I don't know the specifics, that is what I am asking for a delegate to do, figure out what feeds would be good and provide them. The two that exist are said to be "daily feeds," that sounds to be good enough to start. Obviously I would prefer the most accurate and frequent possible. The better service the feed providing delegates can provide, the better it will be.

Edit: if the delegates need more money to pay for a feed, sobeit, let them provide it and ask for higher pay to finance it.

I just want to be able to use the bitshares market to invest in oil at todays low prices (~$50/barrel). However that materializes, I don't care.

[pgbit]

https://www.quandl.com/c/markets/crude-oil

Platinum and palladium prices too:
(spreadsheet cell)
=importHTML("http://www.apmex.com/","table",1)

[emski]

@teenagecheese can you be more specific about the type of bitOIL you want to buy?
To what price exactly you want it to be pegged ?

[teenagecheese]

Yea even if it's just daily feeds I guess that would be o.k., but right now we only have two. What a joke. Hopefully the voting system advances more and lame delegates that don't even post simple feeds that are available get voted out.

This stuff will work better/happen naturally when there is more competition for delegates, but right now they need to be pushed by the core team to do things I think. We can't just rely on natural motivation when we are trying to get adoption. We need to FORCE utility.

[Rune]

I think the daily feeds are good enough for now. Delegates should update their scripts to include the daily oil feed ASAP so we can start to see a trickle of oil liquidity on the DEX.

Cryptohedge will be working to figure out the best way to get continous oil feeds from CFD and futures platforms... Once we have gold and silver up and running. Then we'll make sure gold, silver, and oil can be traded at low spreads on every bitcoin exchange.

[teenagecheese]

I really really really want to buy bitOIL. Can some delegates step up and figure out how to do this. Do it and you will get yourself higher pay. That is how this works, show value and get paid for it.

This is the problem, it is the rare person that is self motivated enough to figure this out and do it on his own drive without anyone telling them to do it. But you don't have to have that person to make this work. Instead, we NEED someone managing to actively try to get things like bitOIL implemented. Come up with the idea, put up a bounty, and recruit to get a delegate to do it. Otherwise, stuff just keeps on not happening.

And COME ON bitOIL is such easy and obvious low hanging fruit to increase adoption. Do you realize how popular oil is right now to trade? Do you realize how hard it is and how much money it takes to trade it on the real market? A lot! Get a good market for this and advertise it to crypto traders and they will jump all over it. DO IT!

This is just one example of the several things that could easily happen, but are not. We need some management and recruiting here. I'm not saying bytemaster is not doing good at what he is doing, instead, that we need an additional person to do these things.