Author Topic: How do we pay core developers competitively going forward?  (Read 7781 times)

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Offline cass

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If I go to bitshares.org, it still does not show any charts of a BitUSD:BitBTC / whatever market with any depth. If people see something claiming to be a decentralized exchange, its just a bold claim - they want to see proof that people are actually exchanging stuff with it.

Why cant bitshares.org look like this: https://yunbi.com/markets/btccny

i'm working on it!
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Offline klosure

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I think the concept of fixed pay delegates is wrong. Inflation should go to a bounty pool, and stakeholders should vote on how to allocate bounties to projects. Everyone in the community could come up with ideas and list them in the projects list for bounty allocation. Once a bounty is allocated, developers (marketers, etc.) could make proposals on how they are going to get the job done, with a list of deliverables with dates, and some rundown of why they are the right person to implement that. Once they are voted, the developer starts implementing the project, and gets paid the bounty upon completion.

This can be implemented within the current fix-pay delegates paradigm by creating bounty pool delegates whose role it to:
- send their delegate BTS pay to a common multisig bounty address
- convert BTS to bitUSD once a bounty has been voted (this prevents the USD bounty value from shrinking after the development have started) and send it back to the multisig bounty address
- pay developers
- verify and sign other similar transactions from other bounty pool delegates.

That approach has the advantage of making Bitshares developers more goal-oriented and get a more linear relationship between cost and result.

Offline speedy

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I for one find Newmine's frankness refreshing.

I disagree with him that delegate pay is dragging the project down. The price is going down simply because we havent given people an obvious reason why they should care about our product yet.

If I go to bitshares.org, it still does not show any charts of a BitUSD:BitBTC / whatever market with any depth. If people see something claiming to be a decentralized exchange, its just a bold claim - they want to see proof that people are actually exchanging stuff with it.

Why cant bitshares.org look like this: https://yunbi.com/markets/btccny

Offline NewMine

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How about they "work" on making what they already have more valuable rather than trying to suck more out of a failing system. If they have to get real jobs and work on Bitshares in their spare time, so be it. Nobody has more to gain than the Dev team. The incentive is their, they just want to eat their cake too. The productivity of the group, as it seems now, is lacking.  The supposed 1.0 launch seems to be drifting further away the more developers are added to the project.  I have a feeling if 95% of the Dev team quit today! we would see 1.0 sooner than if they all stayed on board. Meanwhile price is on a downward spiral to its all time lows at the début of BTSX when market functionality was yet to be working or proved. Good job team!  Maybe you could add 70 more developers so this project can nose dive into the graveyard and everyone here can just get on with their lives next week.  Or maybe you could go back to St Marten and find that "Great White Buffalo", or the find the killer DAC that VOTE was supposed to be,  or muster up that fellow from down under who was going to bring the Philippine remittance market, or the promised USD to BTS gateways that were coming months ago, or the infomercial (which sounds refreshing in this bleak project at this time), or you could just make up some other bullshit promise. Jesus Christ, after writing that, I can't believe I and anyone else is still involved with this. Those promises are no different than the paycoin promises.

I stop reading your nonsense at statements like the above bolded.  I'm fairly certain there are stakeholders far larger than members of the devteam.

Your basic argument is always that the developers should give away their time for free and they are greedy for not doing it.

I'm sure you have interesting things to say, but it is so smothered in your manipulative bullshit I can't even breath.
Let's be honest, you definitely read my entire comment.

What exactly am I manipulating?  Should I call an ambulance for you?

Offline onceuponatime

How about they "work" on making what they already have more valuable rather than trying to suck more out of a failing system. If they have to get real jobs and work on Bitshares in their spare time, so be it. Nobody has more to gain than the Dev team. The incentive is their, they just want to eat their cake too. The productivity of the group, as it seems now, is lacking.  The supposed 1.0 launch seems to be drifting further away the more developers are added to the project.  I have a feeling if 95% of the Dev team quit today! we would see 1.0 sooner than if they all stayed on board. Meanwhile price is on a downward spiral to its all time lows at the début of BTSX when market functionality was yet to be working or proved. Good job team!  Maybe you could add 70 more developers so this project can nose dive into the graveyard and everyone here can just get on with their lives next week.  Or maybe you could go back to St Marten and find that "Great White Buffalo", or the find the killer DAC that VOTE was supposed to be,  or muster up that fellow from down under who was going to bring the Philippine remittance market, or the promised USD to BTS gateways that were coming months ago, or the infomercial (which sounds refreshing in this bleak project at this time), or you could just make up some other bullshit promise. Jesus Christ, after writing that, I can't believe I and anyone else is still involved with this. Those promises are no different than the paycoin promises.

I've asked you before. Why ARE you still posting here? With your stated beliefs, do you value your time at zero? Obviously you have unrevealed (possibly even to yourself) motives. As they say:  "Get a life".

Offline NewMine

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How about they "work" on making what they already have more valuable rather than trying to suck more out of a failing system. If they have to get real jobs and work on Bitshares in their spare time, so be it. Nobody has more to gain than the Dev team. The incentive is their, they just want to eat their cake too. The productivity of the group, as it seems now, is lacking.  The supposed 1.0 launch seems to be drifting further away the more developers are added to the project.  I have a feeling if 95% of the Dev team quit today! we would see 1.0 sooner than if they all stayed on board. Meanwhile price is on a downward spiral to its all time lows at the début of BTSX when market functionality was yet to be working or proved. Good job team!  Maybe you could add 70 more developers so this project can nose dive into the graveyard and everyone here can just get on with their lives next week.  Or maybe you could go back to St Marten and find that "Great White Buffalo", or the find the killer DAC that VOTE was supposed to be,  or muster up that fellow from down under who was going to bring the Philippine remittance market, or the promised USD to BTS gateways that were coming months ago, or the infomercial (which sounds refreshing in this bleak project at this time), or you could just make up some other bullshit promise. Jesus Christ, after writing that, I can't believe I and anyone else is still involved with this. Those promises are no different than the paycoin promises.

Missed you comments.. ! :-*

 :'( As you go broke.

Offline gamey

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How about they "work" on making what they already have more valuable rather than trying to suck more out of a failing system. If they have to get real jobs and work on Bitshares in their spare time, so be it. Nobody has more to gain than the Dev team. The incentive is their, they just want to eat their cake too. The productivity of the group, as it seems now, is lacking.  The supposed 1.0 launch seems to be drifting further away the more developers are added to the project.  I have a feeling if 95% of the Dev team quit today! we would see 1.0 sooner than if they all stayed on board. Meanwhile price is on a downward spiral to its all time lows at the début of BTSX when market functionality was yet to be working or proved. Good job team!  Maybe you could add 70 more developers so this project can nose dive into the graveyard and everyone here can just get on with their lives next week.  Or maybe you could go back to St Marten and find that "Great White Buffalo", or the find the killer DAC that VOTE was supposed to be,  or muster up that fellow from down under who was going to bring the Philippine remittance market, or the promised USD to BTS gateways that were coming months ago, or the infomercial (which sounds refreshing in this bleak project at this time), or you could just make up some other bullshit promise. Jesus Christ, after writing that, I can't believe I and anyone else is still involved with this. Those promises are no different than the paycoin promises.

I stop reading your nonsense at statements like the above bolded.  I'm fairly certain there are stakeholders far larger than members of the devteam.

Your basic argument is always that the developers should give away their time for free and they are greedy for not doing it.

I'm sure you have interesting things to say, but it is so smothered in your manipulative bullshit I can't even breath.
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline cass

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How about they "work" on making what they already have more valuable rather than trying to suck more out of a failing system. If they have to get real jobs and work on Bitshares in their spare time, so be it. Nobody has more to gain than the Dev team. The incentive is their, they just want to eat their cake too. The productivity of the group, as it seems now, is lacking.  The supposed 1.0 launch seems to be drifting further away the more developers are added to the project.  I have a feeling if 95% of the Dev team quit today! we would see 1.0 sooner than if they all stayed on board. Meanwhile price is on a downward spiral to its all time lows at the début of BTSX when market functionality was yet to be working or proved. Good job team!  Maybe you could add 70 more developers so this project can nose dive into the graveyard and everyone here can just get on with their lives next week.  Or maybe you could go back to St Marten and find that "Great White Buffalo", or the find the killer DAC that VOTE was supposed to be,  or muster up that fellow from down under who was going to bring the Philippine remittance market, or the promised USD to BTS gateways that were coming months ago, or the infomercial (which sounds refreshing in this bleak project at this time), or you could just make up some other bullshit promise. Jesus Christ, after writing that, I can't believe I and anyone else is still involved with this. Those promises are no different than the paycoin promises.

Missed you comments.. ! :-*
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Offline NewMine

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How about they "work" on making what they already have more valuable rather than trying to suck more out of a failing system. If they have to get real jobs and work on Bitshares in their spare time, so be it. Nobody has more to gain than the Dev team. The incentive is their, they just want to eat their cake too. The productivity of the group, as it seems now, is lacking.  The supposed 1.0 launch seems to be drifting further away the more developers are added to the project.  I have a feeling if 95% of the Dev team quit today! we would see 1.0 sooner than if they all stayed on board. Meanwhile price is on a downward spiral to its all time lows at the début of BTSX when market functionality was yet to be working or proved. Good job team!  Maybe you could add 70 more developers so this project can nose dive into the graveyard and everyone here can just get on with their lives next week.  Or maybe you could go back to St Marten and find that "Great White Buffalo", or the find the killer DAC that VOTE was supposed to be,  or muster up that fellow from down under who was going to bring the Philippine remittance market, or the promised USD to BTS gateways that were coming months ago, or the infomercial (which sounds refreshing in this bleak project at this time), or you could just make up some other bullshit promise. Jesus Christ, after writing that, I can't believe I and anyone else is still involved with this. Those promises are no different than the paycoin promises.

Offline cass

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Yes, this is by far THE most important problem facing crypto currencies.

Let us say someone like Apple, wanted to move into this market in a big way.  Imagine them having huge high paid (with real money, not pipe dreams) teams, not only codding, but doing all of the other things required to change the way the world does things.  They could easily clone all of our open source, create 101 delegates of their own – all controlled by the hierarchical beurocracy, that is Apple.

What we are really trying to do, is answer: how do you make it so a grass roots, non-beurocratic leaderless community can compete with a well-organized hierarchical bureaucracy?  Until a crypto currency community can learn how to merge together, and co-operate, on large scales (i.e. millions of people) we will never compete with hierarchies that can do that.

IMO you nailed it!
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Offline Brent.Allsop

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Yes, this is by far THE most important problem facing crypto currencies.

Let us say someone like Apple, wanted to move into this market in a big way.  Imagine them having huge high paid (with real money, not pipe dreams) teams, not only codding, but doing all of the other things required to change the way the world does things.  They could easily clone all of our open source, create 101 delegates of their own – all controlled by the hierarchical beurocracy, that is Apple.

What we are really trying to do, is answer: how do you make it so a grass roots, non-beurocratic leaderless community can compete with a well-organized hierarchical bureaucracy?  Until a crypto currency community can learn how to merge together, and co-operate, on large scales (i.e. millions of people) we will never compete with hierarchies that can do that.


Offline donkeypong

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I am working to keep the team together, motivated, and compensated without additional delegate positions.    The developers fully realize that multiple paid positions would be counter-productive at increasing their take-home pay.   

You guys are getting close. Maybe not as close as we'd all like to be right now, but the job needs to be done right. Hang in there a bit longer and keep up the good work!

Offline oco101

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The way we are doing it now... with equity that they earn through their delegate positions.  If they do a good job and grow the ecosystem they will be payed higher than almost every other developer once the market cap gets bigger.  I would like to know if all the dev's are working full time or if this is a part time gig for them... judging by the github milestones, hardly any progress has been made in the last week.

Agreed, I've been watching those milestones like a hawk and it seems lately only more issues get added instead of closed, and 0.9.0 has already been pushed back like a month and a half into early March...which probably means May.

Not looking good. We need a high market cap to secure top talent, but we need top talent to produce something tangible to get the high market cap. Where the hell's the light wallet anyway?

In a meantime we have a great developer PC that could start working right away but his delegate is not voted in yet ... far from it. We desperately need more developers but when come to voting well ...... So let vote this guys in ASAP dev-pc.bitcube !!!

Offline carpet ride

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Real and successful companies don't issue stock at first, they try to take on debt instead. Issuing stock while the market cap is this low is damaging to Bitshares. One way to do debt financing is through a similar setup to what we're proposing with our wallet.

I hope the community starts to understand the need for debt financing before the market cap drops even more. That would be a terrible pitty.

This post is so LOL on so many levels.

Not really.


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Offline gamey

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Real and successful companies don't issue stock at first, they try to take on debt instead. Issuing stock while the market cap is this low is damaging to Bitshares. One way to do debt financing is through a similar setup to what we're proposing with our wallet.

I hope the community starts to understand the need for debt financing before the market cap drops even more. That would be a terrible pitty.

This post is so LOL on so many levels.
I speak for myself and only myself.