Author Topic: Bitshares paper trading?  (Read 4864 times)

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Offline gamey

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The problem is not setting it up, as dev networks are trivial to create. The problem is demo liquidity.

Yes, which is why distribution is somewhat important.  It would be a hard thing to bootstrap even a fake market without a decent marketing budget of some sort.

Someone suggested feeding the maintainer of a market maker bot a lot of coins.  This could be done and it'd make the market realistic at least. If the market maker bot loses it wouldn't matter.

A prizepool could be very useful too.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2015, 03:00:56 am by gamey »
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Offline monsterer

Because there is no cost, and no risk, it only takes 1 person to provide all the liquidity you would ever need.  I wouldn't be surprised to find the demo network more active than the real network, again because there is no cost and no risk.  Someone with no money can't use bitshares proper, however they might be curious with a free demo network.  It would even be interesting for existing bitshares users just to test out whatever experiments are going on.  Especially if there are games and gambling which are taboo (for some reason) on the main network.

Fair enough. Maybe I used to wrong term... I used liquidity to encompass sufficient trading volume + sufficient orderbook depth. ...But I am not opposed to the idea of paper trading in general.
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Xeldal

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The demo network would be for a lot more than just trading also.
What else?

Anything you can think of that BitShares might use or might use BitShares.  Testing ground for games, gambling, messaging, chat, data storage, web pages, dns, security mechanisms, social media, smart contracts, scripting, IoT, governance models, voting, predictions, micro-transactions, market Bazaar.   You know, all the standard stuff.   

what do you mean demo liquidity?  If there's no cost to obtaining demo coins, providing liquidity is easy.

We struggle to get general liquidity on the DEX with the maximum number of bitshares users - how we will get anything usable on the demo network with a tiny subset of the userbase?
Because there is no cost, and no risk, it only takes 1 person to provide all the liquidity you would ever need.  I wouldn't be surprised to find the demo network more active than the real network, again because there is no cost and no risk.  Someone with no money can't use bitshares proper, however they might be curious with a free demo network.  It would even be interesting for existing bitshares users just to test out whatever experiments are going on.  Especially if there are games and gambling which are taboo (for some reason) on the main network.

Offline lil_jay890

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The problem is not setting it up, as dev networks are trivial to create. The problem is demo liquidity.
They wouldn't be accurate markets as anyone could buy and sell at any amount and there's no financial incentive to make good decision.  so practice trading for accurate results would be difficult. 

IDK, maybe its not so important to reflect the market accurately, it could be geared more for using, interfacing  and getting a feel for the system.  Not necessarily training a good trader. 

Indeed and it wouldn't need all of the current bitassets or uia's. The demo could keep it to only a few pairs like BTC:USD LTC:USD GOLD:USD (showcase all pairs but not available for demo). From there someone can try and learn how to short, how to make an order, how bonds work, etc.

Someone could click on "training mode" and he can have a walkthrough of Bitshares like we see in most simulation games.

Quote
The demo network would be for a lot more than just trading also.
What else?

We should follow how demo accounts are setup by brokers currently.  We take the live price data and feed it to a server where the customer can create a demo account trade with "unlimited" funds.  All the demo account info is stored on the server.  Granted this isn't 100% accurate since in real trading you cant move infinite funds around, but this is how the current group of forex brokers do it.  The website/server should be hosted by various companies offering different trading platforms.

Offline monsterer

what do you mean demo liquidity?  If there's no cost to obtaining demo coins, providing liquidity is easy.

We struggle to get general liquidity on the DEX with the maximum number of bitshares users - how we will get anything usable on the demo network with a tiny subset of the userbase?
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Offline rgcrypto

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The problem is not setting it up, as dev networks are trivial to create. The problem is demo liquidity.
They wouldn't be accurate markets as anyone could buy and sell at any amount and there's no financial incentive to make good decision.  so practice trading for accurate results would be difficult. 

IDK, maybe its not so important to reflect the market accurately, it could be geared more for using, interfacing  and getting a feel for the system.  Not necessarily training a good trader. 

Indeed and it wouldn't need all of the current bitassets or uia's. The demo could keep it to only a few pairs like BTC:USD LTC:USD GOLD:USD (showcase all pairs but not available for demo). From there someone can try and learn how to short, how to make an order, how bonds work, etc.

Someone could click on "training mode" and he can have a walkthrough of Bitshares like we see in most simulation games.

Quote
The demo network would be for a lot more than just trading also.
What else?

Xeldal

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The problem is not setting it up, as dev networks are trivial to create. The problem is demo liquidity.

what do you mean demo liquidity?  If there's no cost to obtaining demo coins, providing liquidity is easy.

They wouldn't be accurate markets as anyone could buy and sell at any amount and there's no financial incentive to make good decision.  so practice trading for accurate results would be difficult.  I suppose you could fund a market bot with a massive amount of demo coins so it could make the markets and follow the feed etc,  and new accounts could be limited to 1,000,000 coins or something so they couldn't exhaust the maker.

IDK, maybe its not so important to reflect the market accurately, it could be geared more for using, interfacing  and getting a feel for the system.  Not necessarily training a good trader.  The demo network would be for a lot more than just trading also.

Offline rgcrypto

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The problem is not setting it up, as dev networks are trivial to create. The problem is demo liquidity.

What if the market was a simulated one? Kind of like playing chess against a computer.
After all, if it's a game or a tutorial, we don't need it to be "the real thing". As long as people can get the feel of it and how each market operation function.

(I have no clue if that's possible or realistic)

Offline monsterer

The problem is not setting it up, as dev networks are trivial to create. The problem is demo liquidity.
My opinions do not represent those of metaexchange unless explicitly stated.
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Xeldal

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I was listening to Beyond Bitcoin Show of November 6th. BM mentioned a demo website located on a central server with fictitious tokens as being an item on the roadmap.

I know it is for people to test dev stuff but can we use it for paper trading too?

I myself would love to play in a "sandbox" with fictional BTS, USD, BTC, etc.

Connected to a good tutorials and "voila"...Bitshares Academy!
This could also serve as a funnel to get people to buy Lifetime Memberships when they are ready to trade for real.

Anybody else interested in BitShares paper trading?

Yes.  I think this could be a tremendous tool.  I would enjoy it for all sorts of reasons. Eager to see it materialize.

The learning curve can be quite steep on first approach.  The freedom to use all the features, turn all the nobs, and play with all the settings is a great way to become familiar and actually get whats going on, without spending a bunch of money or making a costly mistake.   There's good incentive to build all sorts of things on this.

My understanding is that this is not meant to be DevShares but a sort of playground.  DevShares would specifically be the branch slated to replace the main network and would not contain any of the playground experimental stuff.

Hey @Xeldal you are probably more familiar than me about how one could go about creating such platform. I think it could be a great way to get new users...especially if we "gamefy" it. Just like those poker website where you can learn without spending any real money then when one feels good enough to play with real money, we've got a trained trader who will buy a membership to use the platform and actually use it.

Do we need a license from cryptonomex @bytemaster?

Lots of FOREX exchanges have a similar thing. With the complexity of the Bitshares software etc, a demo site really is needed. Now that one doesn't need to download a client it is actually feasible.  Your main problem would be distributing the coins initially, I'd think. Well that and the technical know how to setup a server/new chain etc.

Oh yea, and permission.

probably no need to distribute coins initially, just every new account could be given a bazzillion freshly minted coins.  Setting up a server is not difficult, and it could be done by a single person.  It was Cryptonomics idea to create it, so i would guess they will likely be involved so no permission needed.

Something that might be an issue is this chain will be reset and changed who knows how often, so anything you built on top of it would need to be able to adapt to the changes and not require persistent balances/accounts etc.  With fake coins it shouldn't be a big issue as nothing was really lost, but might be a little annoying depending on what you're trying to do.

Offline donkeypong

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How about having a cow patty faucet and loading every dummy-trading account with Brownie Points? People could experiment using those.

Offline gamey

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I was listening to Beyond Bitcoin Show of November 6th. BM mentioned a demo website located on a central server with fictitious tokens as being an item on the roadmap.

I know it is for people to test dev stuff but can we use it for paper trading too?

I myself would love to play in a "sandbox" with fictional BTS, USD, BTC, etc.

Connected to a good tutorials and "voila"...Bitshares Academy!
This could also serve as a funnel to get people to buy Lifetime Memberships when they are ready to trade for real.

Anybody else interested in BitShares paper trading?

Yes.  I think this could be a tremendous tool.  I would enjoy it for all sorts of reasons. Eager to see it materialize.

The learning curve can be quite steep on first approach.  The freedom to use all the features, turn all the nobs, and play with all the settings is a great way to become familiar and actually get whats going on, without spending a bunch of money or making a costly mistake.   There's good incentive to build all sorts of things on this.

My understanding is that this is not meant to be DevShares but a sort of playground.  DevShares would specifically be the branch slated to replace the main network and would not contain any of the playground experimental stuff.

Hey @Xeldal you are probably more familiar than me about how one could go about creating such platform. I think it could be a great way to get new users...especially if we "gamefy" it. Just like those poker website where you can learn without spending any real money then when one feels good enough to play with real money, we've got a trained trader who will buy a membership to use the platform and actually use it.

Do we need a license from cryptonomex @bytemaster?

Lots of FOREX exchanges have a similar thing. With the complexity of the Bitshares software etc, a demo site really is needed. Now that one doesn't need to download a client it is actually feasible.  Your main problem would be distributing the coins initially, I'd think. Well that and the technical know how to setup a server/new chain etc.

Oh yea, and permission.
I speak for myself and only myself.

Offline rgcrypto

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I was listening to Beyond Bitcoin Show of November 6th. BM mentioned a demo website located on a central server with fictitious tokens as being an item on the roadmap.

I know it is for people to test dev stuff but can we use it for paper trading too?

I myself would love to play in a "sandbox" with fictional BTS, USD, BTC, etc.

Connected to a good tutorials and "voila"...Bitshares Academy!
This could also serve as a funnel to get people to buy Lifetime Memberships when they are ready to trade for real.

Anybody else interested in BitShares paper trading?

Yes.  I think this could be a tremendous tool.  I would enjoy it for all sorts of reasons. Eager to see it materialize.

The learning curve can be quite steep on first approach.  The freedom to use all the features, turn all the nobs, and play with all the settings is a great way to become familiar and actually get whats going on, without spending a bunch of money or making a costly mistake.   There's good incentive to build all sorts of things on this.

My understanding is that this is not meant to be DevShares but a sort of playground.  DevShares would specifically be the branch slated to replace the main network and would not contain any of the playground experimental stuff.

Hey @Xeldal you are probably more familiar than me about how one could go about creating such platform. I think it could be a great way to get new users...especially if we "gamefy" it. Just like those poker website where you can learn without spending any real money then when one feels good enough to play with real money, we've got a trained trader who will buy a membership to use the platform and actually use it.

Do we need a license from cryptonomex @bytemaster?

Xeldal

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I was listening to Beyond Bitcoin Show of November 6th. BM mentioned a demo website located on a central server with fictitious tokens as being an item on the roadmap.

I know it is for people to test dev stuff but can we use it for paper trading too?

I myself would love to play in a "sandbox" with fictional BTS, USD, BTC, etc.

Connected to a good tutorials and "voila"...Bitshares Academy!
This could also serve as a funnel to get people to buy Lifetime Memberships when they are ready to trade for real.

Anybody else interested in BitShares paper trading?

Yes.  I think this could be a tremendous tool.  I would enjoy it for all sorts of reasons. Eager to see it materialize.

The learning curve can be quite steep on first approach.  The freedom to use all the features, turn all the nobs, and play with all the settings is a great way to become familiar and actually get whats going on, without spending a bunch of money or making a costly mistake.   There's good incentive to build all sorts of things on this.

My understanding is that this is not meant to be DevShares but a sort of playground.  DevShares would specifically be the branch slated to replace the main network and would not contain any of the playground experimental stuff. 


Offline rgcrypto

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Could make it a game. Each week or month, the user starts with 100,000 fake BTS. The site works just like OK, except there is no deposit or withdraws. It would function just like a centralized version of OL so there's no need for multiple witnesses and committees. The rules,fees and feeds would just mirror the real dex. Who ever has the mist BTS or networth at the end of the round wins. You also add a real BTS entry fee and those who enter would win that pool.

I like that!

So, how would that work with Cryptonomex if someone wanted to create this kind of website? I would see it has a great way to introduce people by removing all barriers to entry. This could be a business opportunity.