Author Topic: [ANN] Moonstone.io development and crowdfunder diary  (Read 87498 times)

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Offline xeroc

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Very nice summary .. thanks for posting

jakub

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I ended up discussing in tonyk's style, which I find horrible and manipulative.
I regret this and I am sorry for letting myself be trapped in this.

These are my final thoughts on this subject.

1. There are three parties involved: Bitsapphire, IOU investors and BitShares shareholders.

2. The fundraising deal is only between Bitsapphire and IOU investors. If Bitsapphire fails to deliver, IOU investors will lose their money, but BitShares shareholders (or BTS funds as tonyk calls them) will not be negatively affected.

3. The outcome for BitShares shareholders can only be neutral or positive. BitShares shareholders are the ultimate judges who have the power to employ Bitsapphire and fire it whenever they choose to do so. It is true Bitsapphire's salary will be paid from BTS funds but this is trivial as it is the case with every other delegate we have. But the important distinction is that Bitsapphire will not be using BTS funds but will be paid from these funds only for services they deliver.

4. The BitShares shareholders should only care whether the Moonstone wallet has the potential to increase the adoption of BitShares or not. They should not care who else is using the wallet and whether some other third party using the wallet contributes to the wallet development or not. Also, they should not care whether Bitsapphire makes a profit on the fundraising or not. This is not our business.

However, if I am both a BitShares shareholder and an IOU investor a conflict of interest can occur. As a BitShares shareholder I might want to fire Bitsapphire but as an IOU investor I might want to keep them so they are able to repay me. This is a valid concern but it originates not from Bitsapphire's offer being "convoluted" but from the way our delegate and UIA systems work.
I am quite sure similar cases of delegates offering their IOUs will be happening in the future and we will need to find a way how to manage our loyalty is such situations. But again, this has nothing to do with Bitsapphire, they just happen to be the first entity to expose the existence of this loophole but this problem is on our side not on theirs.


« Last Edit: May 15, 2015, 07:52:31 am by jakub »

Offline BTSdac

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I like moonstone ,I don`t understand what you said , don`t forget  BTS is a open ecosystem



hope they change their minds and decide to open source "moonstone" without the need to raise the $120000 first***...

I think moonstone can open code or not  , it is just his strategy.
I think we should less comment about it .
« Last Edit: May 15, 2015, 03:07:48 am by BTSdac »
github.com :pureland
BTS2.0 API :ws://139.196.37.179:8091
BTS2.0 API 数据源ws://139.196.37.179:8091

Offline Ander

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Is it just me, or does it seem like a lot of forum members have had a particularly sandy crotch the past few days?

Everybody love everybody.   :-*

LOL - True, people seem particularly irritated these days!   :P

Yeah, I'm not sure why.  People are really angry this week, lol!
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Offline sudo

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I appreciate the moonstone project a lot and I'm willing to donate.
Here is my feedback regarding the crowdfunding process:

1. It would be good if you placed this valuable link https://marvelapp.com/a31d7h#3555223 in a more exposed place - in my opinion this link is much more informative than the product demo in the form of a mute YouTube video.

2. When I am trying to donate I am asked to supply a password, a new wallet is created and I'm instructed to download it and keep to safe but there is no explicit guide how to use the new wallet. I guess I could figure it out on my own but it would be much better if I didn't have to. What is badly needed is a step by step guide what to do with the new wallet apart from keeping it safe, i.e. how to access the downloaded wallet and see the purchased Moonstone Tokes.

3. Currently the donation mechanism is not working - when I try to donate I get stuck with the message "Loading Bitcoin address" and nothing happens.

Thank you for your feedback!

1. For the first suggestion, yes, we could do that! But we are going to release the Demo version of the Moonstone Wallet next week, and that will replace the Marvelapp.
2. After we release the demo version, you will be able to use it, test it, and “play” around with it. As for the “step by step guide”, I don’t think that would be necessary( unless the community wants for it be implemented - after they have used the Moonstone Wallet demo firsthand)
3. We tested the “Donate” button and it’s working fine! If you could take a screenshot of the problem, and send it to us, we would more than appreciate it!

Hopefully we could be of any help to you!

we are going to release the Demo version of the Moonstone Wallet next week

may 15th

Offline Chuckone

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Is it just me, or does it seem like a lot of forum members have had a particularly sandy crotch the past few days?

Everybody love everybody.   :-*

LOL - True, people seem particularly irritated these days!   :P

Offline kenCode

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Is it just me, or does it seem like a lot of forum members have had a particularly sandy crotch the past few days?
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Offline robrigo

Is it just me, or does it seem like a lot of forum members have had a particularly sandy crotch the past few days?

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zerosum

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stop spreading false information that Bitsapphire is using or will be using BTS funds.

What false info? You agreed that all I said is true and the only lies are in your own posts!


Your arguments are plain stupid for me.

How come? Not enough misleading information or lies to make them more convincing to your liking?

You came, stated 3 lies and now you are winning because my arguments are the truth?

What a joke....


jakub

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- "Bitsapphire is not using BTS funds, they are just fund raising using the tools we have created for this purpose: BitShares UIA"
False. Bitsapphire IS using BTS funds - delegate pay to repay those UIA
If they had not issued UIA but borrowed fiat funds from a bank instead and then chose to repay the loan using their delegate pay - would you still say Bitsapphire is using BTS funds??
What they are going to earn through their delegates is THEIR money and not BTS funds any more.

No, Bitsapphire already got their money from the IOU investors. Now they are making the shareholders vote delegates to pay the IOU investors. As I said in the other post - convoluted scheme where Bitsapphire get their funds upfront and somebody else is left holding the bag/paying the bill - be it shareholders or IOU investors. They do not care they go their money already.

Quote

- "My point is this: Bitsapphire can make profit on us only if their wallet turns out to be a valuable contribution to the BitShares ecosystem"
False - Bitsapphire makes profit if the wallet is funded. Its success is a fact with no consequence to their profit!
You are right.. assuming that it has cost them just $130,000 to create the wallet. I guess it might have been a bit more than this.

- "If you don't like it (the moonstone wallet )don't use it and you will not pay for it"
False - You will pay for it even if you have not touched it or do not like it. Paying for it has nothing to do with using it.
You are right.. but the same is true about a dozen other delegates that you find lazy and worthless yet still your transaction fees go to them.


Yup, I thought so...  And yes I am asking generally the same question - "Why not get your asses elected as delegates and get paid for your work...but 'nooo '  you're too smart for that ...you can come with a better scheme to get your money, and faster at that!"

PS
and the "I guess it might have been a bit more than this." comment.. I wouldn't have not done it... you are suspected shill as it is, no need to drop insider info to confirm it.

Your arguments are plain stupid for me.
I think you lost this one, tonyk, so please stop spreading false information that Bitsapphire is using or will be using BTS funds.
It's a deal between IOU investors and Bitsapphire and BTS funds have nothing to do with it even if the delegate pay is used to repay those investors. The delegate pay is their money which they can spend however they like and this includes repaying IOU investors.
If you don't like the deal - stay away from it but don't say the deal is dishonest or misleading.

PS. I have no association with Bitsapphire, I just want them to succeed as part of the ecosystem.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 04:34:16 pm by jakub »

Offline liondani

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87%+ needed to target...initial 30 days passed... I would be thinking deep and hard why this went that way, instead of sending shills to fight the truth with lies and incorrect statements, but hey it's only me...

not only you, believe me !


Yup, I thought so...  And yes I am asking generally the same question - "Why not get your asses elected as delegates and get paid for your work...but 'nooo '  you're too smart for that ...you can come with a better scheme to get your money, and faster at that!"

hope they change their minds and decide to open source "moonstone" without the need to raise the $120000 first***...
stop the madness guys, what else must happen to recognize your mistakes?

***   (don't bet they get their money faster that way @tonyk2 ...  :D )
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 04:17:19 pm by liondani »

zerosum

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- "Bitsapphire is not using BTS funds, they are just fund raising using the tools we have created for this purpose: BitShares UIA"
False. Bitsapphire IS using BTS funds - delegate pay to repay those UIA
If they had not issued UIA but borrowed fiat funds from a bank instead and then chose to repay the loan using their delegate pay - would you still say Bitsapphire is using BTS funds??
What they are going to earn through their delegates is THEIR money and not BTS funds any more.

No, Bitsapphire already got their money from the IOU investors. Now they are making the shareholders vote delegates to pay the IOU investors. As I said in the other post - convoluted scheme where Bitsapphire get their funds upfront and somebody else is left holding the bag/paying the bill - be it shareholders or IOU investors. They do not care they go their money already.

Quote

- "My point is this: Bitsapphire can make profit on us only if their wallet turns out to be a valuable contribution to the BitShares ecosystem"
False - Bitsapphire makes profit if the wallet is funded. Its success is a fact with no consequence to their profit!
You are right.. assuming that it has cost them just $130,000 to create the wallet. I guess it might have been a bit more than this.

- "If you don't like it (the moonstone wallet )don't use it and you will not pay for it"
False - You will pay for it even if you have not touched it or do not like it. Paying for it has nothing to do with using it.
You are right.. but the same is true about a dozen other delegates that you find lazy and worthless yet still your transaction fees go to them.


Yup, I thought so...  And yes I am asking generally the same question - "Why not get your asses elected as delegates and get paid for your work...but 'nooo '  you're too smart for that ...you can come with a better scheme to get your money, and faster at that!"

PS
and the "I guess it might have been a bit more than this." comment.. I wouldn't have not done it... you are suspected shill as it is, no need to drop insider info to confirm it.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 03:49:04 pm by tonyk2 »

jakub

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- "Bitsapphire is not using BTS funds, they are just fund raising using the tools we have created for this purpose: BitShares UIA"
False. Bitsapphire IS using BTS funds - delegate pay to repay those UIA
If they had not issued UIA but borrowed fiat funds from a bank instead and then chose to repay the loan using their delegate pay - would you still say Bitsapphire is using BTS funds??
What they are going to earn through their delegates is THEIR money and not BTS funds any more.

- "My point is this: Bitsapphire can make profit on us only if their wallet turns out to be a valuable contribution to the BitShares ecosystem"
False - Bitsapphire makes profit if the wallet is funded. Its success is a fact with no consequence to their profit!
You are right.. assuming that it has cost them just $130,000 to create the wallet. I guess it might have been a bit more than this.

- "If you don't like it (the moonstone wallet )don't use it and you will not pay for it"
False - You will pay for it even if you have not touched it or do not like it. Paying for it has nothing to do with using it.
You are right.. but the same is true about a dozen other delegates that you find lazy and worthless yet still your transaction fees go to them.

zerosum

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For the not understanding part - You put several statement regarding the Moonstone that are not true and  pump the project using incorrect info!

 - "Bitsapphire is not using BTS funds, they are just fund raising using the tools we have created for this purpose: BitShares UIA"
False. Bitsapphire IS using BTS funds - delegate pay to repay those UIA

- "My point is this: Bitsapphire can make profit on us only if their wallet turns out to be a valuable contribution to the BitShares ecosystem"
False - Bitsapphire makes profit if the wallet is funded. Its success is a fact with no consequence to their profit!

- "If you don't like it (the moonstone wallet )don't use it and you will not pay for it"
False - You will pay for it even if you have not touched it or do not like it. Paying for it has nothing to do with using it.

Bitsapphire offers us a deal which is clear: "Help us to bear the financial risk of launching the wallet and in return we will offer you (and everybody else) a free license to the code".
They never promised anything more and nothing more is included in the deal.
They have the right to make any business alliance they find suitable for them but during the fundraising they should share this information with us which is what they do.

Will it help us if Peertracks is excluded from making use of the wallet? No.
Will it help us if Factom is excluded from making use of the wallet? No.

Personally I don't care who they partner with. All I care for is if they can deliver a good wallet which has a chance for a mass adoption because this is good for the entire BitShares ecosystem.

If the deal was so innocent why did you decide to pump it using the incorrect statements mentioned above?

Anyway, the market has given a clear answer to the question - "Hey BTS, why don't you give us some money using this convoluted scheme?"

Don't you think?



87%+ needed to target...initial 30 days passed... I would be thinking deep and hard why this went that way, instead of sending shills to fight the truth with lies and incorrect statements, but hey it's only me...

jakub

  • Guest
For the not understanding part - You put several statement regarding the Moonstone that are not true and  pump the project using incorrect info!

 - "Bitsapphire is not using BTS funds, they are just fund raising using the tools we have created for this purpose: BitShares UIA"
False. Bitsapphire IS using BTS funds - delegate pay to repay those UIA

- "My point is this: Bitsapphire can make profit on us only if their wallet turns out to be a valuable contribution to the BitShares ecosystem"
False - Bitsapphire makes profit if the wallet is funded. Its success is a fact with no consequence to their profit!

- "If you don't like it (the moonstone wallet )don't use it and you will not pay for it"
False - You will pay for it even if you have not touched it or do not like it. Paying for it has nothing to do with using it.

Bitsapphire offers us a deal which is clear: "Help us to bear the financial risk of launching the wallet and in return we will offer you (and everybody else) a free license to the code".
They never promised anything more and nothing more is included in the deal.
They have the right to make any business alliance they find suitable for them but during the fundraising they should share this information with us which is what they do.

Will it help us if Peertracks is excluded from making use of the wallet? No.
Will it help us if Factom is excluded from making use of the wallet? No.

Personally I don't care who they partner with. All I care for is if they can deliver a good wallet which has a chance for a mass adoption because this is good for the entire BitShares ecosystem.