Author Topic: Moonstone Fundraiser Help Thread  (Read 11972 times)

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Offline xeroc

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I sent the MOONFUND I purchased with bitcoin from the newly-generated wallet to my main BitShares address. No problem with that, right?
Nop .. all right .. :)
My guess for the "buyback" is that they will probably set a buy order for MOONFUND in the decentralized exchange (maybe also offer via metaexchange or so) ..
this means, you can
+ send your MOONFUND tokens to however you want
+ split them into smaller pieces
+ store them in coldstorage
+ sell them on the DEX earlier of you find a buyer (for any asset)

Offline joereform

I sent the MOONFUND I purchased with bitcoin from the newly-generated wallet to my main BitShares address. No problem with that, right?

Offline Shentist

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it seems bitsapphire is still reworking the moonstone.io website

if you want to donat, you can still submit direct on https://metaexchange.info/markets/MOONFUND/BTC

Offline jz831

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The price of BTS moved within that time period faster than our API call to our price feed. Metaexchange is showing the correct amount. The correct amount should be displayed within a few minutes on Moonstone.io. Both are just estimates as the final amount is calculated once the first Bitcoin confirmation happens after 10-15 minutes.

If you want to see your final balance faster, and if you already have a TITAN ID with the current wallet, you can use Metaexchange. After 10-15 minutes you'll get your MOONFUND tokens.

Please let us know whether there are any other issues you encounter!

When i submit the form on the crowdfunding page https://moonstone.io/, (after moving the mouse around, and entering the password) - the page now is outputting the following incorrect text:
Quote
You will receive approximately
0.00 Moonstone Tokens per Bitcoin

I realize what you say above probably explains the issue, I just wanted to raise it to you so you're aware of it, as this will likely deter investors.
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Offline bitsapphire

I want to donate from the moonstone.io  but it tell me I will get 50200 moonfund for one bitcoin.
But If I buy from metaxchange, the moonfund price is 0.00001704, that is about 58000 moonfund per bitcoin.

Some body can tell me why? I dare not donate for now.

The price of BTS moved within that time period faster than our API call to our price feed. Metaexchange is showing the correct amount. The correct amount should be displayed within a few minutes on Moonstone.io. Both are just estimates as the final amount is calculated once the first Bitcoin confirmation happens after 10-15 minutes.

If you want to see your final balance faster, and if you already have a TITAN ID with the current wallet, you can use Metaexchange. After 10-15 minutes you'll get your MOONFUND tokens.

Please let us know whether there are any other issues you encounter!
Register and get your personal Moonstone Wallet Beta here: https://moonstone.io/login-register.html

Offline xiahui135

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I want to donate from the moonstone.io  but it tell me I will get 50200 moonfund for one bitcoin.
But If I buy from metaxchange, the moonfund price is 0.00001704, that is about 58000 moonfund per bitcoin.

Some body can tell me why? I dare not donate for now.

Offline bitsapphire

What happens when you reach your goal?  Will you still refund the donations made after $150k with 15% yield?  What if you had 500k dumped on your site.  Is there anything preventing you from meeting the target of 15% yield for 500K in donations?

If we get 500k dumped then that will be the least of our worries :). We would be able to integrate Bitcoin much faster, create a decentralized bridging service, and decentralize the server setup into an oracle setup. Not to mention that we could start with the modularization of the system for future plugins too. If anything like that happens we'll figure out an even better way to compensate everybody!

Assuming though we simply pass the 130k goal, based on our calculation and the current BTS exchange rate up to 300k USD worth of MOONFUNDS should be no problem with 5 delegates.

Does that address your concerns?

Yeah thats great.  Btw what's your story?  How did you find out about bitshares?  And why bitshares?  Any other projects you guys worked on before you came here?

Here's  a great video interview Max did https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sDU-ooXq-E

This should answer all your questions.
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Offline vlight

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Congrats on selling BTS down to its lowest price ever to fund moonstone.

Its going to be so great when moonstone gives us a 20% rise when it comes out, after driving the price down 50% for the funding.  Yep, so awesome.

haha, we wanted a moon instead we got a moonstone to the face.

Offline bitsapphire

"Moonstone is a crypto wallet that allows transfers and trades among BitShares, BitAssets, User-Issued Assets (UIA), and other tokens."

This description is very difficult for non-BitShares people who might find this page. How about,

"Moonstone is a free crypto wallet that allows transfers and trades among Bitcoin, BitAssets (like bitUSD and bitGOLD), User-Issued Assets (UIA), and other tokens."

Thanks CLains! Just updated the sentence accordingly. New website will be up in 2-3 days based on community feedback so far. Any other ideas or comments?
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Offline CLains

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"Moonstone is a crypto wallet that allows transfers and trades among BitShares, BitAssets, User-Issued Assets (UIA), and other tokens."

This description is very difficult for non-BitShares people who might find this page. How about,

"Moonstone is a free crypto wallet that allows transfers and trades among Bitcoin, BitAssets (like bitUSD and bitGOLD), User-Issued Assets (UIA), and other tokens."


Offline bitsapphire

Can you spell out more clearly why moontokens are valuable?

Each MOONFUND token will be bought back from the market with BTS in the future via delegate pay. For every donation you will receive 15% more MOONFUND tokens than you would BTS on a current exchange. This means that as long as the Moonstone wallet becomes sufficiently popular over the next 5-30 months you can make a return on your donation.

I'm concerned about the numbers. Let's say you put a 30 month cutoff on the delegate pay. This means each 100% delegate can only generate 3,905,560 BTS during this 30 month period. You already have 1,350,349 MOONFUND liability with only 5% funded. If we assume the price of BTS remains the same over the next 30 days, then raising $130,000 requires generating a total of (1.15 * 130,000 / 0.005399) = 27,690,313 MOONFUND tokens (assuming the crowdfunding is successful). In order to generate enough BTS to buyback the MOONFUND at a 1-to-1 rate, you would need 27,690,313/3,905,560 = 7.09 100% paid delegates (so round that up to 8 delegates). The problem will be even worse if the price of BTS continues to drop over the next 30 days.

The problem is you are offering 15% return on BTS. If BTS price is expected to shoot up in the next year or so like we all expect it will, you will be overpaying a lot! It was a much more realistic deal when the return was on the dollar amount donated.

Edit: I don't think you should change the deal now that the fundraiser has started. But you should just be clear about exactly how many delegates you plan to include in the opt-out selection for the Moonstone wallet and what your maximum cut off time is before you take the delegates down (or at least stop using their pay to buy back MOONFUND tokens). That way people can properly assess the risk of not getting paid back (or what percentage they will be paid back).

Furthermore, you should not do a continuous buyback since you cannot know if you will be able to fulfill the entire buyback at a 1-to-1 rate prior to the cut off time. In this case, the people who are fastest to sell their MOONFUND tokens will profit at the expense of the slower movers. To be fair, you should instead regularly distribute dividends to MOONFUND holders.

If the price of BTS continues to fall relative to BTC over the next month then yes the 30 month limit is too short.

Our number one approach is to not cap the buyback period at all.

We are currently redesigning the fundraiser page to reflect visually better what got done so far.
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Offline fav

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What if we want to do multiple donations? Would you just send some more BTC at a later time to the same BTC address you generated when you first created the wallet?

Is there any way to check and see whether our donation was received and our wallet credited?

That flow should work - metaexchange deposit addresses are reusable and the moonstone team is using our API to generate the addresses on their fundraiser page. bitsapphire should be able to confirm :)

was about to ask the same. is this confirmed @bitsapphire ?

Offline fuzzy

Thats why future fund-raisers should get advises from the community before they start...
just my 2 MOONSTONES  ;)

Nehh... why bother?

"We will receive the delegates pay and buy back the IOU" was as detail explanation as we got from bitsapphire....and this was enough for at least 2 months of min 2-3 daily posts that applauded them and virtually promised that the project will bring  the price of BTS to the... moon (appropriately). Why break the good mojo with some details and logic? nehh.

[edit]
PS
And yes this was my only question (alongside with several critiques) when the funding with delegates/buying back the IOU was initially announced... And I have not seen yet any model that makes this working smoothly (it is a rare case but I am not in owe with arhag's proposals neither)

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Offline NewMine

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Congrats on selling BTS down to its lowest price ever to fund moonstone.

Its going to be so great when moonstone gives us a 20% rise when it comes out, after driving the price down 50% for the funding.  Yep, so awesome.

Hey now.

It just a crypto bear market. Right?   ;)

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Thats why future fund-raisers should get advises from the community before they start...
just my 2 MOONSTONES  ;)

Nehh... why bother?

"We will receive the delegates pay and buy back the IOU" was as detail explanation as we got from bitsapphire....and this was enough for at least 2 months of min 2-3 daily posts that applauded them and virtually promised that the project will bring  the price of BTS to the... moon (appropriately). Why break the good mojo with some details and logic? nehh.

[edit]
PS
And yes this was my only question (alongside with several critiques) when the funding with delegates/buying back the IOU was initially announced... And I have not seen yet any model that makes this working smoothly (it is a rare case but I am not in owe with arhag's proposals neither)
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 11:36:01 pm by tonyk2 »

Offline Ander

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Congrats on selling BTS down to its lowest price ever to fund moonstone.

Its going to be so great when moonstone gives us a 20% rise when it comes out, after driving the price down 50% for the funding.  Yep, so awesome. 

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Offline clayop

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Another thing I would suggest is to reduce the MOONFUND to BTS donated rate as the fundraiser progresses. Right now it is 1.15 MOONFUND for every BTS donated. Perhaps when the fundraiser is 50% funded the rate could be dropped to 1.10 MOONFUND per BTS donated and then after 80% funding could be further dropped to 1.05 MOONFUND per BTS donated.

This serves two roles. First, it reduces the liabilities for the buyback meaning that satisfying all promises becomes possible in a shorter amount of time (meaning earlier cut off deadline). Second, it encourages people to donate early when there is greater risk since there is less information regarding the probability of the fundraiser reaching its goal (and if the fundraiser doesn't reach its goal and become MIT licensed, the community is slightly less likely to promote the Moonstone client, which means it is slightly less likely that the 5 delegates will get elected in the first place).

I think it's too late to change the policy. But a good suggestion.
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Offline arhag

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Another thing I would suggest is to reduce the MOONFUND to BTS donated rate as the fundraiser progresses. Right now it is 1.15 MOONFUND for every BTS donated. Perhaps when the fundraiser is 50% funded the rate could be dropped to 1.10 MOONFUND per BTS donated and then after 80% funding could be further dropped to 1.05 MOONFUND per BTS donated.

This serves two roles. First, it reduces the liabilities for the buyback meaning that satisfying all promises becomes possible in a shorter amount of time (meaning earlier cut off deadline). Second, it encourages people to donate early when there is greater risk since there is less information regarding the probability of the fundraiser reaching its goal (and if the fundraiser doesn't reach its goal and become MIT licensed, the community is slightly less likely to promote the Moonstone client, which means it is slightly less likely that the 5 delegates will get elected in the first place).

Offline liondani

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Thats why future fund-raisers should get advises from the community before they start...
just my 2 MOONSTONES  ;)

Offline arhag

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In my calculation, 5 delegates for 42 months. Baaed on current BTS price.
But here's variables. Bts price can go up during the fundraising, and some people will sell moonfund at discounted price.

Right, so assuming Moonstone will be restricted to only 5 delegates, and assuming the price of BTS does not rise higher than what it is right now in the next 30 days, the cut off must be at least 3 and a half years in the future to have a chance of paying back the 15%. However, if they decide to have the cutoff be 30 months with 5 delegates, the best they can do is 0.81 BTS (not 1.15) for every BTS invested.

That is why it is important to not start the buyback at a 1 MOONFUND = 1 BTS rate, because anyone who moves fast every time more BTS is added to the sell wall will profit at the expense of everyone else. If a continuous buyback is still desired, the appropriate thing to do in that case would be to buyback at a rate of 1 MOONFUND = 0.705 BTS (obviously the exact numbers will change depending on how the price of BTS change over the next 30 days).

Offline bitsapphire

Good points guys. We've been thinking about potentially problematic scenarios. We'll write up a breakdown of potential scenatios and proposed solutions asap!
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Offline clayop

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Can you spell out more clearly why moontokens are valuable?

Each MOONFUND token will be bought back from the market with BTS in the future via delegate pay. For every donation you will receive 15% more MOONFUND tokens than you would BTS on a current exchange. This means that as long as the Moonstone wallet becomes sufficiently popular over the next 5-30 months you can make a return on your donation.

I'm concerned about the numbers. Let's say you put a 30 month cutoff on the delegate pay. This means each 100% delegate can only generate 3,905,560 BTS during this 30 month period. You already have 1,350,349 MOONFUND liability with only 5% funded. If we assume the price of BTS remains the same over the next 30 days, then raising $130,000 requires generating a total of (1.15 * 130,000 / 0.005399) = 27,690,313 MOONFUND tokens (assuming the crowdfunding is successful). In order to generate enough BTS to buyback the MOONFUND at a 1-to-1 rate, you would need 27,690,313/3,905,560 = 7.09 100% paid delegates (so round that up to 8 delegates). The problem will be even worse if the price of BTS continues to drop over the next 30 days.

The problem is you are offering 15% return on BTS. If BTS price is expected to shoot up in the next year or so like we all expect it will, you will be overpaying a lot! It was a much more realistic deal when the return was on the dollar amount donated.

In my calculation, 5 delegates for 42 months. Baaed on current BTS price.
But here's variables. Bts price can go up during the fundraising, and some people will sell moonfund at discounted price.
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Offline arhag

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Can you spell out more clearly why moontokens are valuable?

Each MOONFUND token will be bought back from the market with BTS in the future via delegate pay. For every donation you will receive 15% more MOONFUND tokens than you would BTS on a current exchange. This means that as long as the Moonstone wallet becomes sufficiently popular over the next 5-30 months you can make a return on your donation.

I'm concerned about the numbers. Let's say you put a 30 month cutoff on the delegate pay. This means each 100% delegate can only generate 3,905,560 BTS during this 30 month period. You already have 1,350,349 MOONFUND liability with only 5% funded. If we assume the price of BTS remains the same over the next 30 days, then raising $130,000 requires generating a total of (1.15 * 130,000 / 0.005399) = 27,690,313 MOONFUND tokens (assuming the crowdfunding is successful). In order to generate enough BTS to buyback the MOONFUND at a 1-to-1 rate, you would need 27,690,313/3,905,560 = 7.09 100% paid delegates (so round that up to 8 delegates). The problem will be even worse if the price of BTS continues to drop over the next 30 days.

The problem is you are offering 15% return on BTS. If BTS price is expected to shoot up in the next year or so like we all expect it will, you will be overpaying a lot! It was a much more realistic deal when the return was on the dollar amount donated.

Edit: I don't think you should change the deal now that the fundraiser has started. But you should just be clear about exactly how many delegates you plan to include in the opt-out selection for the Moonstone wallet and what your maximum cut off time is before you take the delegates down (or at least stop using their pay to buy back MOONFUND tokens). That way people can properly assess the risk of not getting paid back (or what percentage they will be paid back).

Furthermore, you should not do a continuous buyback since you cannot know if you will be able to fulfill the entire buyback at a 1-to-1 rate prior to the cut off time. In this case, the people who are fastest to sell their MOONFUND tokens will profit at the expense of the slower movers. To be fair, you should instead regularly distribute dividends to MOONFUND holders.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 09:57:25 pm by arhag »

Offline Bitcoinfan

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What happens when you reach your goal?  Will you still refund the donations made after $150k with 15% yield?  What if you had 500k dumped on your site.  Is there anything preventing you from meeting the target of 15% yield for 500K in donations?

If we get 500k dumped then that will be the least of our worries :). We would be able to integrate Bitcoin much faster, create a decentralized bridging service, and decentralize the server setup into an oracle setup. Not to mention that we could start with the modularization of the system for future plugins too. If anything like that happens we'll figure out an even better way to compensate everybody!

Assuming though we simply pass the 130k goal, based on our calculation and the current BTS exchange rate up to 300k USD worth of MOONFUNDS should be no problem with 5 delegates.

Does that address your concerns?

Yeah thats great.  Btw what's your story?  How did you find out about bitshares?  And why bitshares?  Any other projects you guys worked on before you came here?

Offline bitsapphire

What if we want to do multiple donations? Would you just send some more BTC at a later time to the same BTC address you generated when you first created the wallet?

Is there any way to check and see whether our donation was received and our wallet credited?

That works and we have tested it. Your MOONFUND price is calculated based on the exchange rate at the time of the first BTC confirmation. If you send funds again there you'll get a new exchange rate.
Register and get your personal Moonstone Wallet Beta here: https://moonstone.io/login-register.html

Offline bitsapphire

What happens when you reach your goal?  Will you still refund the donations made after $150k with 15% yield?  What if you had 500k dumped on your site.  Is there anything preventing you from meeting the target of 15% yield for 500K in donations?

If we get 500k dumped then that will be the least of our worries :). We would be able to integrate Bitcoin much faster, create a decentralized bridging service, and decentralize the server setup into an oracle setup. Not to mention that we could start with the modularization of the system for future plugins too. If anything like that happens we'll figure out an even better way to compensate everybody!

Assuming though we simply pass the 130k goal, based on our calculation and the current BTS exchange rate up to 300k USD worth of MOONFUNDS should be no problem with 5 delegates.

Does that address your concerns?
Register and get your personal Moonstone Wallet Beta here: https://moonstone.io/login-register.html

Offline .yoshi

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I generated/downloaded the wallet.json file and donated. Where can I see my MOONFUND balance?

To clarify: I tried importing the JSON file into my BitShares wallet and the application warned me that importing the moonstone .json wallet would overwrite my current wallet so I did not proceed. Any tips?

Go your account, keys tab, and choose second tab where bitcoin wallet files can be imported. Choose .json format and import your Moonstone wallet.

Thank you, I'll give this a shot when I get home!

Offline clayop

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I generated/downloaded the wallet.json file and donated. Where can I see my MOONFUND balance?

To clarify: I tried importing the JSON file into my BitShares wallet and the application warned me that importing the moonstone .json wallet would overwrite my current wallet so I did not proceed. Any tips?

Go your account, keys tab, and choose second tab where bitcoin wallet files can be imported. Choose .json format and import your Moonstone wallet.
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Offline sudo

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when can you release beta version moonstone wallet  for try?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 06:25:01 pm by sudo »

Offline .yoshi

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I generated/downloaded the wallet.json file and donated. Where can I see my MOONFUND balance?

To clarify: I tried importing the JSON file into my BitShares wallet and the application warned me that importing the moonstone .json wallet would overwrite my current wallet so I did not proceed. Any tips?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 06:17:27 pm by .yoshi »

Offline monsterer

What if we want to do multiple donations? Would you just send some more BTC at a later time to the same BTC address you generated when you first created the wallet?

Is there any way to check and see whether our donation was received and our wallet credited?

That flow should work - metaexchange deposit addresses are reusable and the moonstone team is using our API to generate the addresses on their fundraiser page. bitsapphire should be able to confirm :)
My opinions do not represent those of metaexchange unless explicitly stated.
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Offline nomoreheroes7

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What if we want to do multiple donations? Would you just send some more BTC at a later time to the same BTC address you generated when you first created the wallet?

Is there any way to check and see whether our donation was received and our wallet credited?

Offline Bitcoinfan

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What happens when you reach your goal?  Will you still refund the donations made after $150k with 15% yield?  What if you had 500k dumped on your site.  Is there anything preventing you from meeting the target of 15% yield for 500K in donations? 

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Offline davidpbrown

Ok maybe you can dumb this down for me.  Say I have $100 to invest.  I think bts is going to be 100-500% higher within the next 6 months.  Shouldn't I just invest in bts since that return will be much higher than the 15% moonstone is offering?

If you think BTS is going to be worth 100-500% in a few months, then you would want to accumulate as much MOONFUND as possible (not investment advice, just saying). You can get 15% more BTS in the long run with your 100 USD by buying MOONFUND than by putting your money directly into BTS.

Concretely, if you want to spend 100 USD today on BTS you can get 18,000 BTS,
If you donate to Moonstone you can get 20,700 BTS in the long run.

I would really like to know whether that was simple enough. We'd like to include a simple explanation for our newsletter today. Please let us know what you think!

That's great.. and especially now with the switch to BTS!  +5%  +5%  +5%
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Offline davidpbrown

...I notice though that the total $ on https://moonstone.io/ hasn't updated.

"The total number and percentage bar are updated on a 15-30 minute basis as we count only verified bitcoin transactions and cloudflare takes about 15 minutes to update on all continents. This is normal and expected." from second post in this thread.

Yes but still not updated.. perhaps it's not including the metaexchange yet or there is a longer delay.
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Offline bitsapphire

Ok maybe you can dumb this down for me.  Say I have $100 to invest.  I think bts is going to be 100-500% higher within the next 6 months.  Shouldn't I just invest in bts since that return will be much higher than the 15% moonstone is offering?

If you think BTS is going to be worth 100-500% in a few months, then you would want to accumulate as much MOONFUND as possible (not investment advice, just saying). You can get 15% more BTS in the long run with your 100 USD by buying MOONFUND than by putting your money directly into BTS.

Concretely, if you want to spend 100 USD today on BTS you can get 18,000 BTS,
If you donate to Moonstone you can get 20,700 BTS in the long run.

I would really like to know whether that was simple enough. We'd like to include a simple explanation for our newsletter today. Please let us know what you think!
Register and get your personal Moonstone Wallet Beta here: https://moonstone.io/login-register.html

Offline bitsapphire

"Upon donation you will receive 1.15 Bitsapphire UIAs, meaning, for every dollar you put in an additional 15% will get back to you in the form of a buyback over the next 5-30 months."

Can you clarify when exactly we get back our "donation"? In 5,6,7... our 30 months? Suppose the BTS market cap increase the next months and the $130000 will be collected from your 5 elected delegates  in 9 months from now... does it mean it mean you release the fund then our gradually  every day for example? (something like vested funds)

The text should update any time now to reflect the changes to BTS rather than USD. Based on the community feedback we decided to switch the repayment in terms of BTS as everybody in the thread and the poll is long on BTS. People want to make a return in in terms of BTS.

Considering that the delegate repayment rate is practically constant the repayment will also be constant (on a daily basis). We will place 1:1 orders on the market for MOONFUNDs every day with the delegate funds.

This means that the only variable (assuming delegates are voted in as planned) is what the price of BTS in terms of BTC is during these 30 days, and how much we raise. Once the fundraiser is complete it should be predictable how long it will take for the buyback to complete.
Register and get your personal Moonstone Wallet Beta here: https://moonstone.io/login-register.html

Offline lil_jay890

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Ok maybe you can dumb this down for me.  Say I have $100 to invest.  I think bts is going to be 100-500% higher within the next 6 months.  Shouldn't I just invest in bts since that return will be much higher than the 15% moonstone is offering?

Offline liondani

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1. Are the prices on metaexchange.info and moonstone.io different by design?

2. If this funding goes real well - Are you gonna end it at  ~130K USD or you gonna let it run for the while 30 days, collecting say 200K USD?

metaexchange.info is just the current exchange pricing determined by the market (not moonstone.io). It should be traded theoretically at a 15% discount to what BTS are worth now, anything off of that is an arbitrage opportunity. Right now 1 BTC = 44k BTS, and 1 BTC=51k MOONFUND, so it looks about right.

I suppose the 66% spread that is mentioned on metaexchange is not correct for the MOONFUND/BTC  market? Right?

Offline maqifrnswa

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metaexchange.info is just the current exchange pricing determined by the market (not moonstone.io).

That's incorrect - bitsapphire is running a metaexchange node to support this fundraiser in partnership with us - the prices on metaexchange are the live fundraiser prices with no markup :)

ah, interesting, thanks for clarifying. What happens when the secondary market goes live, will metaexchange and the BTS wallet be out-of sync?
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Offline bitsapphire


1. Are the prices on metaexchange.info and moonstone.io different by design?

2. If this funding goes real well - Are you gonna end it at  ~130K USD or you gonna let it run for the while 30 days, collecting say 200K USD?

metaexchange.info is just the current exchange pricing determined by the market (not moonstone.io). It should be traded theoretically at a 15% discount to what BTS are worth now, anything off of that is an arbitrage opportunity. Right now 1 BTC = 44k BTS, and 1 BTC=51k MOONFUND, so it looks about right.

EDIT: Also, MOONFUND exchanges shouldn't count to the crowdfunding campaign, since it is done outside of crowdfunding.

(MOONFUND is the right UIA, correct?)

That's incorrect - bitsapphire is running a metaexchange node to support this fundraiser in partnership with us - the prices on metaexchange are the live fundraiser prices with no markup :)

MOONFUND is the official token, yes.

@tonyk2 The fundraiser will run for 30 days, just like a kickstarter. Whatever is collected will go to operations and an explainer to how the funds will be used ill be released regularly.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 03:31:38 pm by bitsapphire »
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Offline monsterer

metaexchange.info is just the current exchange pricing determined by the market (not moonstone.io).

That's incorrect - bitsapphire is running a metaexchange node to support this fundraiser in partnership with us - the prices on metaexchange are the live fundraiser prices with no markup :)
My opinions do not represent those of metaexchange unless explicitly stated.
https://metaexchange.info | Bitcoin<->Altcoin exchange | Instant | Safe | Low spreads

zerosum

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metaexchange.info is just the current exchange pricing determined by the market (not moonstone.io).

It will be extremely weird if this indeed is the case.... @monsterer @bitsapphire?

Offline liondani

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 "Upon donation you will receive 1.15 Bitsapphire UIAs, meaning, for every dollar you put in an additional 15% will get back to you in the form of a buyback over the next 5-30 months."

Can you clarify when exactly we get back our "donation"? In 5,6,7... our 30 months? Suppose the BTS market cap increase the next months and the $130000 will be collected from your 5 elected delegates  in 9 months from now... does it mean it mean you release the fund then our gradually  every day for example? (something like vested funds)

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(MOONSTONE is the right UIA, correct?)
nop .. AFAIK its MOONFUND

Offline maqifrnswa

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1. Are the prices on metaexchange.info and moonstone.io different by design?

2. If this funding goes real well - Are you gonna end it at  ~130K USD or you gonna let it run for the while 30 days, collecting say 200K USD?

metaexchange.info is just the current exchange pricing determined by the market (not moonstone.io). It should be traded theoretically at a 15% discount to what BTS are worth now, anything off of that is an arbitrage opportunity. Right now 1 BTC = 44k BTS, and 1 BTC=51k MOONFUND, so it looks about right. I got corrected by bitsapphire: metaexchange is the same as the donation through moonstone.io
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 03:34:24 pm by maqifrnswa »
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zerosum

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1. Are the prices on metaexchange.info and moonstone.io different by design?

2. If this funding goes real well - Are you gonna end it at  ~130K USD or you gonna let it run for the while 30 days, collecting say 200K USD?

Offline .yoshi

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The tokens are send to your newly generated wallet directly.

I wonder most people will already have a BitShares wallet and might then prefer to use that with https://metaexchange.info/markets/MOONFUND/BTC
That just worked well for me and MOONFUND received but I notice though that the total $ on https://moonstone.io/ hasn't updated.

"The total number and percentage bar are updated on a 15-30 minute basis as we count only verified bitcoin transactions and cloudflare takes about 15 minutes to update on all continents. This is normal and expected." from second post in this thread.

Offline davidpbrown

The tokens are send to your newly generated wallet directly.

I wonder most people will already have a BitShares wallet and might then prefer to use that with https://metaexchange.info/markets/MOONFUND/BTC
That just worked well for me and MOONFUND received but I notice though that the total $ on https://moonstone.io/ hasn't updated.
฿://1CBxm54Ah5hiYxiUtD7JGYRXykT5Z6ZuMc

Offline bitsapphire


Any issues donating directly from Coinbase to my assigned BTC address?

No issues. You can donate from any BTC address. The tokens are send to your newly generated wallet directly.
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Offline Riverhead


Any issues donating directly from Coinbase to my assigned BTC address?

Offline bitsapphire

why not support bitusd

We cash out all BTC every day into fiat. All of the donations go into operational expenses. This creates some downward pressure on BTC.

If we accepted BTS or bitAssets we would be required to convert them on the spot to BTC and then to fiat, in which case we would loose a lot of funds just through the spread and exchange fees. This would then create a lot of downward pressure on BTS.

By using BTC we lower the overall pressure on BTS, create potential new long positions on BTS, and reduce the overall crowdfunding amount in terms of BTS we need to raise to make it to 130,000 USD, and increase the overall likelihood of achieving the 15% repayment. It's a win-win all around.
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Offline bitsapphire

I'm kind of confused as to the whole "buyback" model that's going on. Is it basically BitSapphire delegates that will need to get hired by the blockchain in order to pay back moonstone donations? What if BitSapphire can't get enough delegates elected? What are the reasonable odds of losing money in the whole deal as opposed to receiving a 15% ROI? Is there a risk of losing all investment if things don't work out as planned?

Basically, how much riskier is it to buy and hold moonstone IOUs as opposed to just hodling BTS?

Good question. The crowdfunder is similar to a kickstarter where we wnat to release a public good (The whole wallet code under the open source MIT license). However, normally kickstarter-style donation drives mean that a minority of passionate people pay for the public. This means that there is an incentive for the public to free-ride.

With BitShares it is for the first time possible to build a public good and get payed by the public for doing so (i.e. the delegate pay system). The problem we see currently is that the public is essentially taking on the risk of hiring a delegate without him/her producing anything of significance yet. We are very much against the public paying for risk taking, that should be left to individual donors/investors. By combining a market for projects and their public return via the delegate system, and the delegate pay itself, it becomes possible to de-risk the public completely!

This means that the donors can get payed by the public via the delegate system for choosing the right projects, while the public never takes "the wrong bet".

The secondary effect of this system is that the kickcstarter model still works, but as a donor you reduce your overall risk exposure as you can make potentially a return.

Considering that the project is close to completion (we're currently working on the market interface which will be presented soon, and a custom blockchain deserializer) the risk should be considerably lower than lets say a traditional kickcstarter model where projects ask for money to start working on it. We've already done the heavy lifting!
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Offline youlonghun

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why not support bitusd

Offline bitsapphire

Can you spell out more clearly why moontokens are valuable?

Each MOONFUND token will be bought back from the market with BTS in the future via delegate pay. For every donation you will receive 15% more MOONFUND tokens than you would BTS on a current exchange. This means that as long as the Moonstone wallet becomes sufficiently popular over the next 5-30 months you can make a return on your donation.
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Offline nomoreheroes7

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I'm kind of confused as to the whole "buyback" model that's going on. Is it basically BitSapphire delegates that will need to get hired by the blockchain in order to pay back moonstone donations? What if BitSapphire can't get enough delegates elected? What are the reasonable odds of losing money in the whole deal as opposed to receiving a 15% ROI? Is there a risk of losing all investment if things don't work out as planned?

Basically, how much riskier is it to buy and hold moonstone IOUs as opposed to just hodling BTS?

Offline CLains

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Can you spell out more clearly why moontokens are valuable?

Offline bitsapphire

Questions https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,15598.0.html

The total number and percentage bar are updated on a 15-30 minute basis as we count only verified bitcoin transactions and cloudflare takes about 15 minutes to update on all continents. This is normal and expected.

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Offline bitsapphire

Hi guys,

https://moonstone.io/ fundraiser app is live now.

In this thread any and all questions and problems will be answered by us.
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