Author Topic: Moonstone Fundraiser Help Thread  (Read 11979 times)

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Offline Ander

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Congrats on selling BTS down to its lowest price ever to fund moonstone.

Its going to be so great when moonstone gives us a 20% rise when it comes out, after driving the price down 50% for the funding.  Yep, so awesome. 

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Offline clayop

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Another thing I would suggest is to reduce the MOONFUND to BTS donated rate as the fundraiser progresses. Right now it is 1.15 MOONFUND for every BTS donated. Perhaps when the fundraiser is 50% funded the rate could be dropped to 1.10 MOONFUND per BTS donated and then after 80% funding could be further dropped to 1.05 MOONFUND per BTS donated.

This serves two roles. First, it reduces the liabilities for the buyback meaning that satisfying all promises becomes possible in a shorter amount of time (meaning earlier cut off deadline). Second, it encourages people to donate early when there is greater risk since there is less information regarding the probability of the fundraiser reaching its goal (and if the fundraiser doesn't reach its goal and become MIT licensed, the community is slightly less likely to promote the Moonstone client, which means it is slightly less likely that the 5 delegates will get elected in the first place).

I think it's too late to change the policy. But a good suggestion.
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Offline arhag

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Another thing I would suggest is to reduce the MOONFUND to BTS donated rate as the fundraiser progresses. Right now it is 1.15 MOONFUND for every BTS donated. Perhaps when the fundraiser is 50% funded the rate could be dropped to 1.10 MOONFUND per BTS donated and then after 80% funding could be further dropped to 1.05 MOONFUND per BTS donated.

This serves two roles. First, it reduces the liabilities for the buyback meaning that satisfying all promises becomes possible in a shorter amount of time (meaning earlier cut off deadline). Second, it encourages people to donate early when there is greater risk since there is less information regarding the probability of the fundraiser reaching its goal (and if the fundraiser doesn't reach its goal and become MIT licensed, the community is slightly less likely to promote the Moonstone client, which means it is slightly less likely that the 5 delegates will get elected in the first place).

Offline liondani

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Thats why future fund-raisers should get advises from the community before they start...
just my 2 MOONSTONES  ;)

Offline arhag

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In my calculation, 5 delegates for 42 months. Baaed on current BTS price.
But here's variables. Bts price can go up during the fundraising, and some people will sell moonfund at discounted price.

Right, so assuming Moonstone will be restricted to only 5 delegates, and assuming the price of BTS does not rise higher than what it is right now in the next 30 days, the cut off must be at least 3 and a half years in the future to have a chance of paying back the 15%. However, if they decide to have the cutoff be 30 months with 5 delegates, the best they can do is 0.81 BTS (not 1.15) for every BTS invested.

That is why it is important to not start the buyback at a 1 MOONFUND = 1 BTS rate, because anyone who moves fast every time more BTS is added to the sell wall will profit at the expense of everyone else. If a continuous buyback is still desired, the appropriate thing to do in that case would be to buyback at a rate of 1 MOONFUND = 0.705 BTS (obviously the exact numbers will change depending on how the price of BTS change over the next 30 days).

Offline bitsapphire

Good points guys. We've been thinking about potentially problematic scenarios. We'll write up a breakdown of potential scenatios and proposed solutions asap!
Register and get your personal Moonstone Wallet Beta here: https://moonstone.io/login-register.html

Offline clayop

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Can you spell out more clearly why moontokens are valuable?

Each MOONFUND token will be bought back from the market with BTS in the future via delegate pay. For every donation you will receive 15% more MOONFUND tokens than you would BTS on a current exchange. This means that as long as the Moonstone wallet becomes sufficiently popular over the next 5-30 months you can make a return on your donation.

I'm concerned about the numbers. Let's say you put a 30 month cutoff on the delegate pay. This means each 100% delegate can only generate 3,905,560 BTS during this 30 month period. You already have 1,350,349 MOONFUND liability with only 5% funded. If we assume the price of BTS remains the same over the next 30 days, then raising $130,000 requires generating a total of (1.15 * 130,000 / 0.005399) = 27,690,313 MOONFUND tokens (assuming the crowdfunding is successful). In order to generate enough BTS to buyback the MOONFUND at a 1-to-1 rate, you would need 27,690,313/3,905,560 = 7.09 100% paid delegates (so round that up to 8 delegates). The problem will be even worse if the price of BTS continues to drop over the next 30 days.

The problem is you are offering 15% return on BTS. If BTS price is expected to shoot up in the next year or so like we all expect it will, you will be overpaying a lot! It was a much more realistic deal when the return was on the dollar amount donated.

In my calculation, 5 delegates for 42 months. Baaed on current BTS price.
But here's variables. Bts price can go up during the fundraising, and some people will sell moonfund at discounted price.
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Offline arhag

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Can you spell out more clearly why moontokens are valuable?

Each MOONFUND token will be bought back from the market with BTS in the future via delegate pay. For every donation you will receive 15% more MOONFUND tokens than you would BTS on a current exchange. This means that as long as the Moonstone wallet becomes sufficiently popular over the next 5-30 months you can make a return on your donation.

I'm concerned about the numbers. Let's say you put a 30 month cutoff on the delegate pay. This means each 100% delegate can only generate 3,905,560 BTS during this 30 month period. You already have 1,350,349 MOONFUND liability with only 5% funded. If we assume the price of BTS remains the same over the next 30 days, then raising $130,000 requires generating a total of (1.15 * 130,000 / 0.005399) = 27,690,313 MOONFUND tokens (assuming the crowdfunding is successful). In order to generate enough BTS to buyback the MOONFUND at a 1-to-1 rate, you would need 27,690,313/3,905,560 = 7.09 100% paid delegates (so round that up to 8 delegates). The problem will be even worse if the price of BTS continues to drop over the next 30 days.

The problem is you are offering 15% return on BTS. If BTS price is expected to shoot up in the next year or so like we all expect it will, you will be overpaying a lot! It was a much more realistic deal when the return was on the dollar amount donated.

Edit: I don't think you should change the deal now that the fundraiser has started. But you should just be clear about exactly how many delegates you plan to include in the opt-out selection for the Moonstone wallet and what your maximum cut off time is before you take the delegates down (or at least stop using their pay to buy back MOONFUND tokens). That way people can properly assess the risk of not getting paid back (or what percentage they will be paid back).

Furthermore, you should not do a continuous buyback since you cannot know if you will be able to fulfill the entire buyback at a 1-to-1 rate prior to the cut off time. In this case, the people who are fastest to sell their MOONFUND tokens will profit at the expense of the slower movers. To be fair, you should instead regularly distribute dividends to MOONFUND holders.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 09:57:25 pm by arhag »

Offline Bitcoinfan

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What happens when you reach your goal?  Will you still refund the donations made after $150k with 15% yield?  What if you had 500k dumped on your site.  Is there anything preventing you from meeting the target of 15% yield for 500K in donations?

If we get 500k dumped then that will be the least of our worries :). We would be able to integrate Bitcoin much faster, create a decentralized bridging service, and decentralize the server setup into an oracle setup. Not to mention that we could start with the modularization of the system for future plugins too. If anything like that happens we'll figure out an even better way to compensate everybody!

Assuming though we simply pass the 130k goal, based on our calculation and the current BTS exchange rate up to 300k USD worth of MOONFUNDS should be no problem with 5 delegates.

Does that address your concerns?

Yeah thats great.  Btw what's your story?  How did you find out about bitshares?  And why bitshares?  Any other projects you guys worked on before you came here?

Offline bitsapphire

What if we want to do multiple donations? Would you just send some more BTC at a later time to the same BTC address you generated when you first created the wallet?

Is there any way to check and see whether our donation was received and our wallet credited?

That works and we have tested it. Your MOONFUND price is calculated based on the exchange rate at the time of the first BTC confirmation. If you send funds again there you'll get a new exchange rate.
Register and get your personal Moonstone Wallet Beta here: https://moonstone.io/login-register.html

Offline bitsapphire

What happens when you reach your goal?  Will you still refund the donations made after $150k with 15% yield?  What if you had 500k dumped on your site.  Is there anything preventing you from meeting the target of 15% yield for 500K in donations?

If we get 500k dumped then that will be the least of our worries :). We would be able to integrate Bitcoin much faster, create a decentralized bridging service, and decentralize the server setup into an oracle setup. Not to mention that we could start with the modularization of the system for future plugins too. If anything like that happens we'll figure out an even better way to compensate everybody!

Assuming though we simply pass the 130k goal, based on our calculation and the current BTS exchange rate up to 300k USD worth of MOONFUNDS should be no problem with 5 delegates.

Does that address your concerns?
Register and get your personal Moonstone Wallet Beta here: https://moonstone.io/login-register.html

Offline .yoshi

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I generated/downloaded the wallet.json file and donated. Where can I see my MOONFUND balance?

To clarify: I tried importing the JSON file into my BitShares wallet and the application warned me that importing the moonstone .json wallet would overwrite my current wallet so I did not proceed. Any tips?

Go your account, keys tab, and choose second tab where bitcoin wallet files can be imported. Choose .json format and import your Moonstone wallet.

Thank you, I'll give this a shot when I get home!

Offline clayop

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I generated/downloaded the wallet.json file and donated. Where can I see my MOONFUND balance?

To clarify: I tried importing the JSON file into my BitShares wallet and the application warned me that importing the moonstone .json wallet would overwrite my current wallet so I did not proceed. Any tips?

Go your account, keys tab, and choose second tab where bitcoin wallet files can be imported. Choose .json format and import your Moonstone wallet.
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Offline sudo

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when can you release beta version moonstone wallet  for try?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 06:25:01 pm by sudo »

Offline .yoshi

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I generated/downloaded the wallet.json file and donated. Where can I see my MOONFUND balance?

To clarify: I tried importing the JSON file into my BitShares wallet and the application warned me that importing the moonstone .json wallet would overwrite my current wallet so I did not proceed. Any tips?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 06:17:27 pm by .yoshi »