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Offline Sandrine

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NeuCoin distribution program to Bitshares holders
« on: April 15, 2015, 03:01:10 PM »

Hi! This is Sandrine, I’m a member of the NeuCoin Project team. As you may know, NeuCoin is a PoS currency launching this summer. We recently published a white paper arguing that PoS is superior to PoW, and appreciated the support we got from the wider PoS community against the PoW die-hards.

I’m reaching out to ask for the Bitshares community’s feedback on another topic. We are considering a distribution program whereby a fraction (3-5%) of NeuCoin’s 3 billion coin premine would be distributed to existing holders of select digital currencies: Peercoin, NXT, Bitshares, Blackcoin, Nubits, Ripple(?), Stellar(?) and potentially Dogecoin (Jackson Palmer is a strategic advisors and Doge has been a pioneer in terms of wide distribution and micro-transactions).

The goal of the program would be to involve the PoS community and achieve the fairest and widest possible distribution of NeuCoins to early adopters who are experienced with crypto in general and PoS in particular. The program fits with NeuCoin’s foundational principle of distributing the currency not just to miners, but to all participants in proportion to their contribution to growth in value and utility - so to consumers, merchants, developers, content creators, service providers like exchanges, wallets, processors, etc.

We ask you for your general feedback on this program, as well as input on the following specific questions:
  • What factors should we consider when deciding which altcoins to include? Just PoS coins? Ripple, Stellar? Certain PoW coins like Doge and LTC?
  • What percentage of the program’s coins should be allocated to each altcoin? We want to be “fair” but more importantly want to allocate in the way that optimizes the growth and adoption of NeuCoin.
  • What should the distribution rules be? We want wide, fair distribution, meaning that we don’t want the majority of the coins going to a small number of altcoin whales. Should distribution be pro rata above/below a certain line? We are considering having a fixed payout ratio for each altcoin (X NeuCoins per BTS) with a minimum and maximum payout for each address. What kind of minimum and maximum payouts per address do you think make sense?
  • A last question - on what date should we take a snapshot of each altcoin’s blockchain to determine eligibility for this program?
  • Any other aspect or consideration you want to bring up?

We hope you find this interesting and look forward to your feedback.

If you want more information about NeuCoin’s distribution, we just published a Strategic Plan on neucoin.org. We also just released a new questionnaire in which we ask respondents about the above distribution program among other things - and we’re rewarding everyone who completes the questionnaire with up to 2,500 free NeuCoin. We also just announced the details of our presale that starts on April 28.
Thanks, and let me know if you have any questions!

Offline bytemaster

Re: NeuCoin distribution program to Bitshares holders
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2015, 03:20:13 PM »
Welcome to the forum and thank you for share dropping on BTS users.

The process of share dropping is nothing more than a user acquisition play.    PayPal spent $20 per user to gain network effect.  Share dropping on BTS, BTC, etc is nothing more than PAYING those users to try your product and hoping some of them stick around.   

So I would drop an equal amount on all accounts with over $20 in their respective coins.   

Something to consider is that Alt-coin whales are probably more valuable than the smaller players because they have invested more into the alt-coin space.    So I would identify how much you would be willing to pay to acquire a whale and have that be the upper bound, and then identify how much you would be willing to pay to acquire a "fish" and have that be the lower bound.  Then I would scale the amount given each user linearly between the lower and upper bound.

 
For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline speedy

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Re: NeuCoin distribution program to Bitshares holders
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2015, 03:52:07 PM »
What is the point of NeuCoin? Will it make blockchains profitable? If you have something innovative to add to cryptocurrency then why not propose a paid delegate for yourself and add it into BitShares?

Offline luckybit

Re: NeuCoin distribution program to Bitshares holders
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2015, 04:50:31 PM »
Hi! This is Sandrine, I’m a member of the NeuCoin Project team. As you may know, NeuCoin is a PoS currency launching this summer. We recently published a white paper arguing that PoS is superior to PoW, and appreciated the support we got from the wider PoS community against the PoW die-hards.

I’m reaching out to ask for the Bitshares community’s feedback on another topic. We are considering a distribution program whereby a fraction (3-5%) of NeuCoin’s 3 billion coin premine would be distributed to existing holders of select digital currencies: Peercoin, NXT, Bitshares, Blackcoin, Nubits, Ripple(?), Stellar(?) and potentially Dogecoin (Jackson Palmer is a strategic advisors and Doge has been a pioneer in terms of wide distribution and micro-transactions).

The goal of the program would be to involve the PoS community and achieve the fairest and widest possible distribution of NeuCoins to early adopters who are experienced with crypto in general and PoS in particular. The program fits with NeuCoin’s foundational principle of distributing the currency not just to miners, but to all participants in proportion to their contribution to growth in value and utility - so to consumers, merchants, developers, content creators, service providers like exchanges, wallets, processors, etc.

We ask you for your general feedback on this program, as well as input on the following specific questions:
  • What factors should we consider when deciding which altcoins to include? Just PoS coins? Ripple, Stellar? Certain PoW coins like Doge and LTC?
  • What percentage of the program’s coins should be allocated to each altcoin? We want to be “fair” but more importantly want to allocate in the way that optimizes the growth and adoption of NeuCoin.
  • What should the distribution rules be? We want wide, fair distribution, meaning that we don’t want the majority of the coins going to a small number of altcoin whales. Should distribution be pro rata above/below a certain line? We are considering having a fixed payout ratio for each altcoin (X NeuCoins per BTS) with a minimum and maximum payout for each address. What kind of minimum and maximum payouts per address do you think make sense?
  • A last question - on what date should we take a snapshot of each altcoin’s blockchain to determine eligibility for this program?
  • Any other aspect or consideration you want to bring up?

We hope you find this interesting and look forward to your feedback.

If you want more information about NeuCoin’s distribution, we just published a Strategic Plan on neucoin.org. We also just released a new questionnaire in which we ask respondents about the above distribution program among other things - and we’re rewarding everyone who completes the questionnaire with up to 2,500 free NeuCoin. We also just announced the details of our presale that starts on April 28.
Thanks, and let me know if you have any questions!

I'm all for it. At the same time future Bitshares community DACs could agree to sharedrop on NeuCoin to further strengthen community alliances.

My opinion is it should just be PoS. My opinion is you should also go for mergers or even buy out smaller PoS communities through the sharedrop. The idea is to create stakeholders from all of the PoS community to unite it and to create economic ties.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2015, 04:52:26 PM by luckybit »
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Offline hadrian

Re: NeuCoin distribution program to Bitshares holders
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2015, 05:30:09 PM »
Depending on the value of the sharedropped NeuCoins, it could be profitable for people to create many new accounts and split their balances (especially for cryptos where it's cheap to do so).
My hope is that people would not be so greedy, and would not want to go against the spirit of the sharedrop.
My expectation is that people on the whole would be too lazy to bother doing this.

Could this kind of 'gaming the system' be a problem, or is it relatively insignificant?
Either way, I don't see a decent way to avoid it, assuming that you definitely don't want the sharedropped amount to be fully proportional to stake.
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Offline Sandrine

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Re: NeuCoin distribution program to Bitshares holders
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2015, 06:51:50 PM »
bytemaster and luckybit, thanks a lot for the feedback!

Something to consider is that Alt-coin whales are probably more valuable than the smaller players because they have invested more into the alt-coin space. So I would identify how much you would be willing to pay to acquire a whale and have that be the upper bound, and then identify how much you would be willing to pay to acquire a "fish" and have that be the lower bound.  Then I would scale the amount given each user linearly between the lower and upper bound.

The proportional reward between a lower and upper bound sounds very interesting. It could indeed attract more than just “small fish” by giving more than symbolical amounts of NeuCoins.

Depending on the value of the sharedropped NeuCoins, it could be profitable for people to create many new accounts and split their balances (especially for cryptos where it's cheap to do so).
Could this kind of 'gaming the system' be a problem, or is it relatively insignificant?
Either way, I don't see a decent way to avoid it, assuming that you definitely don't want the sharedropped amount to be fully proportional to stake.

hadrian, we also think we need to mitigate this scenario - in which people would split (or purposefully manipulate in any way) their holdings in order to game the system. Our last question: “on what date should we take a snapshot of each altcoin’s blockchain to determine eligibility for this program” revolves around this. In the case of a fully fixed sharedrop, it would definitely become a risk we would have to address.

Offline fuzzy

Re: NeuCoin distribution program to Bitshares holders
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2015, 07:29:29 PM »
Maybe we can get a hangout going this weekend to help you connect with the community here.  I find that in an hour of voip with the "DAC-SAVVY" investors here, we usually get a good bit done.

People planning on sharedropping on us are among the first I like to bring on to chat about their work an gain insight from the community.
WhaleShares==DKP; BitShares is our Community! 
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Offline Dan Kaufman

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Re: NeuCoin distribution program to Bitshares holders
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2015, 07:49:35 PM »
What is the point of NeuCoin? Will it make blockchains profitable? If you have something innovative to add to cryptocurrency then why not propose a paid delegate for yourself and add it into BitShares?

Hi Speedy
The point of NeuCoin is our formula for growth and consumer adoption.
 
We think cryptocurrency is the greatest invention since the Internet itself, with enormous potential, and we obviously stand on the shoulders of giants here, but for all its buzz and media attention, crypto has gone virtually nowhere in terms of mainstream adoption in the six long years since the birth of Bitcoin. From a consumer perspective, it’s niche and techy and inaccessible to regular folks and honestly doesn’t yet have any killer apps that regular consumers care about. It’s a niche phenomenon that’s smaller than even the most moderately successful app or website.
 
We believe that PoW mining/coin distribution has been the main showstopper. And that PoS has the power to change this. Because the true genius of PoS is that it allows for the use of coin distribution as a strategic tool for growth and adoption.
 
And that’s what NeuCoin is about – harnessing the power of secure PoS technology to facilitate growth and adoption.
 
Here’s how I would describe our main innovations:
 
1. Strategically distributed. If you look at the NeuCoin growth-driven distribution model, it incentivizes early adopters to help increase the utility and value of the coin. Instead of just giving coins to miners, who most of the time sell them right away, NeuCoin will be strategically distributed to reward and incentivize all participants who help increase its utility and value: consumers, early investors, exchanges, payment processors, merchants that accept micropayments in NeuCoin – and early adopters like the Bitshares community. In addition, the NeuCoin foundations will use the proceeds from coin sales to directly fund projects that increase the utility (micropayment platforms, super easy online wallet, etc) and consumer reach (freemium coins to consumers and referrers) of NeuCoin, which in turn increases the value of NeuCoin.
 
2. Rewarding early adopters. Tied to the above is the fact that people who get in early on NeuCoin - who help create the first core of users and holders - will be highly rewarded for adding this value. NeuCoin’s economic model uses very high PoS awards, starting at 100% per year in year one, 80% in year two and gradually declining to 6% by year ten, meaning that coin holdings will multiply by up to 50X over 10 years with non-stop PoS mining.
 
3. Easy and consumer-friendly. For consumers to want a cryptocurrency, it has to be easy and fun and well-marketed. Think Candy Crush or Viber. Mainstream. But saying “easy” is easy, the trick is that it really also has to offer mainstream consumers something new to do that they can’t do better with traditional payment methods. Something fun and sticky that will make them come back for more. That’s why NeuCoin is developing platforms for micropayments – which is a new behavior that hasn’t been possible before - and we already have major premium content partners in place.
 
4.  Freemium strategy. The “freemium” strategy, so successfully used by our investors and advisors at Candy Crush, Spotify, etc, is key to consumer adoption. Having a distribution structure that allows you to give out a few for free to consumers to try out the micropayment platforms. With zero friction. After they have  a good experience, they might come back for more.
 
5. Transparency and governance.
For all this to work, governance is key. Trust and transparency is everything. The crypto world is held back by the shadier parts of its history. This is hindering mainstream acceptance and adoption. That’s why we have set up a structure where NeuCoin will be open, accountable and ultimately controlled by coin holders. NeuCoin’s core code development, user growth programs, and projects to increase utility will be supported by three non-profit foundations based in Isle of Man: the Code, Growth and Utility foundations. All foundations are ultimately controlled by NeuCoin holders (1 NeuCoin = 1 vote), who have the power to hire, fire and set compensation for the foundations’ Council Members, and have a right of approval on annual budgets, spending priorities, etc. 

6. An experienced team and high caliber investors and advisors. There’s lot to do and you need resources and dedicated, full time people with good rolodexes to get it done. NeuCoin’s founding team has built multiple companies with millions of users in the music, gaming and shopping sectors - hundreds of millions of users in total. Our strategic advisors include the Head of Growth at Spotify, the co-founder and Chief Architect of King (Candy Crush Saga), the creator of Dogecoin, the core developer of Peercoin and a board member of the Bitcoin Foundation. We also have $2.25 million of initial funding from founders and strategic angels, including the co-founder of King (Candy Crush Saga), Head of Growth at Facebook, SVP of Business at Uber, President of Hotwire, Producers of American Idol and X-factor and dozens more high caliber investors who can help NeuCoin forge strategic partnerships and drive consumer adoption.

This is obviously just a summary, and probably already bored this forum to death, but if you’re interested we describe all this in a lot MORE detail in the “Strategic Plan” on neucoin.org. It’s a complex formula with many components, but it’s all about incentivizing growth and adoption so that crypto can break out and free the world.

Offline Sandrine

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Re: NeuCoin distribution program to Bitshares holders
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2015, 07:54:18 PM »
Maybe we can get a hangout going this weekend to help you connect with the community here.  I find that in an hour of voip with the "DAC-SAVVY" investors here, we usually get a good bit done.

People planning on sharedropping on us are among the first I like to bring on to chat about their work an gain insight from the community.

Yes definitely! I would love to get in touch with you this weekend - I'll include other members of the NeuCoin team if you don't mind. Let's set this up!  :)

Offline luckybit

Re: NeuCoin distribution program to Bitshares holders
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2015, 02:35:47 AM »
Depending on the value of the sharedropped NeuCoins, it could be profitable for people to create many new accounts and split their balances (especially for cryptos where it's cheap to do so).
My hope is that people would not be so greedy, and would not want to go against the spirit of the sharedrop.
My expectation is that people on the whole would be too lazy to bother doing this.

Could this kind of 'gaming the system' be a problem, or is it relatively insignificant?
Either way, I don't see a decent way to avoid it, assuming that you definitely don't want the sharedropped amount to be fully proportional to stake.

There are ways to do that so they cant. For example you don't have to give the date of the snapshot until after the sharedrop has taken place.

The sort of gaming you speak of is not very likely though. If a person has multiple accounts it doesn't change the percentage of Bitshares they own.
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Offline luckybit

Re: NeuCoin distribution program to Bitshares holders
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2015, 02:43:11 AM »
Welcome to the forum and thank you for share dropping on BTS users.

The process of share dropping is nothing more than a user acquisition play.    PayPal spent $20 per user to gain network effect.  Share dropping on BTS, BTC, etc is nothing more than PAYING those users to try your product and hoping some of them stick around.   

So I would drop an equal amount on all accounts with over $20 in their respective coins.   

Something to consider is that Alt-coin whales are probably more valuable than the smaller players because they have invested more into the alt-coin space.    So I would identify how much you would be willing to pay to acquire a whale and have that be the upper bound, and then identify how much you would be willing to pay to acquire a "fish" and have that be the lower bound.  Then I would scale the amount given each user linearly between the lower and upper bound.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient

At the same time I don't think the whales are more important.but If you're thinking about it only from a marketing perspective then you have a point. If you're trying to think about it strategically then it's about the otucome of the stakeholder analysis. It's about the chain of stakeholders.

If everyone in the PoS is a stakeholder in PoS then that represents sort of like a voting block or demographic block. Stakes are how you get everyone on the same page, with the program, and depending on what you're trying to do it could be better to have favor different holders.

Neucoin should just drop in my opinion according to their own criteria which they deem important to their strategy. Perhaps they should drop a bit more on the DACs that they think could be competitors in the future as a way to reduce their own risk. If there is a drop on whale situation then there probably should be a vesting period of the whales will dump Neucoin to hell.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2015, 02:47:52 AM by luckybit »
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Offline luckybit

Re: NeuCoin distribution program to Bitshares holders
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2015, 02:45:59 AM »
What is the point of NeuCoin? Will it make blockchains profitable? If you have something innovative to add to cryptocurrency then why not propose a paid delegate for yourself and add it into BitShares?

Hi Speedy
The point of NeuCoin is our formula for growth and consumer adoption.
 
We think cryptocurrency is the greatest invention since the Internet itself, with enormous potential, and we obviously stand on the shoulders of giants here, but for all its buzz and media attention, crypto has gone virtually nowhere in terms of mainstream adoption in the six long years since the birth of Bitcoin. From a consumer perspective, it’s niche and techy and inaccessible to regular folks and honestly doesn’t yet have any killer apps that regular consumers care about. It’s a niche phenomenon that’s smaller than even the most moderately successful app or website.
 
We believe that PoW mining/coin distribution has been the main showstopper. And that PoS has the power to change this. Because the true genius of PoS is that it allows for the use of coin distribution as a strategic tool for growth and adoption.
 
And that’s what NeuCoin is about – harnessing the power of secure PoS technology to facilitate growth and adoption.
 
Here’s how I would describe our main innovations:
 
1. Strategically distributed. If you look at the NeuCoin growth-driven distribution model, it incentivizes early adopters to help increase the utility and value of the coin. Instead of just giving coins to miners, who most of the time sell them right away, NeuCoin will be strategically distributed to reward and incentivize all participants who help increase its utility and value: consumers, early investors, exchanges, payment processors, merchants that accept micropayments in NeuCoin – and early adopters like the Bitshares community. In addition, the NeuCoin foundations will use the proceeds from coin sales to directly fund projects that increase the utility (micropayment platforms, super easy online wallet, etc) and consumer reach (freemium coins to consumers and referrers) of NeuCoin, which in turn increases the value of NeuCoin.
 
2. Rewarding early adopters. Tied to the above is the fact that people who get in early on NeuCoin - who help create the first core of users and holders - will be highly rewarded for adding this value. NeuCoin’s economic model uses very high PoS awards, starting at 100% per year in year one, 80% in year two and gradually declining to 6% by year ten, meaning that coin holdings will multiply by up to 50X over 10 years with non-stop PoS mining.
 
3. Easy and consumer-friendly. For consumers to want a cryptocurrency, it has to be easy and fun and well-marketed. Think Candy Crush or Viber. Mainstream. But saying “easy” is easy, the trick is that it really also has to offer mainstream consumers something new to do that they can’t do better with traditional payment methods. Something fun and sticky that will make them come back for more. That’s why NeuCoin is developing platforms for micropayments – which is a new behavior that hasn’t been possible before - and we already have major premium content partners in place.
 
4.  Freemium strategy. The “freemium” strategy, so successfully used by our investors and advisors at Candy Crush, Spotify, etc, is key to consumer adoption. Having a distribution structure that allows you to give out a few for free to consumers to try out the micropayment platforms. With zero friction. After they have  a good experience, they might come back for more.
 
5. Transparency and governance.
For all this to work, governance is key. Trust and transparency is everything. The crypto world is held back by the shadier parts of its history. This is hindering mainstream acceptance and adoption. That’s why we have set up a structure where NeuCoin will be open, accountable and ultimately controlled by coin holders. NeuCoin’s core code development, user growth programs, and projects to increase utility will be supported by three non-profit foundations based in Isle of Man: the Code, Growth and Utility foundations. All foundations are ultimately controlled by NeuCoin holders (1 NeuCoin = 1 vote), who have the power to hire, fire and set compensation for the foundations’ Council Members, and have a right of approval on annual budgets, spending priorities, etc. 

6. An experienced team and high caliber investors and advisors. There’s lot to do and you need resources and dedicated, full time people with good rolodexes to get it done. NeuCoin’s founding team has built multiple companies with millions of users in the music, gaming and shopping sectors - hundreds of millions of users in total. Our strategic advisors include the Head of Growth at Spotify, the co-founder and Chief Architect of King (Candy Crush Saga), the creator of Dogecoin, the core developer of Peercoin and a board member of the Bitcoin Foundation. We also have $2.25 million of initial funding from founders and strategic angels, including the co-founder of King (Candy Crush Saga), Head of Growth at Facebook, SVP of Business at Uber, President of Hotwire, Producers of American Idol and X-factor and dozens more high caliber investors who can help NeuCoin forge strategic partnerships and drive consumer adoption.

This is obviously just a summary, and probably already bored this forum to death, but if you’re interested we describe all this in a lot MORE detail in the “Strategic Plan” on neucoin.org. It’s a complex formula with many components, but it’s all about incentivizing growth and adoption so that crypto can break out and free the world.

What about the volatility though? Why would people buy NeuCoin when they can just wait for it to get cheaper in 6 months?
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Offline CLains

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Re: NeuCoin distribution program to Bitshares holders
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2015, 11:56:58 AM »
NeuCoin’s economic model uses very high PoS awards, starting at 100% per year in year one, 80% in year two

Great to hear that you're dropping on BitShares! However, I have never seen any altcoin with high PoS rewards make it past a few months.
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