Author Topic: Friday's Mumble with BM for a tip?  (Read 5046 times)

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Offline gamey

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Have you thought of using advertisers and sponsors as a way to generate income?  You could have dedicated 15-30 second blocks where you read an ad.  I'm sure several companies would find value in doing this. You also could add a subscription model where people pay to get add free recordings. You also could allow subscribers to be guaranteed answers to questions by giving them some sort of token or uia that they can spend for airtime with bm or whoever is being interviewed.  Just a rough idea of ways to possibly monetize beyond bitcoin.

I remember Arthur who started out the project with Fuz came around trying to get people to buy ads on his show and it gets far far more viewers via placement on the LTB portal. It didn't seem like he was having a lot of luck with an ad based approach. A lot of this stuff requires more development time than it is worth.

The idea of having people pay to guarantee their question being asked is interesting.  Not sure how that'd play out.
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Offline lil_jay890

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Have you thought of using advertisers and sponsors as a way to generate income?  You could have dedicated 15-30 second blocks where you read an ad.  I'm sure several companies would find value in doing this. You also could add a subscription model where people pay to get add free recordings. You also could allow subscribers to be guaranteed answers to questions by giving them some sort of token or uia that they can spend for airtime with bm or whoever is being interviewed.  Just a rough idea of ways to possibly monetize beyond bitcoin.

Offline gamey

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Either you want input or you don't; not everything should be considered a complaint.

Again, there are different audiences. Some prefer prompt raw full audio and good data; some don't mind a presentation of the facts; some don't mind PR; and some will believe anything they hear.

Yea my attitude has been showing a lot lately but everyone knows that promptness is desired. I was just giving insight to the considerations aj/fuzzy have to deal with as I used to do what AJ is doing.  People can wait, but then some people may have more time on Saturday etc.  There are different audiences and one can seemingly never make everyone happy.  IMO it really is a discussion about promptness and not whether one has to listen to an edited version or not.

Everyone has the option to record it if they wish. People do this.  Logon mumble and hit record then listen to it later.

I like the idea of the .99 cost to get an unedited recording, just because bitshares is woefully lacking in applications of commerce.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 01:47:14 pm by gamey »
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Offline fuzzy

Let's please keep this productive.  I'm paying attention and I understand this is something the community cares about. I also know everyone working for this project is empassioned about it and wants people to be happy with the content. 

It is best to not let this devolve the conversation to a slapping fight. We have no pool filled with jello...and even more importantly, no bikinis.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 01:42:06 pm by fuzzy »
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Offline davidpbrown

Either you want input or you don't; not everything should be considered a complaint.

Again, there are different audiences. Some prefer prompt raw full audio and good data; some don't mind a presentation of the facts; some don't mind PR; and some will believe anything they hear.
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Offline gamey

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Maybe Aj should put all the cut out stuff on a seperate track.
So you can play the edited version first and later listen to the clicks and pops.
Problem solved.

lololol
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Offline JA

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Maybe Aj should put all the cut out stuff on a seperate track.
So you can play the edited version first and later listen to the clicks and pops.
Problem solved.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 01:11:27 pm by jabbajabba ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ »

Offline gamey

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I personally have never heard anyone express any concerns about authenticity.

It's one factor among others. Media and PR etc isn't trusted widely anyhow but especially in the blockchain world there are too many people talking up their own interests;  even devs and early developers, play to their own interest and become unrealistic in their expectations. Someone stumbling over raw 'data' as it were, might consider that more valuable, than another polished presentation of a hope and a dream.

It all depends how it's done but seeing a certain level of commitment coupled with a consistency over time, give investors confidence. Perpetually changing the sources of information, can be frustrating. I don't want to listen to all the mumbles but on occasion might look to catch up on them by random sampling and I don't find skipping over topics that aren't relevant at all difficult.

No one implied it is "difficult" - just time consuming and annoying. It isn't skipping over topics as much as skipping over technical glitches. The horrible pops on poorly adjusted mics... mismatched volumes etc.  Someone might find that data more valuable but I'm skeptical to say the least.

If you've listened to much radio in your life you'd get a feel for how much radio guys hate dead air time. I suppose listening to a audio stream on your computer is different in some ways, but the general concern is that you lose your audience because they'll change stations.

I agree about the level of commitment for investors etc, but that is what editing and putting out a polished product shows.

If I were you guys I'd complain more about not having the edited versions pushed out into other venues.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 01:02:08 pm by gamey »
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Offline davidpbrown

But many people complained how "unprofessional" it was unedited, and stated that it looked bad on our community.  So we eventually got aj to do a more professional edit.
Interesting conversation here.  Please continue.

Again, that reflects what I've been suggesting for a while that BitShares PR/Marketing; core devs; FAQ/wiki editors etc need to consider that they are and will increasingly be addressing different audiences with different needs. That's why having a clearly stated focus is important.. where are the Mission and Vision statements?..

BitShares will succeed if it keeps in mind what makes blockchain tech appealing.. transparency is part of it. We also need to understand community management will be different that what a company might do, it's more like open source with investors interests too.

Obviously, there will be more need for polished output.. to the point that we see press releases and media celebrities but most important is the depth of information available. Where someone does find a polished snappy presentation, that might be a good hook but if they want more and do their research, find raw feeds and data for themselves, that will only help their confidence and understanding.

The community support may prove as important as any other factor and if you want to draw people into supporting the effort, then they will need educating.. their doing that for themselves is cheaper. If you have to pay everyone, then you'll burn money attracting talent to do a job; people doing what they are passionate about is again one of the core drivers of open source and blockchain - we might expect those will give better quality than paid employees too.
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Offline fuzzy

I personally have never heard anyone express any concerns about authenticity.

It's one factor among others. Media and PR etc isn't trusted widely anyhow but especially in the blockchain world there are too many people talking up their own interests;  even devs and early developers, play to their own interest and become unrealistic in their expectations. Someone stumbling over raw 'data' as it were, might consider that more valuable, than another polished presentation of a hope and a dream.

It all depends how it's done but seeing a certain level of commitment coupled with a consistency over time, give investors confidence. Perpetually changing the sources of information, can be frustrating. I don't want to listen to all the mumbles but on occasion might look to catch up on them by random sampling and I don't find skipping over topics that aren't relevant at all difficult.

This was actually why we initially didn't edit.  I wanted this to be something raw that others could use (like blogs and other media) to create their own BitShares-related news and use the hangouts as a source of information.  It would be building up toward being more like a conference where everyone gets a free press pass. 
This was specifically to give everyone an equal footing on the investment side of the equation. 
But many people complained how "unprofessional" it was unedited, and stated that it looked bad on our community.  So we eventually got aj to do a more professional edit.
Interesting conversation here.  Please continue.
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Offline davidpbrown

I personally have never heard anyone express any concerns about authenticity.

It's one factor among others. Media and PR etc isn't trusted widely anyhow but especially in the blockchain world there are too many people talking up their own interests;  even devs and early developers, play to their own interest and become unrealistic in their expectations. Someone stumbling over raw 'data' as it were, might consider that more valuable, than another polished presentation of a hope and a dream.

It all depends how it's done but seeing a certain level of commitment coupled with a consistency over time, give investors confidence. Perpetually changing the sources of information, can be frustrating. I don't want to listen to all the mumbles but on occasion might look to catch up on them by random sampling and I don't find skipping over topics that aren't relevant at all difficult.
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Offline gamey

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Keep it simple; Content is more important than Presentation; and making it useful, is about making it available.

Putting it out unedited, gives an audience more confidence what they have is authentic. Tarting it up, does not add value, except on occasions where there is very high information density. Putting the raw feed out promptly also aids communication.. we can skip over the bits we don't want. It's not as if the host doesn't have a grip - fuzzy does it well enough the raw is good. If you want edited content then that could be fed into BitShares.tv as highlights or some other presented content. An edited mumble is just more work for little added benefit.

The alternate would be to focus mumble sessions on a core topic, edit those carefully and use that as a marketing aid to describe in detail certain aspects to targeted other audiences than just those here.. pass those to MSM and let them feast on it.

I personally have never heard anyone express any concerns about authenticity.

You are right about editting have questionable value but you are seeing it from the view of someone heavily into Bitshares.  Those who just come across  the recordings will definitely be put off by long technical glitches etc. I haven't listened to an unedited  recording in a long time, but you'll be hard pressed to find a podcast elsewhere that is raw like you believe is desirable. 

Skipping forward isn't so simple when you don't know how far to skip ahead. THe process is more like skip forward, then backwards a bit, then forwards a bit.... perhaps then backwards a few seconds. etc

I always hoped the edited versions would be put on youtube.

Mainly people just don't want to wait and thats understandable.  Perhaps it would be better to not edit them. I do not know. I just know it has little to do with economics or trying to monetize a public good.
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Offline davidpbrown

Keep it simple; Content is more important than Presentation; and making it useful, is about making it available.

Putting it out unedited, gives an audience more confidence what they have is authentic. Tarting it up, does not add value, except on occasions where there is very high information density. Putting the raw feed out promptly also aids communication.. we can skip over the bits we don't want. It's not as if the host doesn't have a grip - fuzzy does it well enough the raw is good. If you want edited content then that could be fed into BitShares.tv as highlights or some other presented content. An edited mumble is just more work for little added benefit.

The alternate would be to focus mumble sessions on a core topic, edit those carefully and use that as a marketing aid to describe in detail certain aspects to targeted other audiences than just those here.. pass those to MSM and let them feast on it.
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Offline gamey

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fuzzy, are you trying out some economic experiment with Mumble?

This is what it looks like to me. You are running a free public concert out on the street where anyone can join and listen and even has permission to record it with their cameras. And then you try to somehow align incentives so that all the people (and it really could be any stranger) recording the live concert in public are somehow economically motivated to not give out the recording to someone else unless the person requesting the recording happens to possess a special sticker that you sell.

It's an interesting experiment I guess, but I think the end result will be that the economic motivation won't work out and someone (even if it is just one person) who recorded the live event will just stick it up online thereby making the stickers worthless.

Edit: My view is that if this raw recording is a public good (which it is) that we as a community value, then the community should fund that public good the same way we fund other BitShares-related public goods: delegate pay. Obviously any extra funds you can receive from ads in the final edited shows or just from donations would be useful in offsetting the delegate funds necessary. However, if this is truly something we value as a community, it should be possible to fund it entirely from delegate pay without relying on altruism or the effectiveness of advertisements (which can be bypassed).

It takes time to edit it so the audio doesn't have multi-mins of awkwardness.  When you put out the raw  one upfront lots view it and you have no way to track how many people actually view the session overall.  Not only that, it is personally demotivating when you put effort into trying to make it sound like a real show and 1/2 the people (diehards) listen to it raw. However people who are new to the  community might not want to listen to a pure hangout and might tune out when someone spends 5 mins trying to get their mic working. (for example)

AFAIK everyone has always been allowed to record it and do what they wish. 

In the end, it is just like you said at first.  If you want to get your own stickers, then figure out a way to attend and record it then post it for stickers!

It has nothing to do with economics unless Fuzzy has decided to issue a token and enforce it.  Sometimes it is smaller day to day things and not something economic or market based.

Granted I do understand your frustration.
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Offline fuzzy

Brilliant!

I'd pay .99 to get the edited version which definitely has a value-add for me!

Make the unedited free and earn compensation for the value you add.

Added value:  adds more to the cryptofresh web site - supporting its traffic.


The problem with this is that no one will buy the edited hangout (except a few generous souls like you) if we put the unedited content out because they would prefer to have it right now (unedited).  This would then also mean that noone will want to have advertisements  on the edited hangouts because very few people will listen.  History has actually shown this.  Not trying to sound foul here of course but it is just the way things are.

That would mean I'd eventually be back to paying people like aj out of pocket... :/
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Offline Stan

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Brilliant!

I'd pay .99 to get the edited version which definitely has a value-add for me!

Make the unedited free and earn compensation for the value you add.

Added value:  adds more to the cryptofresh web site - supporting its traffic.

Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract of any kind.   These are merely my opinions which I reserve the right to change at any time.

Offline fuzzy

Our mumbles are a public good.. perfect candidate for delegate funds. E.g. we're not trying to make the forums profitable.

That said, post it already :) dying to hear it.. with the rate at which things move, its relevance halves each passing day :P

I'm so thankful for everyone's constant support. Let me get in touch with the crew and point them to this thread so we can figure this out.

I've always wanted these to be more like CSPAN as opposed to fox or msnbc...I think it serves YOU better this way...
But these are not easy decisions...on one end it's incentivizing sharing, on another it is monetization (wife don't like me doing it for free anymore), and another is not letting profit bias us and hurt the community. 

A difficult balance to strike...maybe I should have opened this up to the community before we started messing around with the model.

« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 03:29:49 am by fuzzy »
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Offline roadscape

Our mumbles are a public good.. perfect candidate for delegate funds. E.g. we're not trying to make the forums profitable.

That said, post it already :) dying to hear it.. with the rate at which things move, its relevance halves each passing day :P
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Offline fuzzy

Thank you arhag. I appreciate the input. I feel this way too, but at the same time it seems most people want to get us  away from using delegate pay and become profitable on our own...so I'm doing very much what you are saying.  Testing it.

Now with that said. ..the average LTB show takes over a week to get to the public from the recording date and we are shooting for,  at most 48 hours. ..and if someone else attends, they can all record it too. Ultimately I want to see more of one thing: open participation.

It is unfortunate if people aren't willing to vote for a delegate to fund such an important function (IMHO) in our community as the Mumble hangouts. The costs aren't even that high (are they?). I am not talking about the cost of editing, creating transcripts, etc. I am only concerned about the cost of the infrastructure to allow people to run public hangout sessions, and the cost of recording those sessions and posting a raw recording (in MP3 or Ogg Vorbis format) on the internet for the people we weren't able to attend live. The cost of running a conversion from wav to mp3 or ogg is virtually nothing. The cost of upload and hosting is incredibly small these days. Mumble has functionality to record the wav file already in there. Anyone attending the hangout can do the recording, conversion, and uploading (they may just need a lesson on how to do it). The only significant cost is the cost of actually running the Mumble servers. How much do the servers cost? I doubt people aren't willing to fund delegates to pay for that (your 100% pay fuzzy.beyondbitcoin delegate is already elected after all).

Now all the other costs (your time as moderator, editing, etc.) are costs that can be covered through other means that you are attempting to develop (if the BTS community for some reason doesn't think it is worth covering those costs with delegate pay). But I don't think those costs should be paid for by attempting to hold the raw recording hostage. These are value added services on top of the raw recording. So the final edited audio is what you should be attempting to monetize (say through ads, or exclusive early access of the edited audio / convenient transcripts to UIA holders before it is eventually released to the public to maximize exposure to BitShares).

Its funny.  I would ultimately love to see others setting up and running hangouts.  I'd also like mumble to be a place where people coordinating local meetups could direct those who are interested in them but unable to physically attend. 

The difficult thing, however is that not all holders of our bts want to spend the 15 seconds it would take to share the beautiful, organic gem we have here.  People join to talk and listen, but sharing our community's gem is something that one would think would be an easy thing...yet for some reason it is not happening.  This inaction hurts all of us.

In addition to this, we are currently working on making it easy for people providing services to schedule times to actually give lectures and recognize time (recorded) walk-throug to utilizing those services as I suspect this is a severely underestimated problem in the ecosystem.

I greatly appreciate proposed solutions as opposed to trolling because we really think that beyond bitcoin should be a platform that is more of a community hub that empowers and rewards everyone who actively partivipates.  If there is a way to make this happen...I want to do my best to help it.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 03:23:04 am by fuzzy »
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..., but at the same time it seems most people want to get us  away from using delegate pay and become profitable on our own...so I'm doing very much what you are saying.  Testing it.

 The only person (that I am aware of) that thinks  you need to get away from delegate pay is the guy in your own head fuzz...

Offline arhag

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Thank you arhag. I appreciate the input. I feel this way too, but at the same time it seems most people want to get us  away from using delegate pay and become profitable on our own...so I'm doing very much what you are saying.  Testing it.

Now with that said. ..the average LTB show takes over a week to get to the public from the recording date and we are shooting for,  at most 48 hours. ..and if someone else attends, they can all record it too. Ultimately I want to see more of one thing: open participation.

It is unfortunate if people aren't willing to vote for a delegate to fund such an important function (IMHO) in our community as the Mumble hangouts. The costs aren't even that high (are they?). I am not talking about the cost of editing, creating transcripts, etc. I am only concerned about the cost of the infrastructure to allow people to run public hangout sessions, and the cost of recording those sessions and posting a raw recording (in MP3 or Ogg Vorbis format) on the internet for the people we weren't able to attend live. The cost of running a conversion from wav to mp3 or ogg is virtually nothing. The cost of upload and hosting is incredibly small these days. Mumble has functionality to record the wav file already in there. Anyone attending the hangout can do the recording, conversion, and uploading (they may just need a lesson on how to do it). The only significant cost is the cost of actually running the Mumble servers. How much do the servers cost? I doubt people aren't willing to fund delegates to pay for that (your 100% pay fuzzy.beyondbitcoin delegate is already elected after all).

Now all the other costs (your time as moderator, editing, etc.) are costs that can be covered through other means that you are attempting to develop (if the BTS community for some reason doesn't think it is worth covering those costs with delegate pay). But I don't think those costs should be paid for by attempting to hold the raw recording hostage. These are value added services on top of the raw recording. So the final edited audio is what you should be attempting to monetize (say through ads, or exclusive early access of the edited audio / convenient transcripts to UIA holders before it is eventually released to the public to maximize exposure to BitShares). 

Offline fuzzy

fuzzy, are you trying out some economic experiment with Mumble?

This is what it looks like to me. You are running a free public concert out on the street where anyone can join and listen and even has permission to record it with their cameras. And then you try to somehow align incentives so that all the people (and it really could be any stranger) recording the live concert in public are somehow economically motivated to not give out the recording to someone else unless the person requesting the recording happens to possess a special sticker that you sell.

It's an interesting experiment I guess, but I think the end result will be that the economic motivation won't work out and someone (even if it is just one person) who recorded the live event will just stick it up online thereby making the stickers worthless.

Edit: My view is that if this raw recording is a public good (which it is) that we as a community value, then the community should fund that public good the same way we fund other BitShares-related public goods: delegate pay. Obviously any extra funds you can receive from ads in the final edited shows or just from donations would be useful in offsetting the delegate funds necessary. However, if this is truly something we value as a community, it should be possible to fund it entirely from delegate pay without relying on altruism or the effectiveness of advertisements (which can be bypassed).

Thank you arhag. I appreciate the input. I feel this way too, but at the same time it seems most people want to get us  away from using delegate pay and become profitable on our own...so I'm doing very much what you are saying.  Testing it.

Now with that said. ..the average LTB show takes over a week to get to the public from the recording date and we are shooting for,  at most 48 hours. ..and if someone else attends, they can all record it too. Ultimately I want to see more of one thing: open participation.

I hope people who have been around long enough to know the crew members and myself know that we are trying our best to figure out the best way moving forward and try to have some patience with us. If they know our past actions,  that should be a good way to understand our current intentions.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 02:52:56 am by fuzzy »
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Offline fuzzy

What if we put the raw recording on cryptofresh for $0.99 :D

That would be fine. I just think it's important start trying things out that help increase internal liquidity and also incentivize people to help share our content.

We are still learning,  so it will likely not be perfect initially.  But we are noticing that it is hard to get  people to share our content on a regular basis and it is necessary that we find a way to incentivize the community to do so. ..it helps us all.

I am always  open for ideas as well so please use this thread to talk about how we could best work it.  As always, I'm trying to help. ..so  if something is doing the opposite,  I would  love to hear solutions that are better.  :)
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Offline arhag

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fuzzy, are you trying out some economic experiment with Mumble?

This is what it looks like to me. You are running a free public concert out on the street where anyone can join and listen and even has permission to record it with their cameras. And then you try to somehow align incentives so that all the people (and it really could be any stranger) recording the live concert in public are somehow economically motivated to not give out the recording to someone else unless the person requesting the recording happens to possess a special sticker that you sell.

It's an interesting experiment I guess, but I think the end result will be that the economic motivation won't work out and someone (even if it is just one person) who recorded the live event will just stick it up online thereby making the stickers worthless.

Edit: My view is that if this raw recording is a public good (which it is) that we as a community value, then the community should fund that public good the same way we fund other BitShares-related public goods: delegate pay. Obviously any extra funds you can receive from ads in the final edited shows or just from donations would be useful in offsetting the delegate funds necessary. However, if this is truly something we value as a community, it should be possible to fund it entirely from delegate pay without relying on altruism or the effectiveness of advertisements (which can be bypassed).
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 02:40:13 am by arhag »

Offline roadscape

What if we put the raw recording on cryptofresh for $0.99 :D
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Offline fuzzy

Could this be a solution for you?

https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,15804.msg203030.html#new

Of course anyone interested in writing for us would be given access and eventually our tokens as well.

Not a bad idea...and there is nothing stopping those people from asking for tips to gain access to raw content too from writers.

*edit* this includes bitshares/crypto blogs as well so long as you let us post a snippet and link to your content.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 02:33:18 am by fuzzy »
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Offline carpet ride

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I also can't get in on Fridays due to work and gotta say it's tough not being there.  Anyway we can get the raw?  Seems like delegate pay could
subsidize it


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Offline mike623317

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For those of us that have to work during the 10-11am EST mumble with BM its a little frustrating that the recording is not available. Wouldanyone be willing to share their recording for a small tip?

Thanks
Mike