Why no one is shorting bitassets?

[kov]

There's an overall lack of liquidity on the internal market, causing distortions and inefficiencies on its own. A lot of these issues will resolve themselves if/when the exchange picks up volume.

[profitofthegods]

There is no 10% penalty for expired shorts  since last hard fork on tuesday AFAIK

Oh ok cool, thanks. I can never keep up with changes.

[xeroc]

There is no 10% penalty for expired shorts  since last hard fork on tuesday AFAIK

[profitofthegods]

I agree 10% is too high, but as long as there are automated margin call orders people wanting to buy a likely to be forced to pay over the market (to beat the margin orders at call price) so there should remain a good incentive for people to close their own orders before it reaches the level of being called.

I think being able to keep a short open for a longer period of time would also be good, as automatically closing after 30 days has left a backlog of short orders being margin called.

[bitmarley]

Expiring shorts are also automated so are exposed to the same issue but everyone agrees they shouldn't be penalized 10%. If the market feed price is trailing the market price that is a separate problem that should be addressed separately. Perhaps compare the current price feed to that of yesterday or 4 hours ago to see whether a swan event is currently happening or something. But anyway it shouldn't be a policy against the short who is margin called.

[Troglodactyl]

Yes. I don't have a problem with it for margin calls, but enabling it for expirations is pretty bad.

Why should it even happen for margin calls? The whole point of putting down a certain amount of collateral is to keep you covered up to a certain market price. Once that point is reach you just unwind. The participant has already lost pretty bad at that point so I can't see any trading strategy that depends on that setup.

If a margin call happens in a rapid BTS dip, the feed may be trailing the market price, so in that scenario force covering only at the feed could be more of a black swan risk resulting in undercollateralized BitAssets.

[xeroc]

I wonder what happend with this issue:
https://github.com/BitShares/bitshares/issues/1499

[bitmarley]

Yes. I don't have a problem with it for margin calls, but enabling it for expirations is pretty bad.

Why should it even happen for margin calls? The whole point of putting down a certain amount of collateral is to keep you covered up to a certain market price. Once that point is reach you just unwind. The participant has already lost pretty bad at that point so I can't see any trading strategy that depends on that setup.

[Troglodactyl]

10% above buyback rule is arbitrary and distorts the market, good thing it was identified for the next BTA iteration

Yes. I don't have a problem with it for margin calls, but enabling it for expirations is pretty bad.

[toast]

10% above buyback rule is arbitrary and distorts the market, good thing it was identified for the next BTA iteration

[sittingduck]

"If you want to make money off of insider trading, then do something useful like the Moonstone guys instead of crying about your gambling losses."

- bitWarren Buffett.

Lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tuck Fheman]

"If you want to make money off of insider trading, then do something useful like the Moonstone guys instead of crying about your gambling losses."

- bitWarren Buffett.

[toast]

Moonstone team is bulding the BitShares equivalent of Ethereum's Mist

Let's not exaggerate too much...

[toast]

It is not unfair to shorts, you can roll over ever day if you want. It just means you have to accept your losses day by day instead of all at once. That does not increase your losses, the only thing that does is decrease your leverage (so shorting as much as before USD requires buying more BTS than before because you lost BTS from shorting).

BTS long-term HODLers are slowly calling out the superbulls who were effectively borrowing money to buy BTS. A BitUSD holder can exit a huge position with 10-15% gains depending on when he bought in, which is like calling their loans with interest and a premium.

A very simple solution is to put all fees from all assets into a pool that *BTS holders* get to draw from (not delegates not, extra interest!). Then at some point the measly income is better than the lack of interest the scared shorts are paying, and BTS price can start rising again.

[Tuck Fheman]

Reality check answer: I think you're being overly protective of BTS. And it comes across as though everybody who has doubts/critique about BTS is attacked. This is not only you, it's the culture of this forum. It has been this way since the beginning, far before there was even a mention of a merger.

This is a helpful reality check for me.  Thank you.

 

[xeroc]

Why isn't it possible to back a bitAsset like bitGold with bitUSD?

Another reason is that normally in finance someone who wants to go short GOLD means they want to profit when GOLD falls versus the USD. But in BitShares shorting the bitGOLD(i.e. GOLD/BTS) and does not give the same kind of exposure. It would be good if there was a way to establish an asset whose "Last Price" was a formula instead of a direct price feed. For example: bitGOLDUSD = GOLD/USD. This is the asset that the wider market really wants. At the moment shorting bitAssets means you increase your long exposure to BTS. So if the market trend for BTS is down nobody wants to short.

Soon you will be able to have BitGOLD backed by BitUSD.

[Xeldal]

Another reason is that normally in finance someone who wants to go short GOLD means they want to profit when GOLD falls versus the USD. But in BitShares shorting the bitGOLD(i.e. GOLD/BTS) and does not give the same kind of exposure. It would be good if there was a way to establish an asset whose "Last Price" was a formula instead of a direct price feed. For example: bitGOLDUSD = GOLD/USD. This is the asset that the wider market really wants. At the moment shorting bitAssets means you increase your long exposure to BTS. So if the market trend for BTS is down nobody wants to short.

Soon you will be able to have BitGOLD backed by BitUSD.

I hope that you don't imply that one could create bitGold by shorting BitUSD but rather trade BitGold vs.BitUSD right?

Means trade bitUSD to bitGold. 

BTS is the collateral for the whole system, you cannot create assets without it.

You can already trade bitUSD:bitGold, so I don't think that's what he means.

[starspirit]

Another reason is that normally in finance someone who wants to go short GOLD means they want to profit when GOLD falls versus the USD. But in BitShares shorting the bitGOLD(i.e. GOLD/BTS) and does not give the same kind of exposure. It would be good if there was a way to establish an asset whose "Last Price" was a formula instead of a direct price feed. For example: bitGOLDUSD = GOLD/USD. This is the asset that the wider market really wants. At the moment shorting bitAssets means you increase your long exposure to BTS. So if the market trend for BTS is down nobody wants to short.

Soon you will be able to have BitGOLD backed by BitUSD.

I hope that you don't imply that one could create bitGold by shorting BitUSD but rather trade BitGold vs.BitUSD right?

Means trade bitUSD to bitGold. 

BTS is the collateral for the whole system, you cannot create assets without it.

Why isn't it possible to back a bitAsset like bitGold with bitUSD?

[Ander]

Another reason is that normally in finance someone who wants to go short GOLD means they want to profit when GOLD falls versus the USD. But in BitShares shorting the bitGOLD(i.e. GOLD/BTS) and does not give the same kind of exposure. It would be good if there was a way to establish an asset whose "Last Price" was a formula instead of a direct price feed. For example: bitGOLDUSD = GOLD/USD. This is the asset that the wider market really wants. At the moment shorting bitAssets means you increase your long exposure to BTS. So if the market trend for BTS is down nobody wants to short.

Soon you will be able to have BitGOLD backed by BitUSD.

I hope that you don't imply that one could create bitGold by shorting BitUSD but rather trade BitGold vs.BitUSD right?

Means trade bitUSD to bitGold. 

BTS is the collateral for the whole system, you cannot create assets without it.

[xeroc]

In order to short gold with usd you will need bts as collater to short usd in the first place .. don't you?!!

[mf-tzo]

Afaik he is talking about shorting GOLD with USD as collateral ..
Is this bad for you?

If that is the case what would be the purpose of BTS? Just the internal token of the exchange like XRP? To me the value of BTS comes from creating bitassets by short selling. If I can short sell a bitasset to create another bitasset then why would I ever need BTS?

I am sure I am again missing something so please elaborate..

[xeroc]

Afaik he is talking about shorting GOLD with USD as collateral ..
Is this bad for you?

[mf-tzo]

Another reason is that normally in finance someone who wants to go short GOLD means they want to profit when GOLD falls versus the USD. But in BitShares shorting the bitGOLD(i.e. GOLD/BTS) and does not give the same kind of exposure. It would be good if there was a way to establish an asset whose "Last Price" was a formula instead of a direct price feed. For example: bitGOLDUSD = GOLD/USD. This is the asset that the wider market really wants. At the moment shorting bitAssets means you increase your long exposure to BTS. So if the market trend for BTS is down nobody wants to short.

Soon you will be able to have BitGOLD backed by BitUSD.

I hope that you don't imply that one could create bitGold by shorting BitUSD but rather trade BitGold vs.BitUSD right?

[Tuck Fheman]

I wish I had a clue and could trade like this too 

buy high, sell low, works for me, i think, let me ask ander.

all i know is, avoid any tab that doesn't say buy or sell and use each of those two tabs in equal amounts. if in doubt, consult fontas.

[Tuck Fheman]

Thats what happened in BTS.  People who have never been on margin before shorted bitUSD because they were bulish on BTS.  But instead BTS went down a lot, and they lost a huge amount of BTS.  So they think "this is bullshit", and they get mad, and they sell all their remaining BTS.

[liondani]

Ask bm if he will change it immediately...

Sent from my ALCATEL ONE TOUCH 997D

[yellowecho]

I shorted bitUSD ~20 days ago and now I'm losing my ass.   That's probably why no one is shorting.. hell, I might as well just double down my shorts now and give all my BTS away for free at this point.

Ditto... I'm screwed

The 30 day forced short really fucks the shorter.  It's understandable why people are pissed off.. this needs to be fixed immediately.

[lil_jay890]

I shorted bitUSD ~20 days ago and now I'm losing my ass.   That's probably why no one is shorting.. hell, I might as well just double down my shorts now and give all my BTS away for free at this point.

Ditto... I'm screwed

[yellowecho]

I shorted bitUSD ~20 days ago and now I'm losing my ass.   That's probably why no one is shorting.. hell, I might as well just double down my shorts now and give all my BTS away for free at this point.

[bitmarley]

basically the yield today comes from the interest that has to be payed by SHORTs

Why do shorts offer to pay a yield? Why not short and offer zero pct? How did the yield get to 5% especially in the current climate where ppl are asking why there aren't enough shorts? 

[xeroc]

Since this thread was wondering about bitUSD shorts and morphed into a *I wish I knew* thread.. Guess it's a great place for me to pose the question:



What exactly does that Yield figure mean? Does this mean if I am
holding bitUSD in my account right now I am getting a 5.82% annual interest
rate on it? Or is that a 30 day?

Confirmed .. anually interest.

Can anyone explain to me how the Yield comes about.. because look further down
the list at these assets that are making a Yield at a market cap as little at
$7.. Heck TRY is running on empty from what I can tell.. yet a huge Yield?

If you move bitUSD that you have held for at least 24h .. the network will automatically pay the yield to you.
give it a try and send your bitUSD back to your self .. you will see ..

BitUSD seems to be doing AMAZING... why? How?

I have no idea.

I have been asked in recent days a few times about where that number comes from to which I only can say 'from bitsharesblocks'

Really like to offer a smarter answer in the future.. so I defer to all of you on this topic.[/size]

it's alittle outdated: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,8630.0.html

basically the yield today comes from the interest that has to be payed by SHORTs

[BunkerChainLabs-DataSecurityNode]

Since this thread was wondering about bitUSD shorts and morphed into a *I wish I knew* thread.. Guess it's a great place for me to pose the question:



What exactly does that Yield figure mean? Does this mean if I am holding bitUSD in my account right now I am getting a 5.82% annual interest rate on it? Or is that a 30 day?

Can anyone explain to me how the Yield comes about.. because look further down the list at these assets that are making a Yield at a market cap as little at $7.. Heck TRY is running on empty from what I can tell.. yet a huge Yield?

BitUSD seems to be doing AMAZING... why? How?

I have been asked in recent days a few times about where that number comes from to which I only can say 'from bitsharesblocks'

Really like to offer a smarter answer in the future.. so I defer to all of you on this topic.

[fuzzy]

Reality check answer: I think you're being overly protective of BTS. And it comes across as though everybody who has doubts/critique about BTS is attacked. This is not only you, it's the culture of this forum. It has been this way since the beginning, far before there was even a mention of a merger.

This is a helpful reality check for me.  Thank you.

[zerosum]

I, personally, increased the # of BTS I have by ~45% in the last month or so with no new money involved... and about 50% of that was because...  the market rules and attitude towards shorts sucks...

I wish I had a clue and could trade like this too 

In the meantime I will stick with things I know best coding some python and doing support for free 

I wish I could code like pro/you. That way I would not have to give free advice or increase my position and to end up with more BTS but less money...

So here is the perfect place to give an example of what you SHOULD say here Tony (if you want people to respect and listen to you). 
"I wish I could code like pro/you. That way I would not have to give free advice or increase my position and to end up with more BTS but less money... "
could be:  "I wish I could get someone to understand that people like me who are shorting bitAssets into existence are also getting put in a place that puts too much risk to incentivize my doing so..."

You see how this takes Xeroc out of it and focuses on the issue?  Xeroc is yet another person who busts his butt (and doesn't need to).

I get it fuzz...no Gut at Englesias, no place at Bitch-shares... I will try working on it for your satisfaction! I promise... I understand it will never be gut enough for your and or beyond (pun punt and whatever surely intended) but hey...someday your son might have to learn another language and I do hope he sees the same hostility!
Cheers!

It has nothing to do with language. You intentionally inserted Xeroc in there as though he was somehow part of the problem.  I don't know if I have the patience to try to explain it any further because for some reason you are giving me hostility over "hostility" that I do not think I have shown you. 

OK fuzz... I did not start it... he did:
" wish I had a clue and could trade like this too  :-\"
Which, btw, was in response to a comment by me not talking about trading skills but explaining that a man with half a brain (me) can take advantage of a screwed up system, mind you!

On which I quite innocently responded:
"I wish I could code like pro/you. "

??

So who started it? ....Me?.... Sorry....  I did ? Sorry  Did I?

[monsterer]

hehe I thought I was a coder too...back in 1986 and again in 2007...
Proof to the contrary is available upon request! 

And I spell humor.... humour which is another good explanation, isn't it 

Well, Brits are known for their sarcasm, so that figures!

[graffenwalder]

I, personally, increased the # of BTS I have by ~45% in the last month or so with no new money involved... and about 50% of that was because...  the market rules and attitude towards shorts sucks...

I wish I had a clue and could trade like this too 

In the meantime I will stick with things I know best coding some python and doing support for free 

I wish I could code like pro/you. That way I would not have to give free advice or increase my position and to end up with more BTS but less money...

So here is the perfect place to give an example of what you SHOULD say here Tony (if you want people to respect and listen to you). 
"I wish I could code like pro/you. That way I would not have to give free advice or increase my position and to end up with more BTS but less money... "
could be:  "I wish I could get someone to understand that people like me who are shorting bitAssets into existence are also getting put in a place that puts too much risk to incentivize my doing so..."o

You see how this takes Xeroc out of it and focuses on the issue?  Xeroc is yet another person who busts his butt (and doesn't need to).

I get it fuzz...no Gut at Englesias, no place at Bitch-shares... I will try working on it for your satisfaction! I promise... I understand it will never be gut enough for your and or beyond (pun punt and whatever surely intended) but hey...someday your son might have to learn another language and I do hope he sees the same hostility!
Cheers!

It has nothing to do with language. You intentionally inserted Xeroc in there as though he was somehow part of the problem.  I don't know if I have the patience to try to explain it any further because for some reason you are giving me hostility over "hostility" that I do not think I have shown you. 

Can anyone here be a reality check for me and/or Tony?  Am I seeming hostile? 

Oh...and P.S. Tony, don't bring my son into anything you say please.  He is off limits in any discussion unless we are talking about cute babies.  But since you mentioned it, I have asked my wife to teach him of his culture and sincerely hope he learns the language from her because I am ashamed that in America we have largely been raised to really know only one language.  I have taught myself a little french along the way but it is a sore excuse compared to your command of the English language.

Reality check answer: I think you're being overly protective of BTS. And it comes across as though everybody who has doubts/critique about BTS is attacked. This is not only you, it's the culture of this forum. It has been this way since the beginning, far before there was even a mention of a merger.

[fuzzy]

I, personally, increased the # of BTS I have by ~45% in the last month or so with no new money involved... and about 50% of that was because...  the market rules and attitude towards shorts sucks...

I wish I had a clue and could trade like this too 

In the meantime I will stick with things I know best coding some python and doing support for free 

I wish I could code like pro/you. That way I would not have to give free advice or increase my position and to end up with more BTS but less money...

So here is the perfect place to give an example of what you SHOULD say here Tony (if you want people to respect and listen to you). 
"I wish I could code like pro/you. That way I would not have to give free advice or increase my position and to end up with more BTS but less money... "
could be:  "I wish I could get someone to understand that people like me who are shorting bitAssets into existence are also getting put in a place that puts too much risk to incentivize my doing so..."

You see how this takes Xeroc out of it and focuses on the issue?  Xeroc is yet another person who busts his butt (and doesn't need to).

I get it fuzz...no Gut at Englesias, no place at Bitch-shares... I will try working on it for your satisfaction! I promise... I understand it will never be gut enough for your and or beyond (pun punt and whatever surely intended) but hey...someday your son might have to learn another language and I do hope he sees the same hostility!
Cheers!

It has nothing to do with language. You intentionally inserted Xeroc in there as though he was somehow part of the problem.  I don't know if I have the patience to try to explain it any further because for some reason you are giving me hostility over "hostility" that I do not think I have shown you. 

Can anyone here be a reality check for me and/or Tony?  Am I seeming hostile? 

Oh...and P.S. Tony, don't bring my son into anything you say please.  He is off limits in any discussion unless we are talking about cute babies.  But since you mentioned it, I have asked my wife to teach him of his culture and sincerely hope he learns the language from her because I am ashamed that in America we have largely been raised to really know only one language.  I have taught myself a little french along the way but it is a sore excuse compared to your command of the English language.  

[zerosum]

I wish I could code like pro/you. That way I would not have to give free advice or increase my position and to end up with more BTS but less money...

I thought you were a coder? That would at least go some way to explaining your incredibly dry sense of humour!

hehe I thought I was a coder too...back in 1986 and again in 2007...
Proof to the contrary is available upon request! 

And I spell humor.... humour which is another good explanation, isn't it 

[zerosum]

I, personally, increased the # of BTS I have by ~45% in the last month or so with no new money involved... and about 50% of that was because...  the market rules and attitude towards shorts sucks...

I wish I had a clue and could trade like this too 

In the meantime I will stick with things I know best coding some python and doing support for free 

I wish I could code like pro/you. That way I would not have to give free advice or increase my position and to end up with more BTS but less money...

So here is the perfect place to give an example of what you SHOULD say here Tony (if you want people to respect and listen to you). 
"I wish I could code like pro/you. That way I would not have to give free advice or increase my position and to end up with more BTS but less money... "
could be:  "I wish I could get someone to understand that people like me who are shorting bitAssets into existence are also getting put in a place that puts too much risk to incentivize my doing so..."

You see how this takes Xeroc out of it and focuses on the issue?  Xeroc is yet another person who busts his butt (and doesn't need to).

I get it fuzz...no Gut at Englesias, no place at Bitch-shares... I will try working on it for your satisfaction! I promise... I understand it will never be gut enough for your and or beyond (pun punt and whatever surely intended) but hey...someday your son might have to learn another language and I do hope he sees the same hostility!
Cheers!

[fuzzy]

I, personally, increased the # of BTS I have by ~45% in the last month or so with no new money involved... and about 50% of that was because...  the market rules and attitude towards shorts sucks...

I wish I had a clue and could trade like this too 

In the meantime I will stick with things I know best coding some python and doing support for free 

I wish I could code like pro/you. That way I would not have to give free advice or increase my position and to end up with more BTS but less money...

So here is the perfect place to give an example of what you SHOULD say here Tony (if you want people to respect and listen to you). 
"I wish I could code like pro/you. That way I would not have to give free advice or increase my position and to end up with more BTS but less money... "
could be:  "I wish I could get someone to understand that people like me who are shorting bitAssets into existence are also getting put in a place that puts too much risk to incentivize my doing so..."

You see how this takes Xeroc out of it and focuses on the issue?  Xeroc is yet another person who busts his butt (and doesn't need to). 

[monsterer]

I wish I could code like pro/you. That way I would not have to give free advice or increase my position and to end up with more BTS but less money...

I thought you were a coder? That would at least go some way to explaining your incredibly dry sense of humour!

[zerosum]

I, personally, increased the # of BTS I have by ~45% in the last month or so with no new money involved... and about 50% of that was because...  the market rules and attitude towards shorts sucks...

I wish I had a clue and could trade like this too 

In the meantime I will stick with things I know best coding some python and doing support for free 

I wish I could code like pro/you. That way I would not have to give free advice or increase my position and to end up with more BTS but less money...

[bitmarley]

Is anyone aware of a useful help page for user who want to short with BitShares?

[inarizushi]

Because the market rules suck for shorts. I lost near 25% of my BTS because of it.

Unless you lost specifically because of the bug, I dont think you lost due to the market rules.


The reason people lost BTS is because:

* Short bitUSD means being MARGIN LONG BTS.
* If you are MARGIN LONG anything, and that thing just goes down and down and down, you lose a huge chunk of it eventually when you get margin called.  Depending on your leverage, and how much it goes down, and the margin call, its quite possible to lose absolutely everything.


Many people here just do not have experience with margin.  If you just buy and hold something (like buy and hold BTS), it is okay to just never sell and hold no matter how much it goes down.

But if you are on margin you CANNOT do that.  You must have a stop loss and sell to cut your losses at soem point, or you will get margin called any lose it all.

Thats what happened in BTS.  People who have never been on margin before shorted bitUSD because they were bulish on BTS.  But instead BTS went down a lot, and they lost a huge amount of BTS.  So they think "this is bullshit", and they get mad, and they sell all their remaining BTS.


The problem is that shorting bitUSD was something that was really for professional traders to do, not for average BTS holders.  And yet a bunch of us normal BTS holders shorted bitUSD and got burned by margin.  (I didnt.  I got burned by margin in other things years back and will never use it again, so I have never shorted bitUSD). 


Anyways, I think that there are a lot of people out there who lost because of their margin position going against them, and are now blaming BTS.  Its not BTS' fault that thats how margin works.   If you bet on margin on are wrong, you have to lose your BTS, because your BTS is going to the people who own bitUSD, because that bitUSD is worth more BTS now.  Thats how it works.

Yeah, we all should have bought BitUSD instead of shorting them, how silly are we. Wait...

It's not that difficult to understand that you increase your exposition to BTS, you don't need to be a professional trader to understand that.
But here is what do sucks :
- you cannot cover with the collateral
- when you partially cover, you don't get the covered collateral. Obviously you should make numerous little short orders, but that's only obvious afterwards.
- the 10% rule after 30 days. Combined with the fact that nobody wants to short new bitAssets, this creates a sell pressure at 9.99% above the feed price when cove time happens

Today, supporting BTS means shorting some bitAssets so that people like me, who believed in all the vision and bull threads and kept shorting, could exit their short positions and get some rest, forget about al that shit, hodl those BTS and come back in a month with a smile without having to watch coinmarketcap.

[xeroc]

I, personally, increased the # of BTS I have by ~45% in the last month or so with no new money involved... and about 50% of that was because...  the market rules and attitude towards shorts sucks...

I wish I had a clue and could trade like this too 

In the meantime I will stick with things I know best coding some python and doing support for free 

[zerosum]

Because the market rules suck for shorts. I lost near 25% of my BTS because of it.

Unless you lost specifically because of the bug, I dont think you lost due to the market rules.


The reason people lost BTS is because:

* Short bitUSD means being MARGIN LONG BTS.
* If you are MARGIN LONG anything, and that thing just goes down and down and down, you lose a huge chunk of it eventually when you get margin called.  Depending on your leverage, and how much it goes down, and the margin call, its quite possible to lose absolutely everything.


Many people here just do not have experience with margin.  If you just buy and hold something (like buy and hold BTS), it is okay to just never sell and hold no matter how much it goes down.

But if you are on margin you CANNOT do that.  You must have a stop loss and sell to cut your losses at soem point, or you will get margin called any lose it all.

Thats what happened in BTS.  People who have never been on margin before shorted bitUSD because they were bulish on BTS.  But instead BTS went down a lot, and they lost a huge amount of BTS.  So they think "this is bullshit", and they get mad, and they sell all their remaining BTS.


The problem is that shorting bitUSD was something that was really for professional traders to do, not for average BTS holders.  And yet a bunch of us normal BTS holders shorted bitUSD and got burned by margin.  (I didnt.  I got burned by margin in other things years back and will never use it again, so I have never shorted bitUSD). 


Anyways, I think that there are a lot of people out there who lost because of their margin position going against them, and are now blaming BTS.  Its not BTS' fault that thats how margin works.   If you bet on margin on are wrong, you have to lose your BTS, because your BTS is going to the people who own bitUSD, because that bitUSD is worth more BTS now.  Thats how it works.

Because the market rules suck for shorts.

 I, personally, increased the # of BTS I have by ~45% in the last month or so with no new money involved... and about 50% of that was because...  the market rules and attitude towards shorts sucks...

[Ander]

Because the market rules suck for shorts. I lost near 25% of my BTS because of it.

Unless you lost specifically because of the bug, I dont think you lost due to the market rules.


The reason people lost BTS is because:

* Short bitUSD means being MARGIN LONG BTS.
* If you are MARGIN LONG anything, and that thing just goes down and down and down, you lose a huge chunk of it eventually when you get margin called.  Depending on your leverage, and how much it goes down, and the margin call, its quite possible to lose absolutely everything.


Many people here just do not have experience with margin.  If you just buy and hold something (like buy and hold BTS), it is okay to just never sell and hold no matter how much it goes down.

But if you are on margin you CANNOT do that.  You must have a stop loss and sell to cut your losses at soem point, or you will get margin called any lose it all.

Thats what happened in BTS.  People who have never been on margin before shorted bitUSD because they were bulish on BTS.  But instead BTS went down a lot, and they lost a huge amount of BTS.  So they think "this is bullshit", and they get mad, and they sell all their remaining BTS.


The problem is that shorting bitUSD was something that was really for professional traders to do, not for average BTS holders.  And yet a bunch of us normal BTS holders shorted bitUSD and got burned by margin.  (I didnt.  I got burned by margin in other things years back and will never use it again, so I have never shorted bitUSD). 


Anyways, I think that there are a lot of people out there who lost because of their margin position going against them, and are now blaming BTS.  Its not BTS' fault that thats how margin works.   If you bet on margin on are wrong, you have to lose your BTS, because your BTS is going to the people who own bitUSD, because that bitUSD is worth more BTS now.  Thats how it works.

[alt]

I am curious as to why nobody is shorting bitusd etc at these price and with all the discussions about bitassets 1,2,3 I am afraid I may have misunderstood something...So please if I am missing something here please someone let me know before I lose all my BTS from shorting...

Is it:

People don't short because they believe BTS will further fall? or
People don't short because once bitasset 3 and bond market gets implemented everyone who shorts bitusd v1 will lose all his BTS?


Thanks

Because the market rules suck for shorts. I lost near 25% of my BTS because of it.

I think protect expired order at feed price will resolve the problem right?this will happen at 5.5 when v0.9 hard fork
do you think that will work?

[starspirit]

Another reason is that normally in finance someone who wants to go short GOLD means they want to profit when GOLD falls versus the USD. But in BitShares shorting the bitGOLD(i.e. GOLD/BTS) and does not give the same kind of exposure. It would be good if there was a way to establish an asset whose "Last Price" was a formula instead of a direct price feed. For example: bitGOLDUSD = GOLD/USD. This is the asset that the wider market really wants. At the moment shorting bitAssets means you increase your long exposure to BTS. So if the market trend for BTS is down nobody wants to short.

Soon you will be able to have BitGOLD backed by BitUSD.

I would like to see only the stable currencies backed by BTS (or BTC), and see all other trading assets collateralised by the currencies for the reasons stated, as they would be in traditional exchange and margin lending operations. I also think this calls for a different asset structure for each class - while currencies need to be fungible, trading positions do not, providing a lot more flexibility in their design.

Because the market rules suck for shorts. I lost near 25% of my BTS because of it.

What market rule has caused your hardship? It would be useful to know if that is being ameliorated going forward.

[Ggozzo]

I am curious as to why nobody is shorting bitusd etc at these price and with all the discussions about bitassets 1,2,3 I am afraid I may have misunderstood something...So please if I am missing something here please someone let me know before I lose all my BTS from shorting...

Is it:

People don't short because they believe BTS will further fall? or
People don't short because once bitasset 3 and bond market gets implemented everyone who shorts bitusd v1 will lose all his BTS?


Thanks

Because the market rules suck for shorts. I lost near 25% of my BTS because of it.

[fuzzy]

Soon you will be able to have BitGOLD backed by BitUSD.

there's a nugget of gold hidden in this thread!

oh shit...that is potentially huge...

[Pheonike]

It will be great when the sysnthetic markets are availaible. Then you you will have multiple asset pairs giving markets price signals which should make it harder for any single peg to fail.

[maqifrnswa]

Soon you will be able to have BitGOLD backed by BitUSD.

there's a nugget of gold hidden in this thread!

[bytemaster]

Another reason is that normally in finance someone who wants to go short GOLD means they want to profit when GOLD falls versus the USD. But in BitShares shorting the bitGOLD(i.e. GOLD/BTS) and does not give the same kind of exposure. It would be good if there was a way to establish an asset whose "Last Price" was a formula instead of a direct price feed. For example: bitGOLDUSD = GOLD/USD. This is the asset that the wider market really wants. At the moment shorting bitAssets means you increase your long exposure to BTS. So if the market trend for BTS is down nobody wants to short.

Soon you will be able to have BitGOLD backed by BitUSD.

[bitmarley]

Another reason is that normally in finance someone who wants to go short GOLD means they want to profit when GOLD falls versus the USD. But in BitShares shorting the bitGOLD(i.e. GOLD/BTS) and does not give the same kind of exposure. It would be good if there was a way to establish an asset whose "Last Price" was a formula instead of a direct price feed. For example: bitGOLDUSD = GOLD/USD. This is the asset that the wider market really wants. At the moment shorting bitAssets means you increase your long exposure to BTS. So if the market trend for BTS is down nobody wants to short. 

[mf-tzo]

As long as I haven't missunderstood something and something really bad happens with the new implementation causing me to lose my BTS because I am shorting that's all I need to know...

Thanks Riverhead

[Riverhead]

Just waiting for my client to sync then I'll be shorting. Plan to buy more every couple of days and short until the price starts to recover. In for a penny in for a pound .

[mf-tzo]

I am curious as to why nobody is shorting bitusd etc at these price and with all the discussions about bitassets 1,2,3 I am afraid I may have misunderstood something...So please if I am missing something here please someone let me know before I lose all my BTS from shorting...

Is it:

People don't short because they believe BTS will further fall? or
People don't short because once bitasset 3 and bond market gets implemented everyone who shorts bitusd v1 will lose all his BTS?


Thanks