Author Topic: Why no one is shorting bitassets?  (Read 10767 times)

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zerosum

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Because the market rules suck for shorts. I lost near 25% of my BTS because of it.

Unless you lost specifically because of the bug, I dont think you lost due to the market rules.


The reason people lost BTS is because:

* Short bitUSD means being MARGIN LONG BTS.
* If you are MARGIN LONG anything, and that thing just goes down and down and down, you lose a huge chunk of it eventually when you get margin called.  Depending on your leverage, and how much it goes down, and the margin call, its quite possible to lose absolutely everything.


Many people here just do not have experience with margin.  If you just buy and hold something (like buy and hold BTS), it is okay to just never sell and hold no matter how much it goes down.

But if you are on margin you CANNOT do that.  You must have a stop loss and sell to cut your losses at soem point, or you will get margin called any lose it all.

Thats what happened in BTS.  People who have never been on margin before shorted bitUSD because they were bulish on BTS.  But instead BTS went down a lot, and they lost a huge amount of BTS.  So they think "this is bullshit", and they get mad, and they sell all their remaining BTS.


The problem is that shorting bitUSD was something that was really for professional traders to do, not for average BTS holders.  And yet a bunch of us normal BTS holders shorted bitUSD and got burned by margin.  (I didnt.  I got burned by margin in other things years back and will never use it again, so I have never shorted bitUSD). 


Anyways, I think that there are a lot of people out there who lost because of their margin position going against them, and are now blaming BTS.  Its not BTS' fault that thats how margin works.   If you bet on margin on are wrong, you have to lose your BTS, because your BTS is going to the people who own bitUSD, because that bitUSD is worth more BTS now.  Thats how it works.



Because the market rules suck for shorts.

 I, personally, increased the # of BTS I have by ~45% in the last month or so with no new money involved... and about 50% of that was because...  the market rules and attitude towards shorts sucks...


Offline Ander

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Because the market rules suck for shorts. I lost near 25% of my BTS because of it.

Unless you lost specifically because of the bug, I dont think you lost due to the market rules.


The reason people lost BTS is because:

* Short bitUSD means being MARGIN LONG BTS.
* If you are MARGIN LONG anything, and that thing just goes down and down and down, you lose a huge chunk of it eventually when you get margin called.  Depending on your leverage, and how much it goes down, and the margin call, its quite possible to lose absolutely everything.


Many people here just do not have experience with margin.  If you just buy and hold something (like buy and hold BTS), it is okay to just never sell and hold no matter how much it goes down.

But if you are on margin you CANNOT do that.  You must have a stop loss and sell to cut your losses at soem point, or you will get margin called any lose it all.

Thats what happened in BTS.  People who have never been on margin before shorted bitUSD because they were bulish on BTS.  But instead BTS went down a lot, and they lost a huge amount of BTS.  So they think "this is bullshit", and they get mad, and they sell all their remaining BTS.


The problem is that shorting bitUSD was something that was really for professional traders to do, not for average BTS holders.  And yet a bunch of us normal BTS holders shorted bitUSD and got burned by margin.  (I didnt.  I got burned by margin in other things years back and will never use it again, so I have never shorted bitUSD). 


Anyways, I think that there are a lot of people out there who lost because of their margin position going against them, and are now blaming BTS.  Its not BTS' fault that thats how margin works.   If you bet on margin on are wrong, you have to lose your BTS, because your BTS is going to the people who own bitUSD, because that bitUSD is worth more BTS now.  Thats how it works.

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Offline alt

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I am curious as to why nobody is shorting bitusd etc at these price and with all the discussions about bitassets 1,2,3 I am afraid I may have misunderstood something...So please if I am missing something here please someone let me know before I lose all my BTS from shorting...

Is it:

People don't short because they believe BTS will further fall? or
People don't short because once bitasset 3 and bond market gets implemented everyone who shorts bitusd v1 will lose all his BTS?


Thanks

Because the market rules suck for shorts. I lost near 25% of my BTS because of it.
I think protect expired order at feed price will resolve the problem right?this will happen at 5.5 when v0.9 hard fork
do you think that will work?

Offline starspirit

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Another reason is that normally in finance someone who wants to go short GOLD means they want to profit when GOLD falls versus the USD. But in BitShares shorting the bitGOLD(i.e. GOLD/BTS) and does not give the same kind of exposure. It would be good if there was a way to establish an asset whose "Last Price" was a formula instead of a direct price feed. For example: bitGOLDUSD = GOLD/USD. This is the asset that the wider market really wants. At the moment shorting bitAssets means you increase your long exposure to BTS. So if the market trend for BTS is down nobody wants to short.
Soon you will be able to have BitGOLD backed by BitUSD.

I would like to see only the stable currencies backed by BTS (or BTC), and see all other trading assets collateralised by the currencies for the reasons stated, as they would be in traditional exchange and margin lending operations. I also think this calls for a different asset structure for each class - while currencies need to be fungible, trading positions do not, providing a lot more flexibility in their design.

Because the market rules suck for shorts. I lost near 25% of my BTS because of it.
What market rule has caused your hardship? It would be useful to know if that is being ameliorated going forward.


Ggozzo

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I am curious as to why nobody is shorting bitusd etc at these price and with all the discussions about bitassets 1,2,3 I am afraid I may have misunderstood something...So please if I am missing something here please someone let me know before I lose all my BTS from shorting...

Is it:

People don't short because they believe BTS will further fall? or
People don't short because once bitasset 3 and bond market gets implemented everyone who shorts bitusd v1 will lose all his BTS?


Thanks

Because the market rules suck for shorts. I lost near 25% of my BTS because of it.

Offline fuzzy

Soon you will be able to have BitGOLD backed by BitUSD.

there's a nugget of gold hidden in this thread!

oh shit...that is potentially huge...
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Offline Pheonike


It will be great when the sysnthetic markets are availaible. Then you you will have multiple asset pairs giving markets price signals which should make it harder for any single peg to fail.

Offline maqifrnswa

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Soon you will be able to have BitGOLD backed by BitUSD.

there's a nugget of gold hidden in this thread!
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Offline bytemaster

Another reason is that normally in finance someone who wants to go short GOLD means they want to profit when GOLD falls versus the USD. But in BitShares shorting the bitGOLD(i.e. GOLD/BTS) and does not give the same kind of exposure. It would be good if there was a way to establish an asset whose "Last Price" was a formula instead of a direct price feed. For example: bitGOLDUSD = GOLD/USD. This is the asset that the wider market really wants. At the moment shorting bitAssets means you increase your long exposure to BTS. So if the market trend for BTS is down nobody wants to short.
Soon you will be able to have BitGOLD backed by BitUSD.
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Offline bitmarley

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Another reason is that normally in finance someone who wants to go short GOLD means they want to profit when GOLD falls versus the USD. But in BitShares shorting the bitGOLD(i.e. GOLD/BTS) and does not give the same kind of exposure. It would be good if there was a way to establish an asset whose "Last Price" was a formula instead of a direct price feed. For example: bitGOLDUSD = GOLD/USD. This is the asset that the wider market really wants. At the moment shorting bitAssets means you increase your long exposure to BTS. So if the market trend for BTS is down nobody wants to short. 

Offline mf-tzo

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As long as I haven't missunderstood something and something really bad happens with the new implementation causing me to lose my BTS because I am shorting that's all I need to know...

Thanks Riverhead

Offline Riverhead


Just waiting for my client to sync then I'll be shorting. Plan to buy more every couple of days and short until the price starts to recover. In for a penny in for a pound :).

Offline mf-tzo

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I am curious as to why nobody is shorting bitusd etc at these price and with all the discussions about bitassets 1,2,3 I am afraid I may have misunderstood something...So please if I am missing something here please someone let me know before I lose all my BTS from shorting...

Is it:

People don't short because they believe BTS will further fall? or
People don't short because once bitasset 3 and bond market gets implemented everyone who shorts bitusd v1 will lose all his BTS?


Thanks