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Online 天籁

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30d COVER DESIGN HAS BEEN the BIGGEST BUG to KILL BTS!!!
« on: April 28, 2015, 11:25:33 PM »

The most true believers in BTS have been the biggest short to kill BTS in fact! It is ridiculous! :'(

edit:30天平仓设计要求:1、货币30天完成铸造、回炉重铸,这是荒唐的;2、货币铸造自愿,回炉重铸强制,回炉重铸过程成为持续打压BTS价格的杀手、机器人,是人类肉体根本不可能与之对抗的。

edit: WHY this SUPER BUG are not fixed immediately?@Stan & BM
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 05:19:45 AM by 天籁 »
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Offline fuzzy

Re: 30d COVER DESIGN HAS BEEN the BIGGEST BUG to KILL BTS!!!
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2015, 11:27:23 PM »
The most true believers of BTS have been the biggest short to kill BTS in fact! It is ridiculous! :'(

can we get an explanation of what he is talking about?
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Offline bitmeat

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Re: 30d COVER DESIGN HAS BEEN the BIGGEST BUG to KILL BTS!!!
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2015, 11:33:31 PM »
My guess: the hard core believers in BTS are the ones that short BitUSD and provide liquidity. Now they are being affected, and leaving BTS altogether, cutting their losses.

Offline fuzzy

Re: 30d COVER DESIGN HAS BEEN the BIGGEST BUG to KILL BTS!!!
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2015, 12:02:38 AM »
My guess: the hard core believers in BTS are the ones that short BitUSD and provide liquidity. Now they are being affected, and leaving BTS altogether, cutting their losses.

Isn't this something tonyk has talked about?
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zerosum

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Re: 30d COVER DESIGN HAS BEEN the BIGGEST BUG to KILL BTS!!!
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2015, 12:19:42 AM »
My guess: the hard core believers in BTS are the ones that short BitUSD and provide liquidity. Now they are being affected, and leaving BTS altogether, cutting their losses.

Now they are leaving?

That is a weird statement ... they have been leaving for months but hey... only those that work and being paid are considered to be contributing to Bitshares... the ones that have been warning for 6+ mo. and/or risking their money in a broken system are just complainers...

F*en idiots - bitAssets 3.0 is months and months away... and the affiliate program gig - a total joke that will never work as a payment system for everything.
In the mean time (6-9 mo. or so) let's continue killing the ones that are actually risking something to produce the actual product...they are not important...they are not paid by the blockchain....

[edit]
And btw the 30 days rule is not the issue....it is just the trigger that makes the overexposed bulls  face reality...the real issues are 200% collateral from shorts( plus a soft collateral  mind you) and a bug persistent for 2 months with no urgency to fix it....which is making expiring shorts (not the called ones) pay 10% penalty. But why hurry to fix it.?!...may 5 is fine as well  and for less than 200% collateral?...let them fools wait for bitA 3.0....

« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 12:34:13 AM by tonyk2 »

Offline fuzzy

Re: 30d COVER DESIGN HAS BEEN the BIGGEST BUG to KILL BTS!!!
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2015, 01:03:52 AM »
My guess: the hard core believers in BTS are the ones that short BitUSD and provide liquidity. Now they are being affected, and leaving BTS altogether, cutting their losses.

Now they are leaving?

That is a weird statement ... they have been leaving for months but hey... only those that work and being paid are considered to be contributing to Bitshares... the ones that have been warning for 6+ mo. and/or risking their money in a broken system are just complainers...

F*en idiots - bitAssets 3.0 is months and months away... and the affiliate program gig - a total joke that will never work as a payment system for everything.
In the mean time (6-9 mo. or so) let's continue killing the ones that are actually risking something to produce the actual product...they are not important...they are not paid by the blockchain....

[edit]
And btw the 30 days rule is not the issue....it is just the trigger that makes the overexposed bulls  face reality...the real issues are 200% collateral from shorts( plus a soft collateral  mind you) and a bug persistent for 2 months with no urgency to fix it....which is making expiring shorts (not the called ones) pay 10% penalty. But why hurry to fix it.?!...may 5 is fine as well  and for less than 200% collateral?...let them fools wait for bitA 3.0....

Well if this is the case I've been watching you talk about the problems for quite some time.  So I can vouche that you've been ringing the bell.
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Offline bitmeat

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Re: 30d COVER DESIGN HAS BEEN the BIGGEST BUG to KILL BTS!!!
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2015, 01:34:46 AM »
My guess: the hard core believers in BTS are the ones that short BitUSD and provide liquidity. Now they are being affected, and leaving BTS altogether, cutting their losses.

Clarification: This was my interpretation as to what the OP meant. That was not my opinion.

Offline starspirit

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Re: 30d COVER DESIGN HAS BEEN the BIGGEST BUG to KILL BTS!!!
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2015, 02:04:31 AM »
My guess: the hard core believers in BTS are the ones that short BitUSD and provide liquidity. Now they are being affected, and leaving BTS altogether, cutting their losses.

Now they are leaving?

That is a weird statement ... they have been leaving for months but hey... only those that work and being paid are considered to be contributing to Bitshares... the ones that have been warning for 6+ mo. and/or risking their money in a broken system are just complainers...

F*en idiots - bitAssets 3.0 is months and months away... and the affiliate program gig - a total joke that will never work as a payment system for everything.
In the mean time (6-9 mo. or so) let's continue killing the ones that are actually risking something to produce the actual product...they are not important...they are not paid by the blockchain....

[edit]
And btw the 30 days rule is not the issue....it is just the trigger that makes the overexposed bulls  face reality...the real issues are 200% collateral from shorts( plus a soft collateral  mind you) and a bug persistent for 2 months with no urgency to fix it....which is making expiring shorts (not the called ones) pay 10% penalty. But why hurry to fix it.?!...may 5 is fine as well  and for less than 200% collateral?...let them fools wait for bitA 3.0....

tonyk, you have certainly raised the bias against shorts often in the past. It's a tricky one, I think, because strictly there is an asymmetry between the demands of the two parties - on the one hand, bitUSD and its ilk are not really trading positions at all from the perspective of the target market for "longs" - they are deliberately designed as a non-expiring, safe, fungible currency unit, which places heavy constraints on the asset structure. Whereas the shorts delivering the product on the other side are traders that want greater leverage and flexibility. Two different needs and two different mindsets. If a bitUSD was simply a long trading position on currency, it could be leveraged on margin and expired on both sides, like traditional forwards or CFDs, and be symmetric for both parties. Unfortunately its not.

What do you think is the best way to resolve this?

I am beginning to think it is actually possible to have a floating common interest rate that could be allowed to become negative, so that shorts could get paid to carry positions if that's what was required for supply and demand to match. At least then shorts could be compensated for carrying higher collateral. Would that be a sufficient solution?

Or how about if the required collateral floated in a completely unconstrained manner with changes in market supply and demand? Then when shorts demand lower collateral requirements, they could get it, as long as this was acceptable to the other side of the market. But when demand is too low, shorts would need to be much more competitive on the collateral they offer. Could that be an avenue worth exploring?

Feel free to suggest other avenues of exploration. Interested in your thoughts on this.

Ggozzo

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Re: 30d COVER DESIGN HAS BEEN the BIGGEST BUG to KILL BTS!!!
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2015, 02:13:50 AM »
My guess: the hard core believers in BTS are the ones that short BitUSD and provide liquidity. Now they are being affected, and leaving BTS altogether, cutting their losses.

Now they are leaving?

That is a weird statement ... they have been leaving for months but hey... only those that work and being paid are considered to be contributing to Bitshares... the ones that have been warning for 6+ mo. and/or risking their money in a broken system are just complainers...

F*en idiots - bitAssets 3.0 is months and months away... and the affiliate program gig - a total joke that will never work as a payment system for everything.
In the mean time (6-9 mo. or so) let's continue killing the ones that are actually risking something to produce the actual product...they are not important...they are not paid by the blockchain....

[edit]
And btw the 30 days rule is not the issue....it is just the trigger that makes the overexposed bulls  face reality...the real issues are 200% collateral from shorts( plus a soft collateral  mind you) and a bug persistent for 2 months with no urgency to fix it....which is making expiring shorts (not the called ones) pay 10% penalty. But why hurry to fix it.?!...may 5 is fine as well  and for less than 200% collateral?...let them fools wait for bitA 3.0....

I have been here since the beginning of PTS and am now leaving.  Back on March 27th, I decided I would short what BTS I had left since I converted some back to BTC post merger.  This would be my first time shorting.  I figured the market is probably near bottom  and if it wasn't, I'd cover at a minimal loss.  So I shorted 338 bitUSD. It left me with a couple K of BTS in my wallet.  I have been following this project avidly and frequented the forms.  Nowhere, and I mean nowhere did I ever read that you had to have or buy bitUSD in excess to cover what you shorted.  So now, instead of losing 10% of my BTS, I lost 40% because I was stuck in the short trade and had no other BTS to but bitUSD to cover my position even though I locked up twice the BTS I used to short.  My collateral was 9 times the BTS I needed to cover the loss at the time, but in couldn't use it.  Yes, I would have been jumping for joy if the market went the other way, but I would've still been confused as to why the collateral is locked and the trade can't be closed without purchasing more bitUSD.  Then not only am I locked in, I get bent over even more with a 10%  fee? Wtf.  I wonder how many have been screwed with the force cover and for the market to rebound back the following days.

Offline starspirit

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Re: 30d COVER DESIGN HAS BEEN the BIGGEST BUG to KILL BTS!!!
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2015, 02:41:49 AM »
My guess: the hard core believers in BTS are the ones that short BitUSD and provide liquidity. Now they are being affected, and leaving BTS altogether, cutting their losses.

Now they are leaving?

That is a weird statement ... they have been leaving for months but hey... only those that work and being paid are considered to be contributing to Bitshares... the ones that have been warning for 6+ mo. and/or risking their money in a broken system are just complainers...

F*en idiots - bitAssets 3.0 is months and months away... and the affiliate program gig - a total joke that will never work as a payment system for everything.
In the mean time (6-9 mo. or so) let's continue killing the ones that are actually risking something to produce the actual product...they are not important...they are not paid by the blockchain....

[edit]
And btw the 30 days rule is not the issue....it is just the trigger that makes the overexposed bulls  face reality...the real issues are 200% collateral from shorts( plus a soft collateral  mind you) and a bug persistent for 2 months with no urgency to fix it....which is making expiring shorts (not the called ones) pay 10% penalty. But why hurry to fix it.?!...may 5 is fine as well  and for less than 200% collateral?...let them fools wait for bitA 3.0....

I have been here since the beginning of PTS and am now leaving.  Back on March 27th, I decided I would short what BTS I had left since I converted some back to BTC post merger.  This would be my first time shorting.  I figured the market is probably near bottom  and if it wasn't, I'd cover at a minimal loss.  So I shorted 338 bitUSD. It left me with a couple K of BTS in my wallet.  I have been following this project avidly and frequented the forms.  Nowhere, and I mean nowhere did I ever read that you had to have or buy bitUSD in excess to cover what you shorted.  So now, instead of losing 10% of my BTS, I lost 40% because I was stuck in the short trade and had no other BTS to but bitUSD to cover my position even though I locked up twice the BTS I used to short.  My collateral was 9 times the BTS I needed to cover the loss at the time, but in couldn't use it.  Yes, I would have been jumping for joy if the market went the other way, but I would've still been confused as to why the collateral is locked and the trade can't be closed without purchasing more bitUSD.  Then not only am I locked in, I get bent over even more with a 10%  fee? Wtf.  I wonder how many have been screwed with the force cover and for the market to rebound back the following days.

I've been thinking about this issue too, because I agree that shorts should not be forced to buy outside to cover if they have collateral available for that purpose. I think its possible to have a system of Flexible Collateral where shorts can hold and switch their collateral in different forms in a block-chain account. So for example, in this system it would be possible to switch BTS collateral for bitUSD collateral and close the position. I have recently outlined such a system in my whitepaper. Keeping in mind that the white-paper itself this describes a complete system with both currency and bill/bond market, and that the references to bills are not important in the context discussed here, here is an excerpt:

Potential for Flexible Collateral

In principle it is possible for shorts to meet their obligations through holding collateral in the form of native tokens, currency tokens, and bill tokens of the same or any shorter expiry. This suggests that a system of flexible collateral is possible, where shorts have full control over the form of the collateral held in their account, and are able to switch between these in the markets. This would allow shorts to adjust their leverage up or down as they please without having to change the number of their shorts. It would also allow them to take trading views or yield structure views in their short portfolio.
 
(FYI Full whitepaper here, but note this is personal design, not BM-approved... https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,15880.msg203776.html#msg203776)

Offline btswildpig

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Re: 30d COVER DESIGN HAS BEEN the BIGGEST BUG to KILL BTS!!!
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2015, 02:45:33 AM »
I think the OP is talking about the huge short order in the DEX (I guess)

There is a saying that if the huge short order exist or extended . the price will not rise up again because of the 30 day cover rule .

Because every speculator will be aiming at this fat meat ..... Try everything they can to pick up the body once it get into force settlement . So some evil guy collected lots of BitUSD and forced the huge short order to explode ....

But I have no idea why the huge short order was placed again after the last explosion .... I don't think that's a "believer" in the system ..... Even believers won't have the guts to do that in a weak market like this  . Something is off ....

Again : The short rule sucks for small players like TonyK ..... I get it .  But I have no idea why a big whale like the huge short order will still dare to short knowing he can be targeted because all of the information can be seen on the blockchain . And he did it again and again through the entire down trend . Unless the whale is plain stupid ...
« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 02:53:24 AM by btswildpig »
这个是私人账号,表达的一切言论均不代表任何团队和任何人。This is my personal account , anything I said with this account will be my opinion alone and has nothing to do with any group.

zerosum

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Re: 30d COVER DESIGN HAS BEEN the BIGGEST BUG to KILL BTS!!!
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2015, 02:56:01 AM »
My guess: the hard core believers in BTS are the ones that short BitUSD and provide liquidity. Now they are being affected, and leaving BTS altogether, cutting their losses.

Now they are leaving?

That is a weird statement ... they have been leaving for months but hey... only those that work and being paid are considered to be contributing to Bitshares... the ones that have been warning for 6+ mo. and/or risking their money in a broken system are just complainers...

F*en idiots - bitAssets 3.0 is months and months away... and the affiliate program gig - a total joke that will never work as a payment system for everything.
In the mean time (6-9 mo. or so) let's continue killing the ones that are actually risking something to produce the actual product...they are not important...they are not paid by the blockchain....

[edit]
And btw the 30 days rule is not the issue....it is just the trigger that makes the overexposed bulls  face reality...the real issues are 200% collateral from shorts( plus a soft collateral  mind you) and a bug persistent for 2 months with no urgency to fix it....which is making expiring shorts (not the called ones) pay 10% penalty. But why hurry to fix it.?!...may 5 is fine as well  and for less than 200% collateral?...let them fools wait for bitA 3.0....

I have been here since the beginning of PTS and am now leaving.  Back on March 27th, I decided I would short what BTS I had left since I converted some back to BTC post merger.  This would be my first time shorting.  I figured the market is probably near bottom  and if it wasn't, I'd cover at a minimal loss.  So I shorted 338 bitUSD. It left me with a couple K of BTS in my wallet.  I have been following this project avidly and frequented the forms.  Nowhere, and I mean nowhere did I ever read that you had to have or buy bitUSD in excess to cover what you shorted.  So now, instead of losing 10% of my BTS, I lost 40% because I was stuck in the short trade and had no other BTS to but bitUSD to cover my position even though I locked up twice the BTS I used to short.  My collateral was 9 times the BTS I needed to cover the loss at the time, but in couldn't use it.  Yes, I would have been jumping for joy if the market went the other way, but I would've still been confused as to why the collateral is locked and the trade can't be closed without purchasing more bitUSD.  Then not only am I locked in, I get bent over even more with a 10%  fee? Wtf.  I wonder how many have been screwed with the force cover and for the market to rebound back the following days.

I really do not know what to say....  I do not want the main point to be this but about 30% of the blame is your as well.

I have been fully aware of all the market rules (and become aware of how the bugs work in a day or so, in odds of those rules or not).
I have express my concerns (granted not in response to your posts).

I also suggested the best course of action when I saw your first post regarding the issue. I know my post are generally disregarded as  annoyance and/or nonsense but I asked you precisely what/why do you post this and what you should do if your own interest is at stake. I really, really cannot do much more, as I am not coding this....but I do know you have friends here that could have help by lending some BTS.

I feel your pain...and I try to fight for people that suffer when they know the rules but the rules are not followed and/or the rules are just stupid and or useless.

zerosum

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Re: 30d COVER DESIGN HAS BEEN the BIGGEST BUG to KILL BTS!!!
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2015, 03:26:31 AM »
My guess: the hard core believers in BTS are the ones that short BitUSD and provide liquidity. Now they are being affected, and leaving BTS altogether, cutting their losses.

Now they are leaving?

That is a weird statement ... they have been leaving for months but hey... only those that work and being paid are considered to be contributing to Bitshares... the ones that have been warning for 6+ mo. and/or risking their money in a broken system are just complainers...

F*en idiots - bitAssets 3.0 is months and months away... and the affiliate program gig - a total joke that will never work as a payment system for everything.
In the mean time (6-9 mo. or so) let's continue killing the ones that are actually risking something to produce the actual product...they are not important...they are not paid by the blockchain....

[edit]
And btw the 30 days rule is not the issue....it is just the trigger that makes the overexposed bulls  face reality...the real issues are 200% collateral from shorts( plus a soft collateral  mind you) and a bug persistent for 2 months with no urgency to fix it....which is making expiring shorts (not the called ones) pay 10% penalty. But why hurry to fix it.?!...may 5 is fine as well  and for less than 200% collateral?...let them fools wait for bitA 3.0....

tonyk, you have certainly raised the bias against shorts often in the past. It's a tricky one.
What do you think is the best way to resolve this?


Yes, I have raised the issue (obsessively) in the past and I will continue doing so... and it is not a tricky one.

Shorts are speculators, shorts are risk takers, shorts are the blood that circulates through a thriving system....

Take full use of them....suck every bit of interest or benefit they are willing to provide...

BUT do not do  ANYTHING for no other reason besides KILLLING them... or for no reason at all!


Reasons like:
- Ohh my system will be far more secure if the shorts provided 56,000% collateral (or 200%).... I like it better...it is more secure.
Is a good point from a crying girl, but the truth of the matter is that the shorts provide $200 hard cash to secure $100 loan. Is this makes sense to you? Cause for me it does not....(even at 0% interest)
...but BM (And his long disappeared eye-whisperer A86) said "You are borrowing our precious unprinted bitUSD, so it must be a loan.".....loads of stinking crap in tonyk's world!


*eye-whisperer  - is a special tribute to a special, special friend of mine! Hope he sees it.

« Last Edit: April 29, 2015, 04:02:02 AM by tonyk2 »

Offline starspirit

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Re: 30d COVER DESIGN HAS BEEN the BIGGEST BUG to KILL BTS!!!
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2015, 03:49:02 AM »
This thread is starting to make me question the whole proposition of tokens to be used as stable currency being backed by traders.

Long and short traders can meet easily in symmetric markets where counter parties share common needs for expiry, margining etc. For example, in bills, bonds, commodities and other trading assets, futures, options and other derivatives. But are the counter-parties to a bitUSD just too different? That's not a statement, just a question.

I wonder if currencies are best issued by a fund that represents the common interests of its investors. It could earn a spread from creation and destruction of the currency according to the market's needs, and possibly the urgency of those needs, rather than seeking or obtain leverage as the core value add.

Short speculators could instead operate in the bill and derivative markets.

Just thinking out loud on this one.


zerosum

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Re: 30d COVER DESIGN HAS BEEN the BIGGEST BUG to KILL BTS!!!
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2015, 03:51:54 AM »
@starspirit

As for you propositions, I do not like them on ideological level. (I have no idea if they work or not, btw...)

About the first time the initial pegged-assets met their first obstacles/road blocks; I suggest in essence the same model (jokingly)...I suspect few knew it was that way. It was pretty simple really (and in essence what you want):

- Willing, would be shorters deposit their BTS in the system's create bitAssets account.
- The system sells (and buys back) bitAssets backed by those deposits at the feed.

Smooth and easy.... who needs the market when we have feeds?


 

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