Author Topic: BitAsset 2.0 Requirements & Implied Design  (Read 48468 times)

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Offline jsidhu

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You can simulate "current BitUSD" by having a 15-30 day delay on forced settlement.  With such a massive delay on forced settlement it will rarely be used and all players would have 15 days notice.   It would be very much like todays shorts which have 30 days notice until they are force settled at the price feed (assuming there are any takers).

Hey BM what is your synopsis of the current BitUSD trading?   

It seems we currently have a float of $155k BitUSD: http://coinmarketcap.com/assets/bitusd/#charts
I hope the float will increase significantly somehow with a new design and that supply will increase/decrease gradually without any abrupt creation or destruction of BitUSD.

Right now I only use a webwallet and it seems simplified so I assume I can't short or use any other advanced features?  There is a huge $77k buy-wall at the feed price (assume it's some kind of relative order?)   I see transactions occasionally happen both at the feed and I just did a 1 BitUSD transaction at the market as a test. So I assume shorts have to cover in 30-days so there is some automatic flow at the feed and the rest of the trade happens at the market?  Who is able to purchase at the feed price?   

Anyways it would be great to get feedback to get some ideas from you and others as to what is going on in the current system and some theories of why it operates that way.  Thanks.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

77K buy wall are expired shorts waiting to be filled. Meanwhile the current bitUSD holders are not willing to sell at the feed price, hence the buy wall.  There's a big premium to buy bitUSD right now.
People are starting to sell BitUSD for bts now.. Last few hours saw millions of bts bought at the price feed.

Yeah thanks for the input guys.  Interesting.

So what are the exact mechanics?  BitUSD holders request settlement, wait 30 days and then do they have the option of settling or do positions automatically settle?

I assume you can't request settling at the feed using the web wallet?

I see the wall being taken down right now.  Down to $65.5k.   Will that get the float down below $100k?  Or can part of the wall also represent long term BitUSD holders that just want to hold it for the very long term?

In a bull market I would expect there should be much more BitUSD creation.  I know we are moving to a new platform so people may not be creating any new BitUSD, but I do want to make sure the new BitUSD design encourages a large sustained BitUSD float instead of being created/destroyed abruptly.

Also normally if these large orders were covered at the market, the BTS price should move even more quickly.. I'd rather see more market settlement than feed settlement in general. 

Anyways it's interesting to just observe.
The floating wall is expired shorts waiting to be covered by blockchain so the short can get his collateral back aswell as the bts that was given to take the BitUSD that was created (shorted) which should be someone's profit from 30 days ago.

I'm seeing more BitUSD creation through shorting aswell as ppl selling BitUSD for bts into the floating wall. I think we just started. Some whales are buying all top alts and some may stand out more (ripple due to commonwealth bank news) and bts (if we release good news like exchange, new bitassets proposal etc).. Then we may see the next wave of investors.
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Offline merivercap

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You can simulate "current BitUSD" by having a 15-30 day delay on forced settlement.  With such a massive delay on forced settlement it will rarely be used and all players would have 15 days notice.   It would be very much like todays shorts which have 30 days notice until they are force settled at the price feed (assuming there are any takers).

Hey BM what is your synopsis of the current BitUSD trading?   

It seems we currently have a float of $155k BitUSD: http://coinmarketcap.com/assets/bitusd/#charts
I hope the float will increase significantly somehow with a new design and that supply will increase/decrease gradually without any abrupt creation or destruction of BitUSD.

Right now I only use a webwallet and it seems simplified so I assume I can't short or use any other advanced features?  There is a huge $77k buy-wall at the feed price (assume it's some kind of relative order?)   I see transactions occasionally happen both at the feed and I just did a 1 BitUSD transaction at the market as a test. So I assume shorts have to cover in 30-days so there is some automatic flow at the feed and the rest of the trade happens at the market?  Who is able to purchase at the feed price?   

Anyways it would be great to get feedback to get some ideas from you and others as to what is going on in the current system and some theories of why it operates that way.  Thanks.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

77K buy wall are expired shorts waiting to be filled. Meanwhile the current bitUSD holders are not willing to sell at the feed price, hence the buy wall.  There's a big premium to buy bitUSD right now.
People are starting to sell BitUSD for bts now.. Last few hours saw millions of bts bought at the price feed.

Yeah thanks for the input guys.  Interesting.

So what are the exact mechanics?  BitUSD holders request settlement, wait 30 days and then do they have the option of settling or do positions automatically settle?

I assume you can't request settling at the feed using the web wallet?

I see the wall being taken down right now.  Down to $65.5k.   Will that get the float down below $100k?  Or can part of the wall also represent long term BitUSD holders that just want to hold it for the very long term?

In a bull market I would expect there should be much more BitUSD creation.  I know we are moving to a new platform so people may not be creating any new BitUSD, but I do want to make sure the new BitUSD design encourages a large sustained BitUSD float instead of being created/destroyed abruptly.

Also normally if these large orders were covered at the market, the BTS price should move even more quickly.. I'd rather see more market settlement than feed settlement in general. 

Anyways it's interesting to just observe.
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Offline jsidhu

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You can simulate "current BitUSD" by having a 15-30 day delay on forced settlement.  With such a massive delay on forced settlement it will rarely be used and all players would have 15 days notice.   It would be very much like todays shorts which have 30 days notice until they are force settled at the price feed (assuming there are any takers).

Hey BM what is your synopsis of the current BitUSD trading?   

It seems we currently have a float of $155k BitUSD: http://coinmarketcap.com/assets/bitusd/#charts
I hope the float will increase significantly somehow with a new design and that supply will increase/decrease gradually without any abrupt creation or destruction of BitUSD.

Right now I only use a webwallet and it seems simplified so I assume I can't short or use any other advanced features?  There is a huge $77k buy-wall at the feed price (assume it's some kind of relative order?)   I see transactions occasionally happen both at the feed and I just did a 1 BitUSD transaction at the market as a test. So I assume shorts have to cover in 30-days so there is some automatic flow at the feed and the rest of the trade happens at the market?  Who is able to purchase at the feed price?   

Anyways it would be great to get feedback to get some ideas from you and others as to what is going on in the current system and some theories of why it operates that way.  Thanks.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

77K buy wall are expired shorts waiting to be filled. Meanwhile the current bitUSD holders are not willing to sell at the feed price, hence the buy wall.  There's a big premium to buy bitUSD right now.
People are starting to sell BitUSD for bts now.. Last few hours saw millions of bts bought at the price feed.
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Offline lil_jay890

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You can simulate "current BitUSD" by having a 15-30 day delay on forced settlement.  With such a massive delay on forced settlement it will rarely be used and all players would have 15 days notice.   It would be very much like todays shorts which have 30 days notice until they are force settled at the price feed (assuming there are any takers).

Hey BM what is your synopsis of the current BitUSD trading?   

It seems we currently have a float of $155k BitUSD: http://coinmarketcap.com/assets/bitusd/#charts
I hope the float will increase significantly somehow with a new design and that supply will increase/decrease gradually without any abrupt creation or destruction of BitUSD.

Right now I only use a webwallet and it seems simplified so I assume I can't short or use any other advanced features?  There is a huge $77k buy-wall at the feed price (assume it's some kind of relative order?)   I see transactions occasionally happen both at the feed and I just did a 1 BitUSD transaction at the market as a test. So I assume shorts have to cover in 30-days so there is some automatic flow at the feed and the rest of the trade happens at the market?  Who is able to purchase at the feed price?   

Anyways it would be great to get feedback to get some ideas from you and others as to what is going on in the current system and some theories of why it operates that way.  Thanks.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

77K buy wall are expired shorts waiting to be filled. Meanwhile the current bitUSD holders are not willing to sell at the feed price, hence the buy wall.  There's a big premium to buy bitUSD right now.

Offline eagleeye

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I don'tknow if this was brought up but if possible have the ability to denominate bitassets in bitUSD
you should be able to trade in the bitGOLD:bitUSD market as you can do already ... issue is liquidity..
or do you want to short bitGOLD with bitUSD as collateral?

Golds has been, not going up just finding a bottom or at a bottom.

Offline eagleeye

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I don'tknow if this was brought up but if possible have the ability to denominate bitassets in bitUSD
you should be able to trade in the bitGOLD:bitUSD market as you can do already ... issue is liquidity..
or do you want to short bitGOLD with bitUSD as collateral?

I want to buy bitSHANGHAI in bitUSD or bitYUAN

Offline xeroc

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I don'tknow if this was brought up but if possible have the ability to denominate bitassets in bitUSD
you should be able to trade in the bitGOLD:bitUSD market as you can do already ... issue is liquidity..
or do you want to short bitGOLD with bitUSD as collateral?

Offline merivercap

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You can simulate "current BitUSD" by having a 15-30 day delay on forced settlement.  With such a massive delay on forced settlement it will rarely be used and all players would have 15 days notice.   It would be very much like todays shorts which have 30 days notice until they are force settled at the price feed (assuming there are any takers).

Hey BM what is your synopsis of the current BitUSD trading?   

It seems we currently have a float of $155k BitUSD: http://coinmarketcap.com/assets/bitusd/#charts
I hope the float will increase significantly somehow with a new design and that supply will increase/decrease gradually without any abrupt creation or destruction of BitUSD.

Right now I only use a webwallet and it seems simplified so I assume I can't short or use any other advanced features?  There is a huge $77k buy-wall at the feed price (assume it's some kind of relative order?)   I see transactions occasionally happen both at the feed and I just did a 1 BitUSD transaction at the market as a test. So I assume shorts have to cover in 30-days so there is some automatic flow at the feed and the rest of the trade happens at the market?  Who is able to purchase at the feed price?   

Anyways it would be great to get feedback to get some ideas from you and others as to what is going on in the current system and some theories of why it operates that way.  Thanks.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     


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Offline eagleeye

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I don'tknow if this was brought up but if possible have the ability to denominate bitassets in bitUSD

Offline bytemaster

You can simulate "current BitUSD" by having a 15-30 day delay on forced settlement.  With such a massive delay on forced settlement it will rarely be used and all players would have 15 days notice.   It would be very much like todays shorts which have 30 days notice until they are force settled at the price feed (assuming there are any takers).

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Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

Offline xeroc

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I said our current bitusd and new bitusd 2.0 will exist at the same time. The market will choose which one is best
If you were "the market" .. which one would be the best and survive?

Offline lil_jay890

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You do realize that most of the benefits will be the same for any other pegged crypto? If they don't charge a premium then it is game over. for us.

So these hypothetical "other" pegged crypto's with no premium all depend upon a market maker willing to take a financial loss.
 

You are right, in fact, it is already game over for BitShares.  You are trying to make a trustless "Stable-coin" when the rest of us here, who are against this proposal (due to the premium), would rather trust a group of people to provide liquidity for us (like how the highly liquid NuBits killed BitUSD the first time because the centralized team was trustworthy to provide liquidity and not steal your coins) so that the price does not fluctuate more than 1% either way.

The future is in centralized trusted third party liquidity providers like our Ethereum-BitUSD stable-coin that can be both bought and sold for $1.

So like Little Jay stated:  It is already game over for BitShares because nothing beats centralized stable solutions.  Behold Ethereum USD, the BitUSD killer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVDSjR0N4ho#t=5m46s

"First it will be completely centralized, like me and three (anonymous for your protection) others will own all the shares in the market maker (liquidity provider business) in the beginning, and you can trust us to not run off with your money, and over time, we will eventually distribute the ownership shares all over the world.  Just trust us  ;) "

Sorry BitShares, nobody is interested in trustless platforms like yours and bitcoin's.  Case in point:  Ripple has only gained ground on bitcoin over the course of its short lifespan, and when Ethereum comes out with it's centralized Ether BitUSD, then you might as well pull the plug on your automatic computerized and trustless market maker solution.

Little Jay knows.  Heed his warnings and concede your trustless imperfect market maker for a trusted and perfectly pegged honorable human market maker, or like he says, it's "game over" for you (because we will not charge you a premium)(ever)(trust us)(we will take good care of you and your family for you)

It was actually sumantso that said that stuff... Bytemaster just made a mistake when he tried to edit a quoted post by me.

I said our current bitusd and new bitusd 2.0 will exist at the same time. The market will choose which one is best

Offline merivercap

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We can lower the feed price such that the average trading price is $1.00 and that has always been my stance.  Adjusting the feed will adjust the average trade price and the premium is always relative to the feed. 

This somehow sounds better, but I'm not sure I fully understand.

It all comes down to a choice on how you want the BitUSD holder to *pay* for their liquidity.   Do they pay up front when they buy it at a premium, or do they pay on the back end when they sell it at a discount? 

There is NO WAY AROUND IT.   Liquidity has a price proportional to market depth and volatility. 
I have to think about this more.  I'm not sure about the notion that the BitUSD holder has to 'pay'. 

In general I think if we had a balanced design we would have more trading, liquidity & BitUSD creation.   My concern is if the design gives BitUSD holders any extra liquidity (ie. user-generated settlements/large forced-settlements), there will be far less BitUSD creation and higher premiums. It would be great if we just had a consistent long-term float of BitUSD creation/shorts.   Wouldn't a balanced design allow for trades to occur at times above or below the price feed and wouldn't settlement at the price feed encourage trades towards it?

Again I have to think about things more because I may be misunderstanding some of the issues and might be stuck looking at this from a different perspective. 

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Offline Ben Mason

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You do realize that most of the benefits will be the same for any other pegged crypto? If they don't charge a premium then it is game over. for us.

So these hypothetical "other" pegged crypto's with no premium all depend upon a market maker willing to take a financial loss.
 

You are right, in fact, it is already game over for BitShares.  You are trying to make a trustless "Stable-coin" when the rest of us here, who are against this proposal (due to the premium), would rather trust a group of people to provide liquidity for us (like how the highly liquid NuBits killed BitUSD the first time because the centralized team was trustworthy to provide liquidity and not steal your coins) so that the price does not fluctuate more than 1% either way.

The future is in centralized trusted third party liquidity providers like our Ethereum-BitUSD stable-coin that can be both bought and sold for $1.

So like Little Jay stated:  It is already game over for BitShares because nothing beats centralized stable solutions.  Behold Ethereum USD, the BitUSD killer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVDSjR0N4ho#t=5m46s

"First it will be completely centralized, like me and three (anonymous for your protection) others will own all the shares in the market maker (liquidity provider business) in the beginning, and you can trust us to not run off with your money, and over time, we will eventually distribute the ownership shares all over the world.  Just trust us  ;) "

Sorry BitShares, nobody is interested in trustless platforms like yours and bitcoin's.  Case in point:  Ripple has only gained ground on bitcoin over the course of its short lifespan, and when Ethereum comes out with it's centralized Ether BitUSD, then you might as well pull the plug on your automatic computerized and trustless market maker solution.

Little Jay knows.  Heed his warnings and concede your trustless imperfect market maker for a trusted and perfectly pegged honorable human market maker, or like he says, it's "game over" for you (because we will not charge you a premium)(ever)(trust us)(we will take good care of you and your family for you)

lol....It does seem to come down to this over and over again.  So let's stick with our foundational principals every time and watch the competition make the same old mistakes and run into the same old walls.  Meanwhile, innovation and integrity will give our network effect resilience, scope, credibility and durability.  Earth, powered by Bitshares.

Offline maqifrnswa

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What are your concerns about using feed to adjust premium over the peg?

In ELI5 fashion (because this is intriguing but I'm not sure I understand how it is supposed to work)... so the covering bitUSD buy wall will move based on how far the last trade was from the feed. Is this just so those that want to sell/short bitUSD have an incentive to short up to the feed if they want liquidity? If I have bitUSD, why would I ever do a forced call at a large premium when I can just place my sell wall at the feed which will pull the buy wall up to me? Or is this the intention of the system, to not have people use the forced covers and thus eliminate the "fee" for maintaining liquidity?

EDIT: I posted the same time as starspirit, and have the same conclusion
"...I can't see why the market would price this in. If the market is at a premium, then the settlement mechanism is not needed. By the time the settlement mechanism is needed and used, the price must be at a discount where there is no longer a settlement fee. So there is no need for any settlement fee to ever be paid, nor any buyer to price in the risk of a higher fee, no matter how high the premium. So how would this affect supply or demand?"
« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 01:09:17 am by maqifrnswa »
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