Author Topic: BitAsset 2.0 Requirements & Implied Design  (Read 49241 times)

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Offline starspirit

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What are your concerns about using feed to adjust premium over the peg?
I don't understand how you intend for it to work. My impression, please correct if its wrong, is that as the premium grows, you drop the price feed below its "fair" price (like a fee on settlements) and as the premium contracts, you lift it back toward the "fair" price (lower the "settlement fee"). Is that correct?

If it is, then I have a concern with it. For any static settlement fee, I agree the average trading price would equilibrate at a different level. The possible problem is that when it is dynamic the market may not price it in because it never comes into force, as here:

...I can't see why the market would price this in. If the market is at a premium, then the settlement mechanism is not needed. By the time the settlement mechanism is needed and used, the price must be at a discount where there is no longer a settlement fee. So there is no need for any settlement fee to ever be paid, nor any buyer to price in the risk of a higher fee, no matter how high the premium. So how would this affect supply or demand?

Offline bytemaster

What are your concerns about using feed to adjust premium over the peg?
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Offline starspirit

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You do realize that most of the benefits will be the same for any other pegged crypto? If they don't charge a premium then it is game over. for us.

What many of you are missing is that it is not economically possible to have a tight peg in a thin market when one of the assets is a volatile crypto currency.

So these hypothetical "other" pegged crypto's with no premium all depend upon a market maker willing to take a financial loss.

We can lower the feed price such that the average trading price is $1.00 and that has always been my stance.  Adjusting the feed will adjust the average trade price and the premium is always relative to the feed. 

It all comes down to a choice on how you want the BitUSD holder to *pay* for their liquidity.   Do they pay up front when they buy it at a premium, or do they pay on the back end when they sell it at a discount? 

There is NO WAY AROUND IT.   Liquidity has a price proportional to market depth and volatility. 

After you factor out the liquidity price all that is left is "speculative demand".   In a bull market shorts "pay interest" by shorting below the cost of providing liquidity resulting in a narrower spread.  In a bear market longs must pay more for "price insurance".

Interest rates can be used to stabilize the supply / demand created by speculation but this stabilization is fleeting because anyone who buys for the interest rate is exposed to interest rate risks.  So whether it is interest rate risk or premium change risks it all works out to be the same thing to traders.   

 

Liquidity constraints in the underlying crypto mean that spreads are always inevitable around the peg, deviating between discounts and premiums. However, there are two key ways to minimise those spreads within that constraint:

i) offering the ability for arbitrage, and
ii) providing incentive for market makers.

Arbitrage is the key to tight pegging. Exchange traded funds provide convertibility (subject to a transaction cost that can reflect liquidity) to their Authorised Parties to maintain close pegging to NAV. CFD providers provide tight spreads because they can arbitrage their book in the external market. I think offering a means of convertibility is essential to get a peg to operate effectively.

Market-makers or spread-traders, trading between bitUSD and USD, could be incentivised to step in where their cost is lower than that of the arbitragers (as they do not bear a spread cost on BTS). They are incentivised because they know there are arbitragers sitting in the wings limiting the variation against them, and possibly because there is a mechanism (e.g. yield) to return value toward parity.

Even with all this, there must always be deviation around the peg. In theory this could be materially reduced by backing a bitUSD alternative with BTC rather than BTS once the tools are in place to minimise counterparty risk.

On a separate point - I have raised concerns about the idea of using the feed price to dynamically adjust the average trading level. I would appreciate learning more about this.



Offline starspirit

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bytemaster,

What about this solution to please everyone?

1. Have bitUSD centred on parity (there is a liquidity spread around parity)

2. Create a couponUSD for merchant use that is convertible both ways by the block-chain at 1.06 bitUSD

If users want to use bitUSD with external merchants, they convert bitUSD to couponUSD at a 6% premium and spend it. The payment processor then converts the couponUSD back to bitUSD, sells bitUSD for USD near parity, pays the merchant and keeps the extra 6%+/-.

The advantages of this approach are:

i) We still have a parity centred bitUSD that has greater utility in a broad swathe of applications
ii) Payment processors facilitating trade with merchants are satisfied they get their cut
iii) The free market can determine what relative demand there is for both bitUSD and couponUSD
iv) It makes more sense to the market that bitUSD tracks a dollar, and there is a separate coupon program for dealing with merchants

The liquidity spread is no greater than the liquidity spread that would be experienced if we tried to create a bitUSD that trades around a 6% premium, because the same liquidity issues you raise exist whether we choose to centre trading around $1.00, $1.06 or any other level. So payment processors experience profit risk in the size of their cut that is also no greater than would be the case by using a bitUSD centred on $1.06.

[As an aside, for those arguing that a bitUSD should trade at a premium to $1 because it is a premium means of payment, it should be clear from the above that this is a bogus argument. A bitUSD retains all the same benefits whether it is centred around $1 or $1.06. In the approach above, the coupon instrument is not better than a bitUSD, it is simply an instrument to ensure payment facilitators get their cut.]
« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 01:09:47 am by starspirit »

Offline Pheonike

You do realize that most of the benefits will be the same for any other pegged crypto? If they don't charge a premium then it is game over. for us.


I just wanted to point out that it is in fact sumantso's statement you have quoted here bytemaster (a quote from sumantso pulled out of one of lil_jay890's posts).

The decision is between a centralized pegged usd with counterparty risk vs a decentralized pegged usd with free market risk.

Offline hadrian

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You do realize that most of the benefits will be the same for any other pegged crypto? If they don't charge a premium then it is game over. for us.


I just wanted to point out that it is in fact sumantso's statement you have quoted here bytemaster (a quote from sumantso pulled out of one of lil_jay890's posts).
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Offline bytemaster

You do realize that most of the benefits will be the same for any other pegged crypto? If they don't charge a premium then it is game over. for us.

What many of you are missing is that it is not economically possible to have a tight peg in a thin market when one of the assets is a volatile crypto currency.

So these hypothetical "other" pegged crypto's with no premium all depend upon a market maker willing to take a financial loss.

We can lower the feed price such that the average trading price is $1.00 and that has always been my stance.  Adjusting the feed will adjust the average trade price and the premium is always relative to the feed. 

It all comes down to a choice on how you want the BitUSD holder to *pay* for their liquidity.   Do they pay up front when they buy it at a premium, or do they pay on the back end when they sell it at a discount? 

There is NO WAY AROUND IT.   Liquidity has a price proportional to market depth and volatility. 

After you factor out the liquidity price all that is left is "speculative demand".   In a bull market shorts "pay interest" by shorting below the cost of providing liquidity resulting in a narrower spread.  In a bear market longs must pay more for "price insurance".

Interest rates can be used to stabilize the supply / demand created by speculation but this stabilization is fleeting because anyone who buys for the interest rate is exposed to interest rate risks.  So whether it is interest rate risk or premium change risks it all works out to be the same thing to traders.   

 

For the latest updates checkout my blog: http://bytemaster.bitshares.org
Anything said on these forums does not constitute an intent to create a legal obligation or contract between myself and anyone else.   These are merely my opinions and I reserve the right to change them at any time.

sumantso

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BitUSD needs to have an absolute floor of parity with real USD so people will know for sure its at least as good as a real dollar.
Merchants should always price product at face value and pocket the rest.
People will be willing to pay a premium for this Super dollar as it has superior qualitys like.
- Full and exclusive access to your bitUSD
- Privacy (nobody knows how much you have)
- Easy fast global payment to anywhere in the world (paypal doesn't allow some countries)
- better interest paid on your savings (german bonds pay negative interest right now)

However saying all that I believe the collateral for bitUSD needs to be bitcoin instead of bitshares due to its market depth, liquidity, stability and acceptance as an asset class. This will be possible hopefully with sidechains. This will hurt the bitshares price alot but if it isn't implemented someone else will and that newly created bitcoin backed bitusd will surpersede bitUSD.

You do realize that most of the benefits will be the same for any other pegged crypto? If they don't charge a premium then it is game over. for us.

The current bitUSD will still be around even after the new assets are released. The market will decide which one is best... Our currently pegged one or our new unpegged liquid one

The current BitAssets is flawed and needs some simplification and rule changes to work.

Wait till BTS gets forked and someone tweaks the current BitAssets while we remain with the expensive BitUSD 2.0

Offline lil_jay890

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BitUSD needs to have an absolute floor of parity with real USD so people will know for sure its at least as good as a real dollar.
Merchants should always price product at face value and pocket the rest.
People will be willing to pay a premium for this Super dollar as it has superior qualitys like.
- Full and exclusive access to your bitUSD
- Privacy (nobody knows how much you have)
- Easy fast global payment to anywhere in the world (paypal doesn't allow some countries)
- better interest paid on your savings (german bonds pay negative interest right now)

However saying all that I believe the collateral for bitUSD needs to be bitcoin instead of bitshares due to its market depth, liquidity, stability and acceptance as an asset class. This will be possible hopefully with sidechains. This will hurt the bitshares price alot but if it isn't implemented someone else will and that newly created bitcoin backed bitusd will surpersede bitUSD.

You do realize that most of the benefits will be the same for any other pegged crypto? If they don't charge a premium then it is game over. for us.

The current bitUSD will still be around even after the new assets are released. The market will decide which one is best... Our currently pegged one or our new unpegged liquid one

sumantso

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BitUSD needs to have an absolute floor of parity with real USD so people will know for sure its at least as good as a real dollar.
Merchants should always price product at face value and pocket the rest.
People will be willing to pay a premium for this Super dollar as it has superior qualitys like.
- Full and exclusive access to your bitUSD
- Privacy (nobody knows how much you have)
- Easy fast global payment to anywhere in the world (paypal doesn't allow some countries)
- better interest paid on your savings (german bonds pay negative interest right now)

However saying all that I believe the collateral for bitUSD needs to be bitcoin instead of bitshares due to its market depth, liquidity, stability and acceptance as an asset class. This will be possible hopefully with sidechains. This will hurt the bitshares price alot but if it isn't implemented someone else will and that newly created bitcoin backed bitusd will surpersede bitUSD.

You do realize that most of the benefits will be the same for any other pegged crypto? If they don't charge a premium then it is game over. for us.

Offline starspirit

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However saying all that I believe the collateral for bitUSD needs to be bitcoin instead of bitshares due to its market depth, liquidity, stability and acceptance as an asset class. This will be possible hopefully with sidechains. This will hurt the bitshares price alot but if it isn't implemented someone else will and that newly created bitcoin backed bitusd will surpersede bitUSD.
Welcome jonnybitcoin.
I agree, that's a big commercial opportunity when we have the tech in place. Some previous discussion raised here:
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,15957.msg204725.html#msg204725
It could be a huge boon to the BTS price too.

Offline JonnyB

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BitUSD needs to have an absolute floor of parity with real USD so people will know for sure its at least as good as a real dollar.
Merchants should always price product at face value and pocket the rest.
People will be willing to pay a premium for this Super dollar as it has superior qualitys like.
- Full and exclusive access to your bitUSD
- Privacy (nobody knows how much you have)
- Easy fast global payment to anywhere in the world (paypal doesn't allow some countries)
- better interest paid on your savings (german bonds pay negative interest right now)

However saying all that I believe the collateral for bitUSD needs to be bitcoin instead of bitshares due to its market depth, liquidity, stability and acceptance as an asset class. This will be possible hopefully with sidechains. This will hurt the bitshares price alot but if it isn't implemented someone else will and that newly created bitcoin backed bitusd will surpersede bitUSD. 
I run the @bitshares twitter handle
twitter.com/bitshares

Offline starspirit

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On whether we should have have a bitUSD centred on parity or at a premium, assuming both are possible:

I do not understand all the subtleties of merchant, payment processor and other third party operations. However, it seems to me that everything that can be done with a bitUSD trading at a premium can also be accomplished with a bitUSD trading at parity, only with different labels on the currency flows. For example the equivalent financial result for all parties can be achieved by having a bitUSD centred on parity, with consumers paying the fee directly to the payment processor. However, maybe bytemaster is right, based on his advice, that the way in which fees are labelled or packaged in the marketplace makes a big difference to actual behaviour. I can't argue with the way other people think.

I do have a concern however that a bitUSD at a premium reduces its utility for a number of other application areas that I touched on in my previous post. A bitUSD trading around parity would serve these applications much better IMO. Regardless of the direction taken in the near term, I would like to continue pursing the method for a bitUSD based around parity, because I personally think it would give bitShares the best long term result.

On whether it is possible to have a bitUSD that trades close to parity:

   I reject the notion that we can establish a peg with 0 premium and 0 volatility in the premium and those seeking this perfection are seeking the impossible.   
This is knocking down a straw man, and perhaps you have misunderstood my goal. What I wish to see is bitUSD that centres around parity rather than a premium. Clearly there will be deviation either side of that with movement in supply and demand, at least to the point that arbitragers are incentivised to jump in and prevent larger deviations. This is the model I am working toward. There is no plan for 0 volatility.

Do you think this notion is impossible? I don't have enough evidence of that yet.

  Lets take a "perfect" and "balanced" system of a simple prediction market that settles once per year at a "perfectly fair" price.    In this prediction market both sides have the exact same liquidity and expectation of profit.  Any deviations from the value of $1.00 is a profit opportunity for both parties.   

  Under such a system what is the "volatility" of the premium?   It is proportional to the holding cost until settlement combined with the demand for leverage on BTS.   I would expect a range around $1.00 that could be off by over 10% at times.    So even with guaranteed settlement at a fair price on a specific date in the future you do not get an asset that is always worth $1.00 with a stable premium.    The best we can do is get an asset that is approximately worth $1.00 and the volatility in the premium is beyond our control. 

This is not the most useful comparison for bitUSD. What you describe here is a futures contract, that expires and settles at a fixed date in the future. The fair price for a futures contract is not equal to the spot value of the underlying asset, because of the cost of carry. That is, the difference between the funding cost related to the currency and that of the BTS in which it is settled. The market will price this in when it compares the cost of establishing a position with similar exposure in the external market. The fair value for the future will also fluctuate as the funding costs in these markets fluctuates. None of this means that the future is trading at wide variations from its fair value, its just that its fair value is not parity. In a different context, we would not argue for example that a discount bond is trading at large deviation from its fair value because it is trading at a large discount to its par value.

In these cases however, large deviations from the "fair value" are contained by the action of arbitragers, and that is really what is important.

A bitUSD is a tracking instrument, more like an exchange-traded fund (ETF), in that it does not expire. The fair value of an instrument like this is its underlying asset value. Instruments like ETFs do trade close to the spot value because of the action of arbitragers in those markets. Authorised Parties are granted the ability to exchange units in the fund for units in the underlying asset, making this arbitrage possible. I think a similar mechanism is possible for a bitUSD.

On whether it is possible to have a stable bitUSD premium:


  If the premium is persistently biased by a certain minimum amount then the market will end up adjusting prices to account for that bias.  This "constant bias" can be relatively stable and can be removed by adjusting the feed. 
Would you mind expanding on this mechanism as I still don't understand it? If the idea is to adjust the feed price downward (equivalent to a higher settlement fee) for larger bitUSD premiums, I've raised my concern about that in the link below. However, I could also be at risk of knocking down a straw man if I misunderstand your intended mechanism.
link: https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php/topic,16143.msg210901.html#msg210901

Offline Pheonike


I think we are saying the average users are not going to be using bitusd for their transactions. They are going to use GatewayUSD because that is where they are most likely be converting from FiatUSD in the first place. Most users will not be coming in through BTS or BTC. Therefore it is more important for GatewayUSD to hold the peg to FiatUSD. So BitUSD is going to be traded mostly between Gateways who can use the premium to keep their GatewayUSD pegged FiatUSD.

Offline xeroc

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Yeah, but since whitelisted BitUSD will be most convertable, wouldn't there be a central tendency of whitelisted BitUSD becoming more widely accepted and more transact-able?  This would follow Gresham's Law, that bad money drives out the good money.  I guess I'll save this for the Friday meetup, but I see in the end no one would use non-whitelisted BitUSD because its not accepted in most normal places and the good nonwhitelisted BitUSD would be driven out of existence?  I guess its not so bad since there still exists the option of choice.
AFAIK you can't whitelist bitusd.. you can only do so for UIA .. for instance bitPayUSD ..
it's pretty much the same as what ripple IOUs do .. except that BitShares has a decentralized, market-pegged asset that is NOT an IOU and people can trade bitPayUSD : bitUSD