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Offline Ben Mason

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Fund to help shorters like skyscraperfarms?
« on: May 18, 2015, 11:25:36 AM »

I realise that different people view the risks, taken by individuals to short bitassets into existence, in different ways.  However, it does not sit well with me that some of our community have lost out in some way due to current market mechanics/bugs.  Especially if they have been helping to test the market mechanics or improve liquidity of our products.  I'd like to propose a fund is set up to encourage those that have been damaged and to perhaps help repair any future damage our innovation and testing causes.  I would donate 1000bts to such a fund.  I only have some vague ideas about how the fund would be cared for or how someone would be able to prove damage and call upon the fund.  I really think this is worth considering though.  I realise that devshares seeks to minimise impact on the production version, nevertheless, things may go differently in the live network from time-to-time.

Disclosure - I cannot access my bts funds at this time due to technical difficulties with the client.  I do not have a good enough understanding of the market mechanics to make any sort of judgement on the veracity of potential claims.

Offline Permie

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Re: Fund to help shorters like skyscraperfarms?
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2015, 01:07:11 PM »
I like this idea but rather than relying on altruism and charity to recapitalize shorters could they be encouraged to start a hedge(?) fund?
Instead of just donating them bts, could I lend my bts to them with the expectation that they will pool funds and manage them to make profit. The fund's data could be published so that donators could see that their bts is actually being used to short bitassets and not just hoarded.
The community charity aspect could come from letting the shorters just keep all the profits and give me my bts back later down the road?

Do you think this could achieve the same thing?

I'm thinking something like Cryptohedge that Riverhead and Toast are working on
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=13904.0
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Offline Ben Mason

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Re: Fund to help shorters like skyscraperfarms?
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2015, 01:35:42 PM »
I like this idea but rather than relying on altruism and charity to recapitalize shorters could they be encouraged to start a hedge(?) fund?
Instead of just donating them bts, could I lend my bts to them with the expectation that they will pool funds and manage them to make profit. The fund's data could be published so that donators could see that their bts is actually being used to short bitassets and not just hoarded.
The community charity aspect could come from letting the shorters just keep all the profits and give me my bts back later down the road?

Do you think this could achieve the same thing?

I'm thinking something like Cryptohedge that Riverhead and Toast are working on
https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=13904.0

That sounds brilliant.  A much better idea because it achieves the same with better incentives without having to work out who deserves what etc.

Offline fuzzy

Re: Fund to help shorters like skyscraperfarms?
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2015, 06:42:51 AM »
What if we have something set up where I do hangouts with people who are hurt by bugs.  Since it is generally the people who are hurt by bugs who are the first to know about them, we could pay them for finding the bug from a portion of the 432,000BTS/day that can be put into funding projects?  Of course, there would need to be some way to verify they have been hurt by the bug to receive over a certain amount of funding...which, like you said, would be something we'd have to think about more deeply.

People who find bugs are performing a very important role...so if someone is hurt by a bug and brings it to the community's attention they should be able to get a little bit of funding.  Maybe even have it set up so the people who find bugs and are not hurt by them can receive a reward.  I would personally be happy to help incentivize them to donate a portion of the proceeds from their reward to a pool of funds like this...by creating little public announcements in the Beyond Bitcoin (BTS) hangouts we post, and credit the people who find said bugs--but only if they donate above a certain threshold. 

Thoughts?
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Offline xeroc

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Re: Fund to help shorters like skyscraperfarms?
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2015, 06:51:31 AM »
Agreed ..

BTW, people that have been hurt by the 'cover order - pay high fee' bug will get their money back .. IIRC payed by AGS funds ..
However, I am not sure if speculating in a bear market is considered a software bug ..
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Offline fuzzy

Re: Fund to help shorters like skyscraperfarms?
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2015, 06:59:05 AM »
Agreed ..

BTW, people that have been hurt by the 'cover order - pay high fee' bug will get their money back .. IIRC payed by AGS funds ..
However, I am not sure if speculating in a bear market is considered a software bug ..

Though I have a pretty decent understanding of basic economics, I have to say that I am not a trader...so the bugs that people talk about with respect to this may not be bugs at all.  This is a good point to bring up.  I'd like to hear more discussion on it here.
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Re: Fund to help shorters like skyscraperfarms?
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2015, 07:17:48 AM »
BTW, people that have been hurt by the 'cover order - pay high fee' bug will get their money back .. IIRC payed by AGS funds ..
However, I am not sure if speculating in a bear market is considered a software bug ..

I have been bitten by the "high fee" bug and can confirm that the money was refunded. I'm not aware of any actual bugs where people have suffered financial loss and were not refunded.

Now, people who get themselves into trouble is a completely different thing. Shorters have taken a risk, and have lost (not all of them, probably). Why should they be refunded? If they had won big money, would they have shared it with the community? Probably not.
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Offline Ben Mason

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Re: Fund to help shorters like skyscraperfarms?
« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2015, 07:20:07 AM »
What if we have something set up where I do hangouts with people who are hurt by bugs.  Since it is generally the people who are hurt by bugs who are the first to know about them, we could pay them for finding the bug from a portion of the 432,000BTS/day that can be put into funding projects?  Of course, there would need to be some way to verify they have been hurt by the bug to receive over a certain amount of funding...which, like you said, would be something we'd have to think about more deeply.

People who find bugs are performing a very important role...so if someone is hurt by a bug and brings it to the community's attention they should be able to get a little bit of funding.  Maybe even have it set up so the people who find bugs and are not hurt by them can receive a reward.  I would personally be happy to help incentivize them to donate a portion of the proceeds from their reward to a pool of funds like this...by creating little public announcements in the Beyond Bitcoin (BTS) hangouts we post, and credit the people who find said bugs--but only if they donate above a certain threshold. 

Thoughts?
A reward for bugs is a great idea. We'll need to have a set of guidelines for what constitutes damage and the amount of repair funds that can be called upon for any given bug/market mechanics failure. It is likely that we'd need a core dev to declare when bugs are identified and that a claim for damage is valid or a reward has been earned. Given that everyone should be aware of the disclaimers around using Bitshares products before 1.0, any individual should accept the lion's share of responsibility for damage they incur and that efforts by the community to make any reparations are simply a function of being a part of a community that values them. That should keep people playing nice and ensure expectations are firmly anchored.


Offline Ben Mason

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Re: Fund to help shorters like skyscraperfarms?
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2015, 07:27:54 AM »
BTW, people that have been hurt by the 'cover order - pay high fee' bug will get their money back .. IIRC payed by AGS funds ..
However, I am not sure if speculating in a bear market is considered a software bug ..

I have been bitten by the "high fee" bug and can confirm that the money was refunded. I'm not aware of any actual bugs where people have suffered financial loss and were not refunded.

Now, people who get themselves into trouble is a completely different thing. Shorters have taken a risk, and have lost (not all of them, probably). Why should they be refunded? If they had won big money, would they have shared it with the community? Probably not.

You are quite right. The reason I wanted to help is because I believe that some, like skyscraperfarms were kind of trapped in their position. I really like permie's idea. If there are shorters out there who are motivated to ask willing community members for loans for a fund that can help recapitalise them, then that's probably the best and only way to do it.

Offline xeroc

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Re: Fund to help shorters like skyscraperfarms?
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2015, 07:42:55 AM »
You are quite right. The reason I wanted to help is because I believe that some, like skyscraperfarms were kind of trapped in their position. I really like permie's idea. If there are shorters out there who are motivated to ask willing community members for loans for a fund that can help recapitalise them, then that's probably the best and only way to do it.
If BitShares offered "bonds" .. wouldn't that achieve what you are asking for? That way you could loan to those people at low interest rate without counterparty risk (not that I wouldn't trust skyscraperfarms) ..
So .. how much is publicly know about BitShares offering bonds in the near future? Anyone every approached BM directly?
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