Half-baked Elements of Bitshares 2.0 [first read]

[Xypher]

I think the  entire paypal comparison is flawed because Paypal had given 10 usd to every user that signed up on the platform. Is bitshares doing so ?

A marketer could decide to do so .. e.g. moonstone, or faucet.bitshares.org (cryptonomex) ..
it's up to the marketers
[/quote

The entry barrier gets high in that case imo.
Assuming I spend 100 usd in give aways and noone buys premium, I make no ROI technically. ]

[xeroc]

I think the  entire paypal comparison is flawed because Paypal had given 10 usd to every user that signed up on the platform. Is bitshares doing so ?

A marketer could decide to do so .. e.g. moonstone, or faucet.bitshares.org (cryptonomex) ..
it's up to the marketers

[Xypher]

I don't disagree with most of that, and those are great example uses. I'm not really sure if you're disagreeing with what I said or just the comparison with Paypal, but you acknowledge that the referral program provides an incentive to merchants as well as the reduced fees compared to what some are paying now, but seem to be saying merchants still need some additional financial incentive on top of that? I think that's enough of an incentive, and I think customers also need an incentive.

I'm only disagreeing with the PayPal comparison. I don't think any cryptocurrency will appeal to "normal" users until much later. It's like computers in the 80s. They started off with niche uses and increasingly became more mainstream with time. Cryptocurrency will follow a similar pattern.

I think the best use case is always going to be countries with high inflation or instability of some sort (bail ins). These people literally want an alternative to keeping cash under a mattress. A referral program can go a long way in getting adoption started in places like this.

I think the  entire paypal comparison is flawed because Paypal had given 10 usd to every user that signed up on the platform. Is bitshares doing so ?

[Method-X]

I don't disagree with most of that, and those are great example uses. I'm not really sure if you're disagreeing with what I said or just the comparison with Paypal, but you acknowledge that the referral program provides an incentive to merchants as well as the reduced fees compared to what some are paying now, but seem to be saying merchants still need some additional financial incentive on top of that? I think that's enough of an incentive, and I think customers also need an incentive.

I'm only disagreeing with the PayPal comparison. I don't think any cryptocurrency will appeal to "normal" users until much later. It's like computers in the 80s. They started off with niche uses and increasingly became more mainstream with time. Cryptocurrency will follow a similar pattern.

I think the best use case is always going to be countries with high inflation or instability of some sort (bail ins). These people literally want an alternative to keeping cash under a mattress. A referral program can go a long way in getting adoption started in places like this.

[profitofthegods]

Its a chicken and egs scenario and that makes it difficult, for sure. But they may use it initially for sending money to friends and family, especially with gateways being launched. Hopefully some online shops will start accepting it before too long, and new options such as recurring payments will help with that as will the referral program if those shops think Bitshares may appeal to their customers because they can get paid for introducing them. It will be a slow process at first but it will accelerate as more customers bring more shops on board and more shops introduce more new customers.

The referral program encourages both merchant and user adoption. Merchants integrate bitusd and refer users to the platform (getting paid for doing so). To achieve this dynamic, you must first financially incentivise the merchant to recommend bitusd as a payment option in the first place.

Take porn for example. Porn merchants are known for having to pay outrageous fees (10 - 20 percent). They won't recommend bitcoin because a) it's too volatile and b) recurring payments are impossible. Bitusd offers an alternative that will make them money on referrals, doesn't take 10 - 20 percent, is stable and allows recurring payments. That's a solid sell assuming easy on/off ramps.

Another example is Latin America where demand for USD is high but supply is low. With a referral program, you'll start getting organic user adoption there.

BitShares is not an alternative to PayPal and it won't be for quite some time.

I don't disagree with most of that, and those are great example uses. I'm not really sure if you're disagreeing with what I said or just the comparison with Paypal, but you acknowledge that the referral program provides an incentive to merchants as well as the reduced fees compared to what some are paying now, but seem to be saying merchants still need some additional financial incentive on top of that? I think that's enough of an incentive, and I think customers also need an incentive.

[Method-X]

Its a chicken and egs scenario and that makes it difficult, for sure. But they may use it initially for sending money to friends and family, especially with gateways being launched. Hopefully some online shops will start accepting it before too long, and new options such as recurring payments will help with that as will the referral program if those shops think Bitshares may appeal to their customers because they can get paid for introducing them. It will be a slow process at first but it will accelerate as more customers bring more shops on board and more shops introduce more new customers.

The referral program encourages both merchant and user adoption. Merchants integrate bitusd and refer users to the platform (getting paid for doing so). To achieve this dynamic, you must first financially incentivise the merchant to recommend bitusd as a payment option in the first place.

Take porn for example. Porn merchants are known for having to pay outrageous fees (10 - 20 percent). They won't recommend bitcoin because a) it's too volatile and b) recurring payments are impossible. Bitusd offers an alternative that will make them money on referrals, doesn't take 10 - 20 percent, is stable and allows recurring payments. That's a solid sell assuming easy on/off ramps.

Another example is Latin America where demand for USD is high but supply is low. With a referral program, you'll start getting organic user adoption there.

BitShares is not an alternative to PayPal and it won't be for quite some time.

[Xypher]

3. The referral system is killing the product [while probably being very good tool to sell it], or very actively working on it.

In order to provide decent referral bonuses ($80 per account seems to be the target) the transaction fees are $0.20 for free account (and $100 + $0.04 per transaction for lift time one). Do you really thing the customers will come flying to the system at those levels. [Leaving aside how astronomically high that is for each placed/canceled order on the DEX…not filled just placed]. Do you think customers will jump on the system with $0.20 per transaction when the competition is 10x less? I know a lot of marketer will try to sell it to them to get their $80 bucks, but how many will really use it 10x higher transaction cost (or be happy to pay $100 for the privilege to try it and enjoy normal fees)


Go BTS!

We were pretty bullish on pushing the referral system ourselves, but now we have no choice to back out from integrating it.
I don't see any reason why a kid using paypal would pay 80 USD and use this instead.

3. The referral system is killing the product [while probably being very good tool to sell it], or very actively working on it.

In order to provide decent referral bonuses ($80 per account seems to be the target) the transaction fees are $0.20 for free account (and $100 + $0.04 per transaction for lift time one). Do you really thing the customers will come flying to the system at those levels. [Leaving aside how astronomically high that is for each placed/canceled order on the DEX…not filled just placed]. Do you think customers will jump on the system with $0.20 per transaction when the competition is 10x less? I know a lot of marketer will try to sell it to them to get their $80 bucks, but how many will really use it 10x higher transaction cost (or be happy to pay $100 for the privilege to try it and enjoy normal fees)


Go BTS!

We were pretty bullish on pushing the referral system ourselves, but now we have no choice to back out from integrating it.
I don't see any reason why a kid using paypal would pay 80 USD and use this instead.

So your bowing out?

We were pretty bullish on pushing the referral system ourselves, but now we have no choice to back out from integrating it.
I don't see any reason why a kid using paypal would pay 80 USD and use this instead.

There are lots of things you can't do with PayPal. Their rules are very strict. For example, you can't gamble (among many other use cases).

The user also doesn't need to pay to sign up, just pay more for transaction fees ~$0.4.
If freebieservers refers a customer to BitShares then they will receive ~$80.
Could you offer your service to Bitshares users at a discount to entice new users to sign up and net you another $80?

3. The referral system is killing the product [while probably being very good tool to sell it], or very actively working on it.

In order to provide decent referral bonuses ($80 per account seems to be the target) the transaction fees are $0.20 for free account (and $100 + $0.04 per transaction for lift time one). Do you really thing the customers will come flying to the system at those levels. [Leaving aside how astronomically high that is for each placed/canceled order on the DEX…not filled just placed]. Do you think customers will jump on the system with $0.20 per transaction when the competition is 10x less? I know a lot of marketer will try to sell it to them to get their $80 bucks, but how many will really use it 10x higher transaction cost (or be happy to pay $100 for the privilege to try it and enjoy normal fees)


Go BTS!

We were pretty bullish on pushing the referral system ourselves, but now we have no choice to back out from integrating it.
I don't see any reason why a kid using paypal would pay 80 USD and use this instead.

From what I understand, you could purchase the membership which makes your account its own referrer. Then you can have your own affiliate program where you set a % of the referral fees that goes to an affiliate (i.e. the kid using paypal) that you split with them. As long as the kid doesn't need to have an annual / lifetime membership to take a percent of your referral stream defined by you.

There's a number of things that needs to be noted.


1. Kids barely have any incentive to try a new financial system if the existing system "works" for them. For instance, when we integrated Nxt into our back-end, it was mainly "on-site" . Sure they did do transactions off-site, but the majority of their transaction was on FS' internal system, so unless we create an eco-system that facilitates such transactions for them  (eg :  marketplaces, exchanges or services catering to them) , they would not fall into this

2. The level of entry barrier is pretty high. I saw CCEDK offers debit / credit card to Bitshares in real time but having a user go through that, without a definite ecosystem or a user experience that appeals to them becomes hard.

Now don't get me wrong , start-ups like ours have due incentive in this, provided we have a system that has

1. High number of internal transactions
2. Reduce entry barriers for access to the coins
3. Create an ecosystem that enables  this.

I've done a fair amount of research into this aspect, long before any of the referral news came out. I will be making news in regards to how the system is expected to work pretty soon. Preferably, later today. It will be a sister concern of FS and the largest project to come out from our studio's in a year.

P.s - I've been trying to get in touch with PLS for a month now. We've conversed a bit via skype, but since I don't see those conversations going anywhere, working directly with Bitshares now seems smarter.

[profitofthegods]

Why would a mainstream user use a currency that isn't accepted anywhere?

Its a chicken and egs scenario and that makes it difficult, for sure. But they may use it initially for sending money to friends and family, especially with gateways being launched. Hopefully some online shops will start accepting it before too long, and new options such as recurring payments will help with that as will the referral program if those shops think Bitshares may appeal to their customers because they can get paid for introducing them. It will be a slow process at first but it will accelerate as more customers bring more shops on board and more shops introduce more new customers.

[Method-X]

I think you lack ambition. With a decent set of wallet options 2.0 will be able to start competing against the likes of Paypal. Yes it will probably take a decade or longer to get any major market penetration, but that's no reason not to start now.

I also think it will be difficult to compete against Bitcoin and other cryptos for those markets. Gamblers don't care too much for stable value, buyers of 'alternative' items want strong privacy which isn't really provided by 2.0, and prediction markets are still a very minor use case even for btc.

Why would a mainstream user use a currency that isn't accepted anywhere?

[robrigo]

3. The referral system is killing the product [while probably being very good tool to sell it], or very actively working on it.

In order to provide decent referral bonuses ($80 per account seems to be the target) the transaction fees are $0.20 for free account (and $100 + $0.04 per transaction for lift time one). Do you really thing the customers will come flying to the system at those levels. [Leaving aside how astronomically high that is for each placed/canceled order on the DEX…not filled just placed]. Do you think customers will jump on the system with $0.20 per transaction when the competition is 10x less? I know a lot of marketer will try to sell it to them to get their $80 bucks, but how many will really use it 10x higher transaction cost (or be happy to pay $100 for the privilege to try it and enjoy normal fees)


Go BTS!

We were pretty bullish on pushing the referral system ourselves, but now we have no choice to back out from integrating it.
I don't see any reason why a kid using paypal would pay 80 USD and use this instead.

From what I understand, you could purchase the membership which makes your account its own referrer. Then you can have your own affiliate program where you set a % of the referral fees that goes to an affiliate (i.e. the kid using paypal) that you split with them. As long as the kid doesn't need to have an annual / lifetime membership to take a percent of your referral stream defined by you.

[Permie]

We were pretty bullish on pushing the referral system ourselves, but now we have no choice to back out from integrating it.
I don't see any reason why a kid using paypal would pay 80 USD and use this instead.

There are lots of things you can't do with PayPal. Their rules are very strict. For example, you can't gamble (among many other use cases).

The user also doesn't need to pay to sign up, just pay more for transaction fees ~$0.4.
If freebieservers refers a customer to BitShares then they will receive ~$80.
Could you offer your service to Bitshares users at a discount to entice new users to sign up and net you another $80?

[profitofthegods]

BitUSD and other market pegged assets will likely be used in the same ways bitcoin is currently used. Prediction markets, gambling, buying "alternative" items, etc. It won't spread to mom and dad until a decade of more out. Please note that I'm not encouraging these activities, I'm just being brutally logical.

I think you lack ambition. With a decent set of wallet options 2.0 will be able to start competing against the likes of Paypal. Yes it will probably take a decade or longer to get any major market penetration, but that's no reason not to start now.

I also think it will be difficult to compete against Bitcoin and other cryptos for those markets. Gamblers don't care too much for stable value, buyers of 'alternative' items want strong privacy which isn't really provided by 2.0, and prediction markets are still a very minor use case even for btc.

[Method-X]

We were pretty bullish on pushing the referral system ourselves, but now we have no choice to back out from integrating it.
I don't see any reason why a kid using paypal would pay 80 USD and use this instead.

There are lots of things you can't do with PayPal. Their rules are very strict. For example, you can't gamble (among many other use cases).

[topcandle]

3. The referral system is killing the product [while probably being very good tool to sell it], or very actively working on it.

In order to provide decent referral bonuses ($80 per account seems to be the target) the transaction fees are $0.20 for free account (and $100 + $0.04 per transaction for lift time one). Do you really thing the customers will come flying to the system at those levels. [Leaving aside how astronomically high that is for each placed/canceled order on the DEX…not filled just placed]. Do you think customers will jump on the system with $0.20 per transaction when the competition is 10x less? I know a lot of marketer will try to sell it to them to get their $80 bucks, but how many will really use it 10x higher transaction cost (or be happy to pay $100 for the privilege to try it and enjoy normal fees)


Go BTS!

We were pretty bullish on pushing the referral system ourselves, but now we have no choice to back out from integrating it.
I don't see any reason why a kid using paypal would pay 80 USD and use this instead.

So your bowing out?

[Xypher]

3. The referral system is killing the product [while probably being very good tool to sell it], or very actively working on it.

In order to provide decent referral bonuses ($80 per account seems to be the target) the transaction fees are $0.20 for free account (and $100 + $0.04 per transaction for lift time one). Do you really thing the customers will come flying to the system at those levels. [Leaving aside how astronomically high that is for each placed/canceled order on the DEX…not filled just placed]. Do you think customers will jump on the system with $0.20 per transaction when the competition is 10x less? I know a lot of marketer will try to sell it to them to get their $80 bucks, but how many will really use it 10x higher transaction cost (or be happy to pay $100 for the privilege to try it and enjoy normal fees)


Go BTS!

We were pretty bullish on pushing the referral system ourselves, but now we have no choice to back out from integrating it.
I don't see any reason why a kid using paypal would pay 80 USD and use this instead.